People obtaining railway keys and breaking into cabs

[Efini92]

It has of course slid into the pile of, "Well, we've let a contract for it, and now the contractor is being slow." The initial requirements included some very unrealistic requirements. And of course, any form of Card Access system will usually bring more problems than in solves.



So it would do nothing to change the risk of interference with the train, access to the middle cab on units which have them on LUL can cause some serious issues if you know where the applicable controls are. Nor would it do anything to address the other issues if one had a "J" door key to access other non-passenger areas on other fleets.

Yes, I'm being cryptic, and yes it's for a reason.



But of course the BRIC (Brake Reservoir Isolation Cock), and BRV (Brake Release Valve) that I suspect you're referring to (Not the Brake Isolation Cock that is in a different location and has no key to access) are in that position for a good reason. But now that Moorgate Tunnels are not open to passenger trains on Network Rail, that reason no longer exists.

The BRV is a brake cylinder isolation cock which isolates the air supply from the reservoir to the brakes.
I understand the reason for them being inside the train, but they should be better protected.

Precisely. So when I’m travelling to and from work with a BR1 key around my neck, is that justified or not?

I’d say so.

 

[bramling]

The BRV is a brake cylinder isolation cock which isolates the air supply from the reservoir to the brakes.
I understand the reason for them being inside the train, but they should be better protected.

I’d say so.

I don’t see why anyone carrying a key around with them should be a problem. Using one is of course another matter.

 

[andy33gmail]

Presumably without a train key as well as a tee key, no-one would be able to change the power/reverser/brake from a middle or rear cab … and even if they could, the driver would be able to hit the e-stop & remove the key? Causing a lot of disruption but leaving the miscreant very easy to locate & identify

 

[Haywain]

Don't drivers all have swipe cards to access their depot/mess room?

Not necessarily, no. There might be different methods of access for different mess rooms, depots, offices, signing on points etc. There are likely to be multiple different cards or tags required for access to places across a TOC.

 

[45Fox]

Presumably without a train key as well as a tee key, no-one would be able to change the power/reverser/brake from a middle or rear cab … and even if they could, the driver would be able to hit the e-stop & remove the key? Causing a lot of disruption but leaving the miscreant very easy to locate & identify

On the units I drive inserting a key into a desk and engaging the master switch (activating the driving desk) whilst another desk is in operation, ie the one I'm driving from, would trip the Train Control MCB and apply the brakes (amongst other things).

 

[Parallel]

I think a zero tolerance approach to passengers accessing non-public areas on the train with a few high publicity cases would probably work wonders. It wouldn’t stop everybody as you’ll always get a few who want to break the rules, but a clear view of consequences for doing so, should put a fair number off trying.

 

[renegademaster]

I don't know how true this of modern days but most military vehicles historically do not have keys. I know challengers don't. They depend on the base being secure and the public not knowing how to operate the machines.

 

[officewalla]

Good luck with getting BTP to respond to the types of things discussed here. They don't come out for disruptive passengers even with a 24 hour presence at a well known station in the south of England.

 

[bramling]

Good luck with getting BTP to respond to the types of things discussed here. They don't come out for disruptive passengers even with a 24 hour presence at a well known station in the south of England.

I know of a case where two girls broke into a cab (on LU so no key misuse involved) and assaulted two staff when challenged. The BTP response was essentially “right girls we are going to take you home, please don’t be naughty any more”.

 

[andy33gmail]

I think a zero tolerance approach to passengers accessing non-public areas on the train with a few high publicity cases would probably work wonders. It wouldn’t stop everybody as you’ll always get a few who want to break the rules, but a clear view of consequences for doing so, should put a fair number off trying.

Would the £1000 fine for trespassing - frequently advertised at platform ends etc - apply for someone entering a cab without authorisation?

You’d hope someone doing something that unexpected would see a few texts to the British Transport Plods, if not a 999 call - although I guess the danger is bystanders just assume they’re staff?

 

[Bogallan]

If they really wanted to see inside the cab then they should just have a friendly chat with the driver or guard. I've seen a guard invite a young child into the rear cab of a moving train once, which I imagine was quite an experience for them.

Yes indeed. I have invited a few young children who have shown interest over the years into the back cab. The memory will stay with them for a very long time I feel. It ceratinly did with me when I was invited into the Driving cab on the way to school. Infact, there were 3 of we schoolboys in the cab of the Class 502 EMU from Meols to Birkenhead Park - mind you it was 1974! Loved it.

 

[507 001]

I don’t see why anyone carrying a key around with them should be a problem. Using one is of course another matter.

Precisely. Which makes the suggestion of banning non employees from carrying them impractical at best.

Class 502 EMU from Meols to Birkenhead Park

503 surely

 

[Lewis10104]

Would the £1000 fine for trespassing - frequently advertised at platform ends etc - apply for someone entering a cab without authorisation?

You’d hope someone doing something that unexpected would see a few texts to the British Transport Plods, if not a 999 call - although I guess the danger is bystanders just assume they’re staff?

It is covered by the Railway Byelaws, yes.

10(2) - "No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person."

 

[ModernRailways]

Presumably without a train key as well as a tee key, no-one would be able to change the power/reverser/brake from a middle or rear cab … and even if they could, the driver would be able to hit the e-stop & remove the key? Causing a lot of disruption but leaving the miscreant very easy to locate & identify

If they had a key for the desk and did manage to ‘energise’ it then it wouldn’t give them control of the train, the brakes will come on and stop the train along with the buzzer going (unsure if this is on all stock at all TOCs) along with other things.

There are ways to access cabs without using a T-Key and considering how often these are used by crew, out of necessity, it is a surprise that these aren’t more commonly used by members of the public. Using these methods you potentially have access to cabs and an entire train without a single key needed, basically you could cause chaos without any kind of key even needed.

Tyne & Wear Metro largely uses Kaba keys now for trains/infrastructure - with different variants issued depending on what your role is.

They have used Kaba keys for a long while now and I am aware of former staff who still have multiples of these keys. They are harder to copy but it’s not impossible and the poor issuing control definitely wouldn’t surprise me if they’re are some in the hands of people who shouldn’t have them.

 

[andy33gmail]

There are ways to access cabs without using a T-Key and considering how often these are used by crew, out of necessity, it is a surprise that these aren’t more commonly used by members of the public. Using these methods you potentially have access to cabs and an entire train without a single key needed, basically you could cause chaos without any kind of key even needed.

Social norms, morality & the at least hypothetical existence of law & order is what makes this possible, surely?

Someone could do much more harm getting into a car (whether or not theirs) and damaging people/property than they could in a train. The glue holding it together is the fact most people don’t wish to be taken to court and given a 10 second prison sentence

 

[AlterEgo]

Cabs are secure if people don’t attempt to illegally enter it

So they're not secure then.

 

[thenorthern]

I've seen multiple videos on TikTok of people with authority on the railway talking about how some train enthusiasts are getting T-keys and other keys off of various sources and using them to commit illegal activities on the railway including breaking into cabs. This could possibly lead to Network Rail banning train enthusiasts from their properties. What could be done to stop this?

Another crazy TikTok trend by the sounds of it.

Really, the Online Safety Act should be stopping these kind of things but it's still in the early stages.

 

[andy33gmail]

Really, the Online Safety Act should be stopping these kind of things but it's still in the early stages.

Mayyyybe, but I think that kind of Chinese style control is unsustainable

Much better to find them, arrest them for trespass, then have the police gleefully comment on their video

 

[zzyy123]

It does seem odd that cab access relies on old-fashioned keys - I just Googled 'BR1' expecting to see something modern, and instead saw something that Sherlock Holmes would have recognised.

Cannot cabs use electronic 'key cards' to open the door? And if a physical override system - a traditional key - is needed in case of electronic failure, all manner of alarms should go off, CCTV recording commence etc.?

The rail industry is a fool onto themselves retaining old keys that have been in use since Victorian times. There is a multitude of keys that can are easily obtained on eBay not only for cabs and coaches but lineside gates, switch rooms and more.

 

[martin butler]

Clearly the important thing is to make those posting video of them doing an illegal activity by entering a non-public area of the train, not worth the hassle they get, it can start by using their own video as proof against them, by CCTV to back it up, the moment an unauthorized person or any person enters the cab, it should start the on board CCTV if its the driver, or someone who should be there, then the footage can just be ignored, but if its someone else, then the depot office who will be downloading it will have proof and a date stamp, this could then be passed on to BTP.

 

[M60lad]

If somebody had the appropriate key would it be frowned upon if they used it on warm/hot day like we've had recently to open the windows on a 158? Would the guard/conductor say anything or would they just get on with what they were supposed to be doing?

 

[GooseWaffe]

That still wouldn't really work as holding a PTS or any other ID other than a valid cab pass does not entitle them to enter a cab either. Only cab passes allow that.

Unless it’s a non active cab

 

[357]

Unless it’s a non active cab

A PTS card does not give you authority to enter a non active cab.

Many TOCs issue cab passes specifically for non active cabs. C2C used to issue purple cab passes to revenue staff so they could use rear or middle cabs as a place of safety, for example.

 

[Recessio]

If somebody had the appropriate key would it be frowned upon if they used it on warm/hot day like we've had recently to open the windows on a 158? Would the guard/conductor say anything or would they just get on with what they were supposed to be doing?

I've used my house keys (fits perfectly well in the square lock) to close the hopper windows on GWR 165/166s when the air conditioning is actually working (for once) but the windows have been left open anyway. I've also opened the windows once or twice when the AC has failed too.

I think there's a big difference between that and actually gaining opening service panels or entering cabs etc for which there is no doubt passengers should not be accessing those areas!

 

[8ace]

I got on a 158 at Westbury on Saturday (service commenced there), the door to the Secondman's seat was open and not a member of staff in sight.

 

[Snex]

It might be just be me, but I'd argue the doors aren't secure. It's the equivalent of leaving your door key under the mat and then going mental when someone enters your house, objectively even worse since you can get them anywhere.

 

[RiverDon]

It might be just be me, but I'd argue the doors aren't secure. It's the equivalent of leaving your door key under the mat and then going mental when someone enters your house, objectively even worse since you can get them anywhere.

I totally agree with this. The doors should be secure though!

 

[ModernRailways]

Social norms, morality & the at least hypothetical existence of law & order is what makes this possible, surely?

Someone could do much more harm getting into a car (whether or not theirs) and damaging people/property than they could in a train. The glue holding it together is the fact most people don’t wish to be taken to court and given a 10 second prison sentence

I fully agree, and think this is exactly why as things are it’s ‘fine’. You have very few instances of people gaining access to cabs, and generally this is happening on DOO trains, or trains in multiple with multiple cabs.

I believe in New York there was a group who managed to get into a train that was stabled in an express track and then managed to move it but that is such a rarity. Any keys where you have 1000s of people needing them is inherently going to be less secure, you can’t have 100% control. A key is a deterrent to those who will be law abiding and follow the rules, and it prevents opportunistic law breaking.

Those determined to do it, whether it be just for the fame of it on social media, or to actually cause damage/disruption will always find a way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

It might be just be me, but I'd argue the doors aren't secure. It's the equivalent of leaving your door key under the mat and then going mental when someone enters your house, objectively even worse since you can get them anywhere.

Someone could pick the lock to your house within seconds if they wanted too. A key and locked door just stops the opportunistic thefts/break ins.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2026 ==

I got on a 158 at Westbury on Saturday (service commenced there), the door to the Secondman's seat was open and not a member of staff in sight.

Some of our units when in multiple have a metal bar at waist height that goes across the secondmans side. The drivers side has the cab door and is closed/locked but the secondmans side is accessible, with a few different pieces of equipment also accessible and one breaker.

 

[Snex]

Someone could pick the lock to your house within seconds if they wanted too. A key and locked door just stops the opportunistic thefts/break ins.

Even known I get your point and don't disagree, surely when the keys are easily available on the internet it's now an issue.

Hypothetically if they managed to do something which caused injury then I'm not sure it'll look particularly good in court if you knew people had keys to access a secure area and you didn't bother to do anything about it.

It's not like it's not been going on for awhile, as if I'm right, it'll be the same people who have been surfing lifts for years now.

 

[Krokodil]

I got on a 158 at Westbury on Saturday (service commenced there), the door to the Secondman's seat was open and not a member of staff in sight.

Could you have done anything except turn the windscreen wiper on?