People obtaining railway keys and breaking into cabs

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Don't drivers all have swipe cards to access their depot/mess room? What changes the risk for them using their lanyard to enter the cab rather than a key? If it's an issue of heights (ballast vs platform access), 2 readers could be provided.

Depots or messrooms tend to be accessed by number pad (or a BR1 key in some cases) rather than by swipe card, at least at my TOC.

 

[Krokodil]

Depots or messrooms tend to be accessed by number pad (or a BR1 key in some cases) rather than by swipe card, at least at my TOC.

Just a carriage key inserted where the door handle would normally be at one I know of. BR1 dead lock whenever the station is left unstaffed.

 

[RiverDon]

Don't drivers all have swipe cards to access their depot/mess room?

Not all. Every depot or bothy I access uses simple number code locks. Some are even just three digits. My ID card isn't a smart card.

I totally agree that cab security needs a massive improvement/overhaul.

 

[adc82140]

It really is unbelievable that all recent rolling stock doesn't have a proximity card access system. We have them at work (NHS) for multiple doors. As well as restricting access, the system records whose card has been used and when, and if a card is lost or when a staff member leaves, it can be deactivated. This is standard across many industries, I'm not sure why the railway lags behind in this respect.

As regards banning T Keys from the railway: not possible. I carry one for work (they unlock clinical waste skips), and I sometimes commute by train. How would that work?

 

[zwk500]

Depots or messrooms tend to be accessed by number pad (or a BR1 key in some cases) rather than by swipe card, at least at my TOC.

Interesting

 

[ATS3]

What could be done to stop this?

The Gov cracking down on the social media algorithm which effectively rewards this behavior

 

[mmh]

It really is unbelievable that all recent rolling stock doesn't have a proximity card access system. We have them at work (NHS) for multiple doors. As well as restricting access, the system records whose card has been used and when, and if a card is lost or when a staff member leaves, it can be deactivated. This is standard across many industries, I'm not sure why the railway lags behind in this respect.

Such systems aren't a panacea. They have their own issues, including their own security and safety risks.

The railway isn't the only workplace that has largely not taken up card operated locks.

 

[martin butler]

Even if Crew doors were changed to card locks, there would need to be a way to open, or gain access in emergency like say if the driver became unwell. and needed medical help.

 

[High Dyke]

But they would though have ID, I'm very surprised though that train staff, at your TOC, don't have PTS, what happens if you have to evacuate a train, and have to escort passengers to a place of safety?

Not all frontline Network Rail staff are issued with an ID badge/card. PTS for many signallers was stopped years ago as management wouldn't pay for keeping the competency.

 

[TheHovisKid]

Was just typing this out as you posted it! I think kaba keys are the way forward as they are a LOT more secure than a standard square key

Didn't Northern remove those and replace them with a T-Key...

 

[cool110]

ISTR LU’s plan was to have a system where you press a button and the driver has a time period to accept or decline access.

So the same system that airline cockpits use.

 

[WillPlym]

I couldn't believe it when I joined the railway last year and found out that trains mostly just use square keys for cab and staff only doors. Coming from the police I found it incredible that somewhere that should be very secure just has a thin plywood door with a lock that can be opened with anything flat. The first thing they got us to do on our induction day was the anti-terrorism training which totally ignored this situation!

I have a start date in July and am joining from the police. This has also blown my mind. I have just googled about T keys and found a free program online which allows you to 3D print one at home!

 

[Krokodil]

I have a start date in July and am joining from the police. This has also blown my mind. I have just googled about T keys and found a free program online which allows you to 3D print one at home!

A 3D printed one will wear out in five minutes

 

[WillPlym]

A 3D printed one will wear out in five minutes

Appreciate that but the people being discussed in this post only need it to work once and then print another if they need.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A 3D printed one will wear out in five minutes

Really depends on the printing method and quality, some 3d printing tech is getting really good now (but expensive), and it's not like it'd be seeing extreme use in this theoretical scenario.

 

[milooo]

These people breaking into the cabs are also blowing the horn.. Surely that can cause quite a serious safety issue?

 

[bramling]

It really is unbelievable that all recent rolling stock doesn't have a proximity card access system. We have them at work (NHS) for multiple doors. As well as restricting access, the system records whose card has been used and when, and if a card is lost or when a staff member leaves, it can be deactivated. This is standard across many industries, I'm not sure why the railway lags behind in this respect.

Where I am some places have swipe cards. What has happened in practice is I’ve ended up with 4 different cards and 2 key fobs, which introduces its own logistical issues. For one of those the door entry systems are years old and supported by a windows 3.1 pc that is somehow kept working and religiously recovering cards as people leave so they can be re-issued, luckily the building now houses about 50 staff less than it once did so that gave a stash of spare cards. It’s a not dissimilar story for all the others, standalone systems all dating from different times.

For this to work it would essentially require a nationwide system, every member of staff, and more to the point every door. The cost would be absolutely enormous compared to status quo.

I see no reason with introducing a more secure cab access key that is a bit more strictly controlled though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

So the same system that airline cockpits use.

Yes I believe so. I think there was a plan to trial it, but I don’t think this ever happened.

 

[QueensCurve]

Only in a very, very small area and under very specific circumstances.

Obviously Metrolink is a railway but I believe it only overlaps with the 'national railway' on the stretch between Altrincham and Navigation Road.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2026 ==

So the same system that airline cockpits use.

The system that resulted in the Germanwings crash with considerable loss of life.

 

[blue87]

Shocking that secure areas of trains still use T-keys to access them or even an improvised tool such as a teaspoon handle can open some. The operator I work for has a more secure dimple lock type key which issuing is better controlled even getting one copied in a shop is difficult as getting the blanks and equipment to cut one is harder. Maybe a card system would be better as any lost / stolen cards can be instantly blocked.

 

[Segedunum]

Tyne & Wear Metro largely uses Kaba keys now for trains/infrastructure - with different variants issued depending on what your role is.

 

[Efini92]

Shocking that secure areas of trains still use T-keys to access them or even an improvised tool such as a teaspoon handle can open some. The operator I work for has a more secure dimple lock type key which issuing is better controlled even getting one copied in a shop is difficult as getting the blanks and equipment to cut one is harder. Maybe a card system would be better as any lost / stolen cards can be instantly blocked.

It’s not really though is it, it costs money to change them. When was the last time you saw a cab get a refurbishment?
What’s more shocking is where the brake isolating cocks on a 319 are, and that only required a carriage key to open them.

 

[blue87]

Tyne & Wear Metro largely uses Kaba keys now for trains/infrastructure - with different variants issued depending on what your role is.

Many operators now use KABA or equivalent dimple lock systems, issue of them keys are much more tightly controlled,

Tyne & Wear Metro largely uses Kaba keys now for trains/infrastructure - with different variants issued depending on what your role is.

Pretty sure them dimple lock type of keys are tightly controlled, you can't simply go to Timpsons and get a spare cut as only authorised place have the blanks and even then only certain people can obtain one after checks

 

[Recessio]

It is ridiculous how easy it is to get hold of railway keys. In a previous flat, the gas and electricity meters were behind a cupboard in the hall with a square lock, and I was given what appears to be a genuine carriage bell and heater key to open it, apparently that's what the building management gave you if you lost and needed a replacement!

 

[Sakuradori]

Thankfully my TOC uses specific train and KABA keys for the trains- my BR1 key spent a while stuck in the lock of a phone box the very first time I tried to use it, and it turned out to be no great loss.

 

[Trackman]

These people breaking into the cabs are also blowing the horn.. Surely that can cause quite a serious safety issue?

Reminds me of this, resulting in time behind bars.
Funny how they call him a 'train basher' and go into details.

Train enthusiast is jailed after locking himself in driver’s cab to bl

AN EXTREME trainspotter has been locked away for New Year after giving himself a festive treat – by sneaking into a driver’s cab to sound a highspeed locomotive’s horn.

www.express.co.uk

George Foley, 20, climbed into the empty rear driver’s cab of an Edinburgh to Crewe Virgin train on Sunday evening, then locked the door and refused to come out.
He sounded the horn several times as the train approached Carlisle station before giving himself up to British Transport Police. Arresting him held up the train for a short time.

But he caused delays of more than an hour to all other southbound West Coast mainline services.
Thousands of passengers were affected as they travelled from Scotland to Cheshire.
At Carlisle magistrates court on Tuesday, Foley, of no fixed abode, admitted five charges including obstructing an engine or carriage, theft of drinks and confectionery from a train fridge and travelling with no ticket.


After locking himself in the driver's cabim Foley gave himself up to British Transport Police
He was sent to a young offenders’ institution for 125 days. He apologised for his actions.
But magistrate Peter Pickthall said the offences were so serious, “only a custodial sentence can be imposed”.
Foley is thought to be a “train basher”, an obsessed rail enthusiast who ignores safety rules to hide inside driver’s cabs on trains.



Foley is a 'train basher' a more extreme form of train spotting
They mark them off in a book in the way regular trainspotters tick off the numbers of locomotives they have seen while standing on platforms.
Even the shortest journey will count, such as being hauled for a few hundred yards by a shunting loco when one portion of a train is being hooked up to another at a junction.
Some British train bashers travel abroad to hide in the cabs of locomotives built in the UK.
In the Virgin driver’s cab, Foley had access to soft and loud horns.
Loud horns warn motorists near level crossings.
The softer horns are sounded near platforms.

 

[dgl]

At work I have access to master keys and it's actually quite trivial to get copies made, I know because I've copied a few myself, and my current set of master keys is such a set (standard keys are really easy to cut from the original key). You can also get them online but the suppliers I've seen need proof that you are allowed to buy them/have a legitimate use for them.

As for dimple/special keys they are more difficult to copy but the kit is not exactly controlled here in the UK, though it's not cheap. JMA will also now sell you a machine that can recreate most blanks ready for cutting on a suitable machine, so even difficult to acquire blanks can be recreated.

 

[Dstock7080]

ISTR LU’s plan was to have a system where you press a button and the driver has a time period to accept or decline access. I assume this wouldn’t apply to empty cabs.

Front and rear cabs would have an active device, middle cabs would be disabled.

 

[Nym]

Worse on LU, as the J door locks used are easy to open, not that this is even an issue as there is a break glass panel anyway.

A few years ago this was quite an issue after some high-profile incidents where active cabs were broken into, however since Covid this seems to have slipped down the to-do pile.

It has of course slid into the pile of, "Well, we've let a contract for it, and now the contractor is being slow." The initial requirements included some very unrealistic requirements. And of course, any form of Card Access system will usually bring more problems than in solves.

Front and rear cabs would have an active device, middle cabs would be disabled.

So it would do nothing to change the risk of interference with the train, access to the middle cab on units which have them on LUL can cause some serious issues if you know where the applicable controls are. Nor would it do anything to address the other issues if one had a "J" door key to access other non-passenger areas on other fleets.

Yes, I'm being cryptic, and yes it's for a reason.

It’s not really though is it, it costs money to change them. When was the last time you saw a cab get a refurbishment?
What’s more shocking is where the brake isolating cocks on a 319 are, and that only required a carriage key to open them.3

But of course the BRIC (Brake Reservoir Isolation Cock), and BRV (Brake Release Valve) that I suspect you're referring to (Not the Brake Isolation Cock that is in a different location and has no key to access) are in that position for a good reason. But now that Moorgate Tunnels are not open to passenger trains on Network Rail, that reason no longer exists.

 

[507 001]

Obviously Metrolink is a railway but I believe it only overlaps with the 'national railway' on the stretch between Altrincham and Navigation Road.

Precisely. So when I’m travelling to and from work with a BR1 key around my neck, is that justified or not?

 

[AverageJoe]

Cabs are secure if people don’t attempt to illegally enter it with keys they shouldn’t have or shouldn’t have made.

It’s on them and they are in the wrong and I hope any found doing it or even attempting to get dealt with severely.

And it could spoil it for enthusiasts because many of the enthusiasts I see will spend the day in one location set up with cameras. So although you can’t tell who is an enthusiast if they are just travelling staff could easily ask those set up with cameras to leave. Which would be a shame for them.