People obtaining railway keys and breaking into cabs

[WestAnglian]

It's certainly not practical, how do you define what a train enthusiast is? What if they're a paying passenger who happens to be a (sane) enthusiast? I know a lot of staff are railway enthusiasts, you should see how many of them get their cameras out when a charter comes through... I've even seen managers do it.

If you ban train enthusiasts you'd be banning the Railways Minister!

 

[weastebusdepot]

But they would though have ID, I'm very surprised though that train staff, at your TOC, don't have PTS, what happens if you have to evacuate a train, and have to escort passengers to a place of safety?

Having PTS and carrying a PTS card are two different things, with many TOCs phasing out physical cards although PTS competency is recorded on the employment records and can be verified by anyone who needs to.

In the bus industry, it has now become a thing for people to wear home made/collected uniform and go around pretending to be bus inspectors or managers. I've recently come across two different people claiming to be Bee Network managers and trying to get bus drivers to follow their instructions. They appear convincing until checked closely.

 

[FinsburyPark]

There are a sub set of Rail Enthusiasts who do things that are either unsafe or illegal.

I know some go over the yellow line to film a steam movement, for example.

Most of us are decent people but there are a select few who openly do things that are unsafe or even illegal.

Luckily most station platforms are laced with CCTV. Get the BTP to find them on camera and make a "suprise" visit to thier house, un-announced of course.

 

[Dougal2345]

It does seem odd that cab access relies on old-fashioned keys - I just Googled 'BR1' expecting to see something modern, and instead saw something that Sherlock Holmes would have recognised.

Cannot cabs use electronic 'key cards' to open the door? And if a physical override system - a traditional key - is needed in case of electronic failure, all manner of alarms should go off, CCTV recording commence etc.?

 

[saismee]

It does seem odd that cab access relies on old-fashioned keys - I just Googled 'BR1' expecting to see something modern, and instead saw something that Sherlock Holmes would have recognised.

Cannot cabs use electronic 'key cards' to open the door? And if a physical override system - a traditional key - is needed in case of electronic failure, all manner of alarms should go off, CCTV recording commence etc.?

Honestly, this sounds reasonable to me. Have access restricted to the (already existing) TOC staff passes, with a more secure master key which is held in a more secure area of the depot or station in case of a fault. The TOC staff passes are already used to access certain locked rooms such as for ticket printers AIUI.

 

[Corn]

Quite simply cabs should not be able to be accessed by T keys. If the TOCs are actually serious about the risk of unauthorised people gaining access to cabs, they would be swapping locks over to something else. Even a BR1 would be better as at least you can't just jam something vaguely the right size into it to open the lock like you can with a T key.

 

[Krystal]

In the cases where cabs are broken into, BTP will almost always be aware about such incidents (after all, it's a grand safety risk), and come arrest them.
For example, there was an incident in 2023 regarding people getting access into a cab at Stratford. They posted it on TikTok and everything, and unsurprisingly TfL got ahold of it, and it was this video they used for prosecution. I'm not sure what happened after that but action is indeed being taken for these events.
I'm pretty sure this counts as trespass anyways, so the penalty will be very hefty.

Attached image is a still from the TikTok in 2023 where a group of young boys broke into the cab of a 378 and posted it on TikTok. This video was used as proof by TfL to pursue legal action.

 

[Deepgreen]

Technically, of course, if a key is used, it's not "breaking" into cabs. I suspect the idiot minority will always find ways to disrupt (reflecting society in general!). I do find, though, that the railway enthusiast sector does seem to include a greater-than-average proportion of people with various mental health issues (I'm not being judgemental here, just factual, based on my experience). Most of the people affected are harmless, but some have extreme/obsessive behaviours which might lead to problems for the railway. Of course, it is widely accepted that the presence of rail enthusiasts in general has far more benefits than disbenefits - e.g. being extra eyes and ears to detect problems, etc. It would be interesting to know what proportion of people committing these acts are true railway enthusiasts - i.e. otherwise interested in (and supporters/defenders of) the railway - as opposed to more general trouble-makers.

 

[jh64]

In the cases where cabs are broken into, BTP will almost always be aware about such incidents (after all, it's a grand safety risk), and come arrest them.
For example, there was an incident in 2023 regarding people getting access into a cab at Stratford. They posted it on TikTok and everything, and unsurprisingly TfL got ahold of it, and it was this video they used for prosecution. I'm not sure what happened after that but action is indeed being taken for these events.
I'm pretty sure this counts as trespass anyways, so the penalty will be very hefty.

Attached image is a still from the TikTok in 2023 where a group of young boys broke into the cab of a 378 and posted it on TikTok. This video was used as proof by TfL to pursue legal action.

Brings to mind Jimbo the bully from The Simpsons: 'Videotaping this crime spree is the best idea we ever had!'

 

[Krokodil]

There has been a mysterious key in my gateline's station control unit (SCU) for months now and I've always wondered what it is. Apparently it's a BR1 key! I still have no idea what it's for, but now I know what it is.

Gangway door and cab door locks on anything from Mk1s to 150s (though some 150 fleets use carriage keys instead). Some phone boxes use them, and some buildings.

 

[dmncf]

In Poland I saw a newish PKP EU160 loco and its doors were secured by a card reader with PIN buttons - see the bottom part of the door in this image. That brings cab security up to the standard you'd expect in other contexts, e.g. you wouldn't expect to get into TfL's head office without an ID card.

https://s5.tvp.pl/images2/e/c/b/uid_ecb09c10e16e49f19580f95338a05ccd_width_900_play_0_pos_0_gs_0_height_506.jpg

 

[Rail Quest]

I've seen multiple videos on TikTok of people with authority on the railway talking about how some train enthusiasts are getting T-keys and other keys off of various sources and using them to commit illegal activities on the railway including breaking into cabs.

Does anyone (or do any even exist) have any statistics on how widespread this problem is? I think I've only ever come across two or three videos online of people illegally breaking into cabs in my ten years in the hobby.

This could possibly lead to Network Rail banning train enthusiasts from their properties.

This is highly alarming to me and would be completely pointless. Not only should the actions of the many not be dictated by the stupidity of the few, but if people want to get access to cabs, they'll trespass wherever to get that access because, you know, they're already trespassing doing this in the first place. If this is actually something which is under consideration by NR (which I highly doubt in the first place), then I don't think this idea has been thought through at all.

 

[Dave W]

Having PTS and carrying a PTS card are two different things, with many TOCs phasing out physical cards although PTS competency is recorded on the employment records and can be verified by anyone who needs to.

In the bus industry, it has now become a thing for people to wear home made/collected uniform and go around pretending to be bus inspectors or managers. I've recently come across two different people claiming to be Bee Network managers and trying to get bus drivers to follow their instructions. They appear convincing until checked closely.

I've seen this in other industries (an early example for me was when working part time at university, a bottom rung operative came into my (nameless!) fast food joint claiming to be a manager from another store to look big to his mates. We belled the other store who told us he was absolutely not a manager - and then the fun commenced as we played along with it...!)

Would a ploy like this really work on the railway though? Considering the safety critical nature of it all, are staff not naturally wary of someone claiming to be in a senior position that they don't recognise? I guess there's always a weakness in the system, but I'd say it'd be harder than most.

ANY incident where passengers' safety is in question is bad, but has there been any data collected by the industry in terms of numbers of incidents of cab break-ins and other breaches of security? It seems the general consensus is it's a growing problem, but is that bearing out?

 

[styles]

It does seem odd that cab access relies on old-fashioned keys - I just Googled 'BR1' expecting to see something modern, and instead saw something that Sherlock Holmes would have recognised.

Cannot cabs use electronic 'key cards' to open the door? And if a physical override system - a traditional key - is needed in case of electronic failure, all manner of alarms should go off, CCTV recording commence etc.?

The best thing is that you can get keys cut from photos now. So you don't even need a legit supplier for a BR1 key - you just need a photo of one and a naive only key cutter.

 

[RiverDon]

I couldn't believe it when I joined the railway last year and found out that trains mostly just use square keys for cab and staff only doors. Coming from the police I found it incredible that somewhere that should be very secure just has a thin plywood door with a lock that can be opened with anything flat. The first thing they got us to do on our induction day was the anti-terrorism training which totally ignored this situation!

 

[6Gman]

I've seen multiple videos on TikTok of people with authority on the railway talking about how some train enthusiasts are getting T-keys and other keys off of various sources and using them to commit illegal activities on the railway including breaking into cabs. This could possibly lead to Network Rail banning train enthusiasts from their properties. What could be done to stop this?

"could" and "possibly" doing some heavy lifting there!

Do you have any source for this or is it just something you've thought yourself - after all I "could" "possibly" be asked to head Great British Railways ...

And who - precisely - are these "people with authority on the railway" to whom you refer?

 

[fgwrich]

Let’d say, for example, that I am a contract fitter, contract engineer, whatever. I’m travelling via train from my home location to a vehicle depot. I could be working on passenger units, be locomotives or something different altogether.

I know that I will need a T key and a BR1 key whenever I am working on ex British Rail vehicles. Perhaps even some additional keys for guard panels and the like. So I bring these with me in my depot toolbag.

Are you telling me that I should need to seek specific authorisation from my point of contact every time that I set foot on the operational railway with my set of keys?


Quite right. Note however my point above. A fitter or engineer would not necessarily have a cab pass either but would have legitimate grounds for carrying their keys.

I’m glad you mention this, I do not work on the railway now but I do restore ex BR vehicles in my spare time. I do also restore several vintage buses (which guess what, require a T-Key for access to certain panels), although I don’t carry the T-Key with me all the time where would I stand with this too?

I used the T-Key when I worked in my old force and it was actually useful for some incidents on the Railway. Heck, I’ve even had it in the past where I’ve been able to help the guard rectify a fault which otherwise would have rendered the unit out of service. So we’re not all up to no good for those that do have possession of said items!

 

[matchmaker]

I have a BR T key and a BR1 key from my days as a volunteer on the SVR. They now live somewhere at the bottom of one of the drawers in my bedroom.

I made my first T key when I was a volunteer with the SRPS in their Springfield Yard days. It took all of 5 minutes...

 

[WAB]

This could possibly lead to Network Rail banning train enthusiasts from their properties. What could be done to stop this?

That'd deplete the ranks of staff somewhat...

 

[dodecahedron67]

Worth mentioning that a lot, but not all, of more modern (2010s onwards) units use security keys like kaba keys for access to cabs and to make certain panels ‘live’

 

[liamf656]

Worth mentioning that a lot, but not all, of more modern (2010s onwards) units use security keys like kaba keys for access to cabs and to make certain panels ‘live’

Was just typing this out as you posted it! I think kaba keys are the way forward as they are a LOT more secure than a standard square key

 

[bramling]

Worse on LU, as the J door locks used are easy to open, not that this is even an issue as there is a break glass panel anyway.

A few years ago this was quite an issue after some high-profile incidents where active cabs were broken into, however since Covid this seems to have slipped down the to-do pile.

Unfortunately LU is not an easy one to deal with, as the cabs are the only emergency escape route. ISTR LU’s plan was to have a system where you press a button and the driver has a time period to accept or decline access. I assume this wouldn’t apply to empty cabs.

As a depressing footnote, not so many generations ago cabs on LU didn’t require any security at all, just a normal handle that anyone could open. Everyone loves to love DLR’s way of working, however their on-train staff have no place of safety, I don’t think I’d be too happy working in that situation nowadays.

 

[150219]

ANY incident where passengers' safety is in question is bad, but has there been any data collected by the industry in terms of numbers of incidents of cab break-ins and other breaches of security? It seems the general consensus is it's a growing problem, but is that bearing out?

It's difficult to get quantifiable data. How many instances of this go unreported and how many get posted online and not form part of the statistics? It probably happens more frequently than figures can count on. If I recall correctly, this topic has featured on the forum before. At a preserved railway gala recently, I observed a number of children using keys to lock the carriage doors to stop their friends from getting on. Yes, a great laugh I'm sure - but perhaps this should be treated the same way as that which is posted on socials. In the course of my job, I have encountered persons without authority to be present in driving cabs and I have prevented access to the same too. Some have involved the BTP, some haven't. With the increase in posting activity on socials, I see this trend may continue but it also happens in waves. People lose interest once it becomes something that's popularly posted online or there are consequences to those who have been prosecuted/fined.

 

[iamraymond]

It does seem odd that cab access relies on old-fashioned keys - I just Googled 'BR1' expecting to see something modern, and instead saw something that Sherlock Holmes would have recognised.

Cannot cabs use electronic 'key cards' to open the door? And if a physical override system - a traditional key - is needed in case of electronic failure, all manner of alarms should go off, CCTV recording commence etc.?

Of course they can, but any changes usually cause a strike

 

[class 9]

Of course they can, but any changes usually cause a strike

Improving cab security causing a strike? What a complete load of nonsense.

 

[KNN]

I could be wrong but I suspect a lot of the people doing it aren't really rail enthusiasts.

If there was a hypothetical Association of Railway Enthusiasts with a charter for good and bad behaviour on the network very few would disagree that going into a cab without permission is unacceptable.

 

[pr1]

Such activity has always occurred. I have known "bashers" enter loco cabs and smash instruments so a preferred loco was the only one available for a particular service.

I actually gasped at this! Fantasy football players wouldn't attempt to nobble an opposition player, I'm certain, but enthusiasts would prang a cab! Blimey.

 

[mmh]

Improving cab security causing a strike? What a complete load of nonsense.

You can't just change things that have been done a particular way forever on a whim.

Electronic card operated doors? At first thought concerns might include:

Surveillance on staff; having a log of when staff open doors
Safety of cards vs. existing keys; will they and the method of using them increase risks for staff
Procedures when cards are lost, or don't work etc.

 

[zwk500]

You can't just change things that have been done a particular way forever on a whim.

It's not on a whim though, it would be in response to a clear problem. And it's a proposal that will increase the personal safety of drivers. In at least one incident of a passenger gaining access to the cab, the driver is quoted as having been frightened for their life.

Electronic card operated doors? At first thought concerns might include:

Surveillance on staff; having a log of when staff open doors
Safety of cards vs. existing keys; will they and the method of using them increase risks for staff
Procedures when cards are lost, or don't work etc.

Don't drivers all have swipe cards to access their depot/mess room? What changes the risk for them using their lanyard to enter the cab rather than a key? If it's an issue of heights (ballast vs platform access), 2 readers could be provided.

Regarding the log on opening doors - won't units log when the cabs are started up (or at least things like GSM-R connection established), which presumably is something that happens quite soon after the driver enters the cab?

 

[Tetragon213]

I actually gasped at this! Fantasy football players wouldn't attempt to nobble an opposition player, I'm certain, but enthusiasts would prang a cab! Blimey.

In the days gone by, the so-called "Peak Army" (a group of bashers following the 44-46 locos) were rather notorious for their hijinks and other misdemeanours. Irritatingly, the spirit of the Peak Army has apparently been reborn among certain members of the Class 37 following. Also, during the HST farewell, I bore witness to some rather poor behaviour by other fans.

I have no doubt that a motivated "fan" would relish at the chance to do something funny if given a carriage key. There's a reason the website from which I bought my Carriage and BR1 keys from checked I was from the heritage line I said I was before shipping it to me.