Liverpool to Llandudno TfW 2 car trains on bank holiday

[Snow1964]

Isn't a fairly big part of the issue the unreliability of the 197s, with nowhere near as many in service each day as was planned? After all they're actually up on stock from the long term plan given that the Cambrian is still 158s.

Wales ordered its trains August 2018, which probably means it considered the fleet size back in 2016 or 2017 based on then passenger numbers.

If I remember correctly this was when there were still plans for a M4 relief road around Newport, before pay as you go. Before anyone understood working from home and the exodus of business from London to regional cities. Clearly lot has happened in 10 years and some of the passenger number forecasts have proved to be wildly low, so the new fleet can't cope on some lines.

They have extended the maintenance contracts for 158s (from memory up to 3 years), so clearly giving themselves breathing space to order some extra intermediate vehicles or whole sets

 

[Oxfordblues]

50 years ago I caught the weekly Saturdays-only Lime Street-Llandudno from Ditton Junction, hauled by a Speke Junction Standard-5 (73xxx). It wasn't much quicker than the steamer from Pier Head, by then operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Co. Other than Saturdays there was only the route Birkenhead Woodside-Chester General and change there for Llandudno. So today's service is a huge improvement on the "glorious years"!

 

[alistairlees]

50 years ago I caught the weekly Saturdays-only Lime Street-Llandudno from Ditton Junction, hauled by a Speke Junction Standard-5 (73xxx). It wasn't much quicker than the steamer from Pier Head, by then operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Co. Other than Saturdays there was only the route Birkenhead Woodside-Chester General and change there for Llandudno. So today's service is a huge improvement on the "glorious years"!

I thought steam ended before 1976?

 

[Oxfordblues]

Yes, sorry. It was 1966, 60 years ago. An age-related error on my part!

 

[alistairlees]

Yes, sorry. It was 1966, 60 years ago. An age-related error on my part!

I was only teasing of course ...

 

[Bevan Price]

Though probably higher standee capacity.

Most people do not want to stand, especially for long journeys.
And one problem with the 197s is the space "wasted" by the "food cabinets" - probably at least 8 -10 more seats could be fitted in that space.
The other problem is that the 2 coach train should be regarded as obsolete for most of our railways - they are almost always going to be too small for the lines on which they are used.

 

[Sheridan]

Most people do not want to stand, especially for long journeys.
And one problem with the 197s is the space "wasted" by the "food cabinets" - probably at least 8 -10 more seats could be fitted in that space.
The other problem is that the 2 coach train should be regarded as obsolete for most of our railways - they are almost always going to be too small for the lines on which they are used.

For most of the year, on weekdays, 2-cars are fine for most of the day in north Wales. They’re absolutely not fine for bank holidays, race days, match days, school holidays, warm weather weekends etc. But the modern railway is very bad at ad-hoc strengthening and so I agree with you and other posters that 3-cars should be the minimum, or even fixed 4-car formations like the 196s, with a few 2-cars for the Blaenau branch and maybe Crewe-Wrexham.

 

[Harpo]

Though probably higher standee capacity.

Another downside of a 2 car suburban/local regional design unit being used for multi-hour long distance work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another downside of a 2 car suburban/local regional design unit being used for multi-hour long distance work.

It's mixed regional and regional
express work, not true intercity. Apart from the catering cupboard they're bang on.

 

[DS25]

It's mixed regional and regional
express work, not true intercity. Apart from the catering cupboard they're bang on.

But I doubt passengers would want to stand on Cambrian (already happens, and lower seating capacity wont help that) or Marches services

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I doubt passengers would want to stand on Cambrian (already happens, and lower seating capacity wont help that) or Marches services

The Cambrian is absolutely somewhere you want large standee capacity for the very large number of people doing short journeys in the high summer. The North Wales Coast similarly.

 

[DS25]

The Cambrian is absolutely somewhere you want large standee capacity for the very large number of people doing short journeys in the high summer. The North Wales Coast similarly.

Although most passengers on those lines are families travelling who preferably would like a seat on the train instead of having to stand, even if they were travelling between seaside towns along the line.

It probably wouldve been better if TfW ordered some ETCS 3 car units for use in the Summer and run 2+3 or 3+3 trains, and redeploy them to the Marches or somewhere else during the Winter

 

[frodshamfella]

2 car working today on Liverpool - Llandudno . Completely inadequate. Standing as I tried to board at Frodsham going to Chester.

 

[Sheridan]

On the section between Chester and Junction, the train towards Llandudno runs 8 minutes behind the xx26 to Junction or Holyhead so that does take some of the pressure off it. Heading back the other way, in the hours Avanti run it’s only 6 minutes behind that, which will also pick up lots of passengers, but when there’s no Avanti it’s about twenty minutes behind the previous TfW service so there will be a lot more passenger numbers at each stop.

Having inadequate 2-cars on services towards Chester on a race day seems to keep happening - presumably it’s all they can manage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It probably wouldve been better if TfW ordered some ETCS 3 car units for use in the Summer and run 2+3 or 3+3 trains, and redeploy them to the Marches or somewhere else during the Winter

There's a plan to run 4 car on the coast (6 from Brum, 2 to Aber), though enough 197s being in service to do that seems like a distant dream.

 

[frodshamfella]

Just got on the 10.56 Frodsham to Liverpool ( from Llandudno), and we have 3 cars. Trains still full up and people standing, but better that 2 cars. Looks like this will be a very popular service. Passenger next to me travelling Bangor - Liverpool.

 

[gazthomas]

I'm on the 11.34 from Ludo to Liverpool today, a 2 car 197 full and standing at Prestatyn and already 8 minutes down as people try and squeeze in

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm on the 11.34 from Ludo to Liverpool today, a 2 car 197 full and standing at Prestatyn and already 8 minutes down as people try and squeeze in

They need to address this, its clearly a service that's going to have a strong demand.

 

[Phillipimo]

They need to address this, its clearly a service that's going to have a strong demand.

As with all discussion about class 197 formations, surely it must be caveated that until the class 398 tram-trains in Cardiff are in operation, there are 197s being used on services they are not intended for in the long term. The situation in North Wales can't really be judged until the rolling stock cascade is complete. Of course this doesn't help overcrowding anytime soon.

 

[gazthomas]

As with all discussion about class 197 formations, surely it must be caveated that until the class 398 tram-trains in Cardiff are in operation, there are 197s being used on services they are not intended for in the long term. The situation in North Wales can't really be judged until the rolling stock cascade is complete. Of course this doesn't help overcrowding anytime soon.

They also need to resolve the many unavailable 197s, plenty parked up in Chester

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

They also need to resolve the many unavailable 197s, plenty parked up in Chester

When I got to Chester the train got even busier due to issues on Merseyrail

 

[Jez]

As with all discussion about class 197 formations, surely it must be caveated that until the class 398 tram-trains in Cardiff are in operation, there are 197s being used on services they are not intended for in the long term. The situation in North Wales can't really be judged until the rolling stock cascade is complete. Of course this doesn't help overcrowding anytime soon.

The Cambrian 197s are on paper covering for the routes where the 197s will not be on long term (Maesteg etc) plus there are still a few 150 and 153 diagrams that will eventually go back to being 197s. So once the 158s and 150s (and the 153s that are not staying long term) go that is when there could be more issues with not enough 197s unless of course they have plans we dont yet know about for more rolling stock!

 

[Krokodil]

On the section between Chester and Junction, the train towards Llandudno runs 8 minutes behind the xx26 to Junction or Holyhead so that does take some of the pressure off it. Heading back the other way, in the hours Avanti run it’s only 6 minutes behind that, which will also pick up lots of passengers, but when there’s no Avanti it’s about twenty minutes behind the previous TfW service so there will be a lot more passenger numbers at each stop.

I was in Llandudno Junction today (sampling the hospitality of the Laundry Taproom) and the next stop on the pub crawl was in Llandudno. When will the next train be? Google Maps said 50 minutes time! That can't be right, surely the service has gone to half-hourly from the timetable change. So I looked it up on RTT and found that while there were indeed two trains per hour, they run a mere 10 minutes apart and having just missed one there was 50 minutes to wait for the next. Needless to say, we took the bus. The new timetable is as bad for local trips as the old one was.

Quite apart from the continued poor ferry connections at Holyhead (arrive in Holyhead from Dublin at 20:00 on a weekday and by the time that foot passengers have been able to disembark you'll have 8 hours to kill before the first train the next morning), the combining of Wrexham and Crewe shuttles might be handy for through passengers but is utterly useless for anyone wanting to access Wrexham from Manchester trains.

This much-vaunted timetable recast seems like a massive missed opportunity.

 

[Sheridan]

I was in Llandudno Junction today (sampling the hospitality of the Laundry Taproom) and the next stop on the pub crawl was in Llandudno. When will the next train be? Google Maps said 50 minutes time! That can't be right, surely the service has gone to half-hourly from the timetable change. So I looked it up on RTT and found that while there were indeed two trains per hour, they run a mere 10 minutes apart and having just missed one there was 50 minutes to wait for the next. Needless to say, we took the bus. The new timetable is as bad for local trips as the old one was.

Quite apart from the continued poor ferry connections at Holyhead (arrive in Holyhead from Dublin at 20:00 on a weekday and by the time that foot passengers have been able to disembark you'll have 8 hours to kill before the first train the next morning), the combining of Wrexham and Crewe shuttles might be handy for through passengers but is utterly useless for anyone wanting to access Wrexham from Manchester trains.

This much-vaunted timetable recast seems like a massive missed opportunity.

Yep, the trains originating from Liverpool have a little longer to shuttle back to Junction and then back to Llandudno before they go back to Liverpool, and yet the return shuttle back into Llandudno seems to have been left as late as possible, rather than having them evenly spaced. I’d like to think this is because it enables connections either to or from other mainline services, but I wouldn’t bet on it! (I haven’t actually checked.) And even if that is the case, like you say, it’s no good for journeys just from Junction or Deganwy into Llandudno.

 

[Krokodil]

Yep, the trains originating from Liverpool have a little longer to shuttle back to Junction and then back to Llandudno before they go back to Liverpool, and yet the return shuttle back into Llandudno seems to have been left as late as possible, rather than having them evenly spaced. I’d like to think this is because it enables connections either to or from other mainline services, but I wouldn’t bet on it! (I haven’t actually checked.) And even if that is the case, like you say, it’s no good for journeys just from Junction or Deganwy into Llandudno.

Yes, it does appear to be based purely around connections. Provided that you don't want to go from Holyhead to Llandudno and return in an hour when the Cardiff isn't running, because the Manchesters don't connect. You can get from Llandudno to Manchester, but expect a thirty minute fester on your way back, unless it's the one hour in three that a train comes in from Blaenau.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2026 ==

Now I've thought of it, I've had a look at the situation at Shotton. Exactly the same issue, two trains ten minutes apart. It barely qualifies as a frequency increase if they're pathed so unevenly! Might as well have portion-worked them between Llandudno Junction and Chester to save crew and at least guarantee a minimum four car set.

 

[Sheridan]

Shotton is still better off though, having gone from having one train an hour, to Manchester, to having two trains an hour, to Manchester and to Liverpool. Although then again, is Shotton-Liverpool via Bidston quicker than going direct?

 

[Djgr]

Shotton is still better off though, having gone from having one train an hour, to Manchester, to having two trains an hour, to Manchester and to Liverpool. Although then again, is Shotton-Liverpool via Bidston quicker than going direct?

Even if it is, it is direct!

 

[Krokodil]

Shotton is still better off though, having gone from having one train an hour, to Manchester, to having two trains an hour, to Manchester and to Liverpool. Although then again, is Shotton-Liverpool via Bidston quicker than going direct?

If they're only 10 minutes apart they might as well only be one train per hour for anyone making a local journey from Chester or from anywhere down the coast - in the previous timetable some of the Birmingham services stopped at Shotton in peak hours so the station had a genuinely half-hourly service during the peak.

 

[chris53]

I was in Llandudno Junction today (sampling the hospitality of the Laundry Taproom) and the next stop on the pub crawl was in Llandudno. When will the next train be? Google Maps said 50 minutes time! That can't be right, surely the service has gone to half-hourly from the timetable change. So I looked it up on RTT and found that while there were indeed two trains per hour, they run a mere 10 minutes apart and having just missed one there was 50 minutes to wait for the next. Needless to say, we took the bus. The new timetable is as bad for local trips as the old one was.

Quite apart from the continued poor ferry connections at Holyhead (arrive in Holyhead from Dublin at 20:00 on a weekday and by the time that foot passengers have been able to disembark you'll have 8 hours to kill before the first train the next morning), the combining of Wrexham and Crewe shuttles might be handy for through passengers but is utterly useless for anyone wanting to access Wrexham from Manchester trains.

This much-vaunted timetable recast seems like a massive missed opportunity.

Holyhead is not the most salubrious of places to wait around eitther

 

[Starmill]

Can I please gently point out that these services, being diagrammed as two car 197s, are almost always going to be, in fact, two car 197s. By all means mention the crowding issues, and noting how many carriages are available is part of that, but being all shocked and outraged that the diagrammed traction was what turned up isn't likely to be very productive. The trains are two cars because they're not as busy as the Manchester Airport services. That's it.

If I were travelling I'd look to use an Avanti West Coast service personally, unless I wanted Shotton or Abergele & Pensarn.

 

[Krokodil]

Can I please gently point out that these services, being diagrammed as two car 197s, are almost always going to be, in fact, two car 197s. By all means mention the crowding issues, and noting how many carriages are available is part of that, but being all shocked and outraged that the diagrammed traction was what turned up isn't likely to be very productive. The trains are two cars because they're not as busy as the Manchester Airport services. That's it.

If I were travelling I'd look to use an Avanti West Coast service personally, unless I wanted Shotton or Abergele & Pensarn.

I recall that the original plan was for the services to be four coaches between Chester and Liverpool, having doubled up with the now-shelved Cardiff portions. Which is silly when you consider that Chester-Liverpool is much less busy than Llandudno-Chester because the former has competition from Merseyrail.

The thing is though, in North Wales these two-car services will run 10 minutes ahead of the Manchester services, which means that all of the Chester passengers will just pile onto the two-car Liverpool service and the only people who will bother waiting for the Manchesters will be those who actually want Warrington and Manchester.

If they were pathed a bit better, it wouldn't be an issue.