Liverpool to Llandudno TfW 2 car trains on bank holiday

[gray1404]

Total shambles of a service on the Liverpool to Llandudno service today. 2 cars on many trains. Passengers left behind at intermediate stations between Chester and Rhyl, bearing in mind there is only one journey opportunity an hour to stations like Abergele.

The direct Liverpool service is not an enhancement. It's instead of the Manchester Airport service totally disgusting TfW are running 2 carriages on it as an extension of the Liverpool to Chester service.

It's terrible they are putting 2 cars on a bank holiday. I got the impression there might have been a bit of a novelty value of the new service with people using it from Liverpool to Llandudno. However it was predictable it would be busy anyway.

 

[SECR 65]

I think TFW are short of stock - an explanation but not an excuse. I read somwhere on the forum that 153s are being brought out of storage.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I read elsewhere on this forum that Skegness "enjoyed" 2-car trains over the weekend as well. An indication, if there ever was one, about how dreadfully "third rate and we're proud of it" the modern Railway is. On the other hand, though, it appears that TPE managed to find 5- and 6-car sets for the hourly Scarborough operation.

 

[M28361M]

Such an own goal, the Liverpool-Llandudno service was launched in a blaze of publicity only a couple of weeks ago, and many people would have been trying it for the first time over the Bank Holiday weekend. No doubt put off using it ever again.

 

[Anonymous10]

Such an own goal, the Liverpool-Llandudno service was launched in a blaze of publicity only a couple of weeks ago, and many people would have been trying it for the first time over the Bank Holiday weekend. No doubt put off using it ever again.

Personally tfw really could do with a fleet nearly entirely of 3 carriage 197s.

 

[Djgr]

On the positive side, perhaps this will silence the doubters who said that there would be no demand?

 

[Rail Quest]

This concerned me going in to the new timetable as it felt like the TfW fleet was already experiencing some short forms. On the North Wales to Manchester Airport services that I use, we had a couple of short forms pre-timetable change leading to full trains and/or skipping stops. So if we take an already stretched fleet and increase the number of services, this sort of thing happens.

Is this (presumably) stock shortage caused by reliability issues with the 197s or simply a lack of units?

 

[gazthomas]

There are quite a few 197s parked up at Holyhead. Hopefully whatever is stopping them being used will get resolved soon.

 

[gray1404]

Totally a home goal on the Llandudno to Manchester service being replaced by the Liverpool to Llandudno service. Many 3 and 5 car services down to 2. There is still only 1 train per hour between Chester and Llandudno. It is by no means an enhancement.

As someone who uses Abergele and Pensarn station I feel have no choice but to use these services as we have only train per hour. It happens to be the Liverpool to Llandudno service.

 

[A.Macallan]

Totally a home goal on the Llandudno to Manchester service being replaced by the Liverpool to Llandudno service. Many 3 and 5 car services down to 2. There is still only 1 train per hour between Chester and Llandudno. It is by no means an enhancement.

As someone who uses Abergele and Pensarn station I feel have no choice but to use these services as we have only train per hour. It happens to be the Liverpool to Llandudno service

Totally a home goal on the Llandudno to Manchester service being replaced by the Liverpool to Llandudno service. Many 3 and 5 car services down to 2. There is still only 1 train per hour between Chester and Llandudno. It is by no means an enhancement.

As someone who uses Abergele and Pensarn station I feel have no choice but to use these services as we have only train per hour. It happens to be the Liverpool to Llandudno service.

…am I correct in believing that there is NO Sunday service between Liverpool and Llandudno ?!? The Liverpool trains only appear to go as far as Chester! What a way to run a railway !!! Economically, the businesses of Llandudno must surely be missing out. Please someone tell me I’ve got this wrong or that there is a very good reason for this.

 

[gray1404]

Correct. A change at Llandudno Junction would be required. Plus Chester if you're going to Liverpool.

The Sunday service on the North Wales coastline is abysmal anyway and has been for many years. Stations like Abergele have several hours gap in services, very late starts and early finishes.

The new timetable made no effort to improve service provision on a Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==

They seem to be sticking religiously to the one train per hour in each direction now certain intermediate stations. So.just the Liverpool service. Previously additional services to or from Cardiff Central or Birmingham would stop in the AM and PM peaks providing 2 trains per hour at those times. That's now gone.

 

[GlosRail]

I used it Saturday and I was standing for most of the way. For summer weekends it needs to be at least 4 coaches if not 6.

 

[Djgr]

Correct. A change at Llandudno Junction would be required. Plus Chester if you're going to Liverpool.

The Sunday service on the North Wales coastline is abysmal anyway and has been for many years. Stations like Abergele have several hours gap in services, very late starts and early finishes.

The new timetable made no effort to improve service provision on a Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2026 ==

They seem to be sticking religiously to the one train per hour in each direction now certain intermediate stations. So.just the Liverpool service. Previously additional services to or from Cardiff Central or Birmingham would stop in the AM and PM peaks providing 2 trains per hour at those times. That's now gone.

Although the Monday to Saturday service along the North Wales Coast generally appears the best for over 50 years? Lots of stations with 3 trains an hour each way.

 

[Benjwri]

There are quite a few 197s parked up at Holyhead. Hopefully whatever is stopping them being used will get resolved soon.

You should see the collection at Chester at the moment.

 

[Fredytrains]

There are quite a few 197s parked up at Holyhead. Hopefully whatever is stopping them being used will get resolved soon.

Most of the units in Holyhead are Ertms for the Cambrian, theres 2-3 failures there in storage, Somehow they are not allowed to use them until the 158 units are withdrawn, So at the moment they swapped in and out of service,

As for Disruption....
from what i understand Theres a Dispute In Holyhead At the Moment beetween Drivers and TFW due to the recent timetable update thats seen the Night shed hours change, so morning Preps are now done By night staff rather than Day drivers that used to do this, so if theres no shed cover now No trains are prepared ready for the morning, leading to massive disruption like this morning when the stock was canned for an unit as it hadnt been up to the depot, and the first 2 morning service cancelled,
This is only the beginning apparently as the new links has Holyhead drivers working møre manchester airport services so hours in the seat crazy long days and They are all refusing to work Rest days on nights as they dont finish till 7 am after perping/ washing and shunt every unit aswell as depot shunts for FPX ect,, while chester has more staff with way less work as they only shunt to depot accecss and then Day shed team that starts very early , While holyhead has lost its day turn to save On driver after spending Millions on the lathe depot theres no driver there until midday and only for a short period, going to be a long and expensive summer for TFW If they cant sort this out sooner rather than later.

 

[ayubdaud]

One of the other constraints for this is at the Liverpool end as they are platformed permissively with Northern in either platform 7 which can only take 6-cars total. Given the Northern is 3-car, then the maximum TfW can have in the current timetable is 3-car without some sort of wider timings change. Before the extra Avanti train, TfW usually used platform 10 instead.

 

[Ellis101]

Total shambles of a service on the Liverpool to Llandudno service today. 2 cars on many trains. Passengers left behind at intermediate stations between Chester and Rhyl, bearing in mind there is only one journey opportunity an hour to stations like Abergele.

The direct Liverpool service is not an enhancement. It's instead of the Manchester Airport service totally disgusting TfW are running 2 carriages on it as an extension of the Liverpool to Chester service.

It's terrible they are putting 2 cars on a bank holiday. I got the impression there might have been a bit of a novelty value of the new service with people using it from Liverpool to Llandudno. However it was predictable it would be busy anyway.

Who would've thought a generationally popular day trip destination in Liverpool finally becoming accessible to public transport would've saw so much demand!


As for it taking the place of the Manchester Airport service statistics from ORR show that leisure demand has become far more prevalent than commuter/business demand. (Which is probably more likely for a service from Manchester Airport)
It is once again TOC's underestimating the demand for leisure travel by still thinking with a Pre COVID brain and underestimating Liverpool's demand for a north wales rail link.

I must admit though 2 carriages is absolutely insane.

 

[WAB]

Is the total number of carriages on TfW services west of Chester greater or less per hour under the previous timetable?

 

[43055]

Is the total number of carriages on TfW services west of Chester greater or less per hour under the previous timetable?

It's fairly similar. Most hours it looks like a 2 car and a 3 car with a mix on the third service. Some 158's are also 4 car.

In the old timetable there were two services an hour but a couple more double sets.

 

[Jez]

There has generally been a 50% increase in services on the North Wales Coast between Chester and Llandudno Junction. Previously there was an hourly Manchester to Llandudno and an hourly service to Holyhead (one hour from Cardiff the other hour from Birmingham). Now the Manchester and Cardiff's are going to Holyhead, the Liverpools to Llandudno and the Birminghams as far as Llandudno Junction.

Whilst the Chester-Llandudno Junction section of the Liverpool service is 'new' I still think its a mistake to have many of these booked for 2 cars. Just because a service is new doesnt mean people wont use it as much. Especially with it terminating at Llandudno a destination many people want to go to especially in the Summer Months and hot weather. Naturally people are going to use this service especially changing at Chester as Llandudno is the popular destination in North Wales.

3 cars should have been booked for this new service or pairs of 2 cars to provide enough capacity. Does anyone know how busy the Manchesters are now they are going to Holyhead? Perhaps it would have been more sensible to book 4 cars on the Liverpools and 3 cars on the Manchesters for the Summer timetable.

 

[frodshamfella]

I quite often take this service from Frodsham to Liverpool , at weekends particularly when there is an event in Liverpool, trains were busy even when they were originating from Chester only. However 3 carriages were not uncommon. I Don't understand with the added popular destination of Llandudno why this service is not 3 carriages as the norm.

 

[cle]

These services should both be 4 cars.

Having 3tph along here seems a good baseline - although if the Birmingham could get to Bangor, I think that'd be a good improvement too.

I recall in the olden times (!) there were Crewe or Chester - Bangor/Holyhead stoppers, as well as Chester-Crewe shuttles (going to Wrexham?) Perhaps a few of those could be added, and they could be 2 cars, if required.

 

[Sheridan]

These services should both be 4 cars.

Having 3tph along here seems a good baseline - although if the Birmingham could get to Bangor, I think that'd be a good improvement too.

I recall in the olden times (!) there were Crewe or Chester - Bangor/Holyhead stoppers, as well as Chester-Crewe shuttles (going to Wrexham?) Perhaps a few of those could be added, and they could be 2 cars, if required.

If the Birmingham could get to Bangor it could get to Holyhead - as it’s a 2-hourly service from the north Wales Coast to Birmingham, it’s either Holyhead or Llandudno Junction (and the Junction option is the one that saves a unit).

I’m not sure what you mean by the Crewe-Chester shuttles and the ‘going to Wrexham?’ comment - could you expand on it?

 

[mmh]

as well as Chester-Crewe shuttles (going to Wrexham?)

This is what happens in the new timetable - the Crewe - Chester shuttle (running for years) has been connected with the Chester - Wrexham shuttle (a recently introduced service) to make a through service.

 

[frodshamfella]

The new Liverpool - Llandudno service, I received a new item on my phone today about it from The Independent . There is a lot of publicity which is great news, therefore its highly likely to grow in it popularity , TFW need to match the expected demand. There will also be airport passengers using this service going to Liverpool Airport, so demand for that too.

 

[Snow1964]

The new Liverpool - Llandudno service, I received a new item on my phone today about it from The Independent . There is a lot of publicity which is great news, therefore its highly likely to grow in it popularity , TFW need to match the expected demand.

Totally a home goal on the Llandudno to Manchester service being replaced by the Liverpool to Llandudno service. Many 3 and 5 car services down to 2. There is still only 1 train per hour between Chester and Llandudno. It is by no means an enhancement.

I think TFW are short of stock - an explanation but not an excuse. I read somwhere on the forum that 153s are being brought out of storage.

Complete lack of joined up thinking, launch something to encourage more people to travel, but not provide the capacity to absorb the extra travellers.

If the 153s are some sort of short term contingency plan, then plan is clearly rubbish, or too far in future rather than short term fix, because it couldn't be used on bank holiday when people were being left behind.

Then there is question of medium and longer term plan, if already had enough growth to fill trains to point where people are being left behind, why not suspend the advertising until more capacity is provided. Except they don't have extra capacity on order, and aren't switching in stored units at Holyhead in meantime. Doesn't feel like any managers in Wales are responding to people being left behind or providing quick solutions to growth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't a fairly big part of the issue the unreliability of the 197s, with nowhere near as many in service each day as was planned? After all they're actually up on stock from the long term plan given that the Cambrian is still 158s.

 

[ajp999]

Also factor in that the 2 car 197s have less seats than the 158s that they are replacing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also factor in that the 2 car 197s have less seats than the 158s that they are replacing.

Though probably higher standee capacity.

 

[cle]

This is what happens in the new timetable - the Crewe - Chester shuttle (running for years) has been connected with the Chester - Wrexham shuttle (a recently introduced service) to make a through service.

thank you - exactly this - the two shuttles being connected to form a new through service which isn't hugely relevant to the Coast line discussion, but shows passenger growth in NW as a whole.