The last push-pull / auto train in Britain?

[70014IronDuke]

I have just come across this video:

At 29'00", the filming is at Ketton + ? station (Peterboro' - Melton Mowbray line) and the narrator says this was the last push-pull working in the country. I think earlier he claimed this was 1965.

Is this correct? If I'd had to guess, I'd have thought those ex-GWR 14XX tanks at Worcester worked the last push-pull workings, but that would have been a guess.

Interesting it it happened on this line, which got next to no interest in the railway press, at least as I remember at the time. Really, the end of an era, largely overlooked by enthusiasts, it would seem.

 

[Iskra]

I have just come across this video:

At 29'00", the filming is at Ketton + ? station (Peterboro' - Melton Mowbray line) and the narrator says this was the last push-pull working in the country. I think earlier he claimed this was 1965.

Is this correct? If I'd had to guess, I'd have thought those ex-GWR 14XX tanks at Worcester worked the last push-pull workings, but that would have been a guess.

Interesting it it happened on this line, which got next to no interest in the railway press, at least as I remember at the time. Really, the end of an era, largely overlooked by enthusiasts, it would seem.

Class 37’s and DBSO’s on the Cumbrian Coast would seem to be the answer unless you’re solely referring to steam traction.

Or 67’s/91’s currently.

 

[StoneRoad]

The green set & Conwy Castle on the Festiniog used to be able to run as a push-pull service to avoid running 'round the set at Blaenau, this pairing did the "Early Bird" service for quite a few years [I guarded it quite often]

Also, during the deviation era, a diesel & coach 110 ran a service from Dduallt up to near the new tunnel.

 

[Gloster]

I have just come across this video:

At 29'00", the filming is at Ketton + ? station (Peterboro' - Melton Mowbray line) and the narrator says this was the last push-pull working in the country. I think earlier he claimed this was 1965.

Is this correct? If I'd had to guess, I'd have thought those ex-GWR 14XX tanks at Worcester worked the last push-pull workings, but that would have been a guess.

Interesting it it happened on this line, which got next to no interest in the railway press, at least as I remember at the time. Really, the end of an era, largely overlooked by enthusiasts, it would seem.

Yes, it seems that the last steam push-pull service was Seaton-Stamford, which served Ketton & Collyweston. This is reported to have lasted until 6 June 1966.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I have just come across this video:

At 29'00", the filming is at Ketton + ? station (Peterboro' - Melton Mowbray line) and the narrator says this was the last push-pull working in the country. I think earlier he claimed this was 1965.

Is this correct? If I'd had to guess, I'd have thought those ex-GWR 14XX tanks at Worcester worked the last push-pull workings, but that would have been a guess.

Interesting it it happened on this line, which got next to no interest in the railway press, at least as I remember at the time. Really, the end of an era, largely overlooked by enthusiasts, it would seem.

The Seaton - Stamford service ceased in September 1965, steam push-pull to the end. The station concerned was Ketton & Collyweston - the latter of fame as a source of architectural stone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==

Yes, it seems that the last steam push-pull service was Seaton-Stamford, which served Ketton & Collyweston. This is reported to have lasted until 6 June 1966.

Crossed posts; but the p&p fitted Ivatt & BR standard 2-6-2Ts at Leicester (41212, 84005/6/8) which were used on the service were withdrawn 4we 6/11/65. Possibly the service ran with dmu in the remaining period before closure.

 

[Gloster]

Crossed posts; but the p&p fitted Ivatt & BR standard 2-6-2Ts at Leicester (41212, 84005/6/8) which were used on the service were withdrawn 4we 6/11/65. Possibly the service ran with dmu in the remaining period before closure.

Presumably so, which is why I said ‘reported’ as the original source wasn’t given.

 

[John Luxton]

Depends how you might define a push pull train!

Are they still not running with TfW and Chiltern?

 

[Acathater]

When was the Yeovil Junction shuttle switched to a diesel railcar? I saw a steam autotrain set at the Town station in summer 1964 or 1965. Town was closed in 1966 and presumably the switch was before then, but when?

 

[StephenHunter]

Depends how you might define a push pull train!

Are they still not running with TfW and Chiltern?

Yes, with Mark 4 and Mark 5 carriages respectively.

 

[Jonny]

LNER is still running Mk4/Class 91 sets, albeit two coaches shorter than in the past. So push-pull is still there. It just needs more coaches to be economically viable.

 

[Gloster]

When was the Yeovil Junction shuttle switched to a diesel railcar? I saw a steam autotrain set at the Town station in summer 1964 or 1965. Town was closed in 1966 and presumably the switch was before then, but when?

Reportedly they took over the shuttle in December 1964, although possibly not fully for a couple of months.

 

[RT4038]

The Seaton - Stamford service ceased in September 1965, steam push-pull to the end. The station concerned was Ketton & Collyweston - the latter of fame as a source of architectural stone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==



Crossed posts; but the p&p fitted Ivatt & BR standard 2-6-2Ts at Leicester (41212, 84005/6/8) which were used on the service were withdrawn 4we 6/11/65. Possibly the service ran with dmu in the remaining period before closure.

DMUs were used between the cessation of steam push-pull in September 1965 to closure of the service on 6 June 1966.

 

[Harpo]

There’s been continuous push-pull operation in the UK since 33/TC (47/7, 91 etc.) but was there was a short period without push-pull after steam auto coaches finished and before 33/TC?

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, it seems that the last steam push-pull service was Seaton-Stamford, which served Ketton & Collyweston. This is reported to have lasted until 6 June 1966.

The Seaton - Stamford service ceased in September 1965, steam push-pull to the end. The station concerned was Ketton & Collyweston - the latter of fame as a source of architectural stone.

DMUs were used between the cessation of steam push-pull in September 1965 to closure of the service on 6 June 1966.

The DMUs took over the Seaton-Stamford shuttle on 4 October 1965. There is a report in Railway Observer November 1965.

 

[Rescars]

Thinking about 70114IronDuke's precise question, has anyone ever operated an "auto train" in the UK apart from the GWR, and if so, was it ever pulled or pushed by anything other than steam?

 

[Merle Haggard]

The DMUs took over the Seaton-Stamford shuttle on 4 October 1965. There is a report in Railway Observer November 1965.

Sorry, didn't realise it had a dmu service right at the end.
Most of the other steam 'Pull & Push' trains around here (and there was a network) lasted to their branch's closure, the exception being Northampton-Bedford which had an interregnum with Cravens two car dmus to give us a taste of the future.
One of the oddities of the Midland/LMS 'Vacuum Controlled Regulator' system was that, as is clear from the name, only the regulator was operated from the driving trailers. Driving a steam loco. requires a combination of regulator and reverser settings and the fireman on the loco must have been responsible for the latter. If, when the guard gave the 'right away' the driver had opened the regulator the train would not have moved...
I think the Southern system was similar although air rather than vacuum.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Thinking about 70114IronDuke's precise question, has anyone ever operated an "auto train" in the UK apart from the GWR, and if so, was it ever pulled or pushed by anything other than steam?

Didn't all the Big 4 and later the BR Regions all operate them?

Steam era push-pull services

I am aware of the many steam era push-pull services that once existed on the SR patch, most notably perhaps (for me) using pp fitted M7's, but got me thinking about similar services elsewhere around the country. Have a feeling the East Midlands, Stamford-Seaton-Uppingham area may also have seen...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Rescars]

Didn't all the Big 4 and later the BR Regions all operate them?

Steam era push-pull services

I am aware of the many steam era push-pull services that once existed on the SR patch, most notably perhaps (for me) using pp fitted M7's, but got me thinking about similar services elsewhere around the country. Have a feeling the East Midlands, Stamford-Seaton-Uppingham area may also have seen...

www.railforums.co.uk

I am sure you're right that they all operated push-pull services, but did anyone apart from GWR/WR call them auto trains?

 

[Merle Haggard]

I am sure you're right that they all operated push-pull services, but did anyone apart from GWR/WR call them auto trains?

The LMS/R used 'coaches fitted for motor operation'. I guess that the 'motor' was the vacuum controlled regulator

 

[Taunton]

Reportedly they took over the shuttle in December 1964, although possibly not fully for a couple of months.

Yeovil Town steam shed closed in June 1965, but didn't have any push-pull locos allocated by the end. I believe one of the WR 4-wheeled railbuses took over the shuttle.

There were a number of quite different push-pull mechanical systems devised, plus their names. Motor train; push-pull; auto train, all conceptually the same thing where the steam locomotive could be operated from the carriage running in front of it. The services were also prone to local nicknames, such as the "Darter" or the "Tiff-Tiff".

Probably the most substantial was Plymouth to Saltash, in the days before the Tamar road bridge, when Saltash was a substantial railhead for a lot of Cornwall getting to Plymouth. 4-coach trains, two either side of the 64xx Pannier Tank, so it push-pulled both ways, brought about by substantial traffic and the very cramped Saltash station with no space for shunting or running round. There were two or three such formations in circuit at peak times, with hardly a spare path over the Royal Albert Bridge.

The LMS devised a vacuum pipe controlled system, the Southern a decidedly Heath Robinson connection with wires and pulleys at cantrail level, and the GWR a mechanical system with rotating rods underneath the centreline of coaches and locos. The GWR system in particular could be stiff and hard work on the controls from the front end, especially if there were two coaches rather than one, and in some places where the timetable allowed crews would prefer not to use it, and to run round. Because of the extra responsibilities for the fireman when the driver was on the front end, only Passed Firemen were used, which made these thinly patronised services ever more expensive.

Author O S Nock had a notable experience in a Jubilee-hauled express from Bristol to Birmingham, when alongside the WR line from Stroud to Gloucester, they were actually overtaken at speed by a Chalford auto-train, running coach first with the 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco propelling in reverse. It was apparently a not uncommon event.

There was actually a government regulation (from the Board of Trade) that only two coaches maximum could be propelled, hence the Saltash "Sandwich" trains.

 

[Gloster]

Yeovil Town steam shed closed in June 1965, but didn't have any push-pull locos allocated by the end. I believe one of the WR 4-wheeled railbuses took over the shuttle.

There were a number of quite different push-pull mechanical systems devised, plus their names. Motor train; push-pull; auto train, all conceptually the same thing where the steam locomotive could be operated from the carriage running in front of it. The services were also prone to local nicknames, such as the "Darter" or the "Tiff-Tiff".

Probably the most substantial was Plymouth to Saltash, in the days before the Tamar road bridge, when Saltash was a substantial railhead for a lot of Cornwall getting to Plymouth. 4-coach trains, two either side of the 64xx Pannier Tank, so it push-pulled both ways, brought about by substantial traffic and the very cramped Saltash station with no space for shunting or running round. There were two or three such formations in circuit at peak times, with hardly a spare path over the Royal Albert Bridge.

The LMS devised a vacuum pipe controlled system, the Southern a decidedly Heath Robinson connection with wires and pulleys at cantrail level, and the GWR a mechanical system with rotating rods underneath the centreline of coaches and locos. The GWR system in particular could be stiff and hard work on the controls from the front end, especially if there were two coaches rather than one, and in some places where the timetable allowed crews would prefer not to use it, and to run round. Because of the extra responsibilities for the fireman when the driver was on the front end, only Passed Firemen were used, which made these thinly patronised services ever more expensive.

Author O S Nock had a notable experience in a Jubilee-hauled express from Bristol to Birmingham, when alongside the WR line from Stroud to Gloucester, they were actually overtaken at speed by a Chalford auto-train, running coach first with the 14xx 0-4-2T tank loco propelling in reverse. It was apparently a not uncommon event.

There was actually a government regulation (from the Board of Trade) that only two coaches maximum could be propelled, hence the Saltash "Sandwich" trains.

On the SR there were a number of malfunctions with the LSWR wire and pulley and, I think, the SECR rod systems that resulted in them being replaced from March 1929 by a compressed air system designed by the LBSCR. One result was the appearance of a number of LBSCR locos spending a period away from their home patch, even reaching Turnchapel.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Tiverton Jcn. to Tiverton 'The Tivvy Bumper' was another late one going in Oct. '64

14XXs worked the Seaton Jcn.to Seaton branch for a time after the W.R. takeover, the long serving M7 having been scrapped.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Class 37’s and DBSO’s on the Cumbrian Coast would seem to be the answer unless you’re solely referring to steam traction.

Or 67’s/91’s currently.

Ah, apols. I meant steam services.

The Seaton - Stamford service ceased in September 1965, steam push-pull to the end. The station concerned was Ketton & Collyweston - the latter of fame as a source of architectural stone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==



Crossed posts; but the p&p fitted Ivatt & BR standard 2-6-2Ts at Leicester (41212, 84005/6/8) which were used on the service were withdrawn 4we 6/11/65. Possibly the service ran with dmu in the remaining period before closure.

Amazing that it lasted so long.

When was the Yeovil Junction shuttle switched to a diesel railcar? I saw a steam autotrain set at the Town station in summer 1964 or 1965. Town was closed in 1966 and presumably the switch was before then, but when?

I caught an afternoon train from Yeovil Jcn, dep approx 16.30, to Yeovil Town in early September, 1965. It was a railbus. There was a green 820xx tank dead on shed at Town shed. No other locos, as far as I can remember.

Sorry, didn't realise it had a dmu service right at the end.
Most of the other steam 'Pull & Push' trains around here (and there was a network) lasted to their branch's closure, the exception being Northampton-Bedford which had an interregnum with Cravens two car dmus to give us a taste of the future.

Well, they used railbuses for a time on both the Bedford-Hitchen and (I think) the Bedford-Northampton branches. 1959-60-ish.
Did they not use the 2-car units on the Hitchen branch as well?

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[Gloster]

Well, they used railbuses for a time on both the Bedford-Hitchen and (I think) the Bedford-Northampton branches. 1959-60-ish.
Did they not use the 2-car units on the Hitchen branch as well?

Thanks for all the replies.

Park Royal railbuses M79971-M79973 were used on the Bedford-Hitchin line from August 1958 to February 1960, when they worked. The service appears to then have been taken over by two-car sets which (I think) lasted until closure at the end of December 1961.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Ah, apols. I meant steam services.

Amazing that it lasted so long.

I caught an afternoon train from Yeovil Jcn, dep approx 16.30, to Yeovil Town in early September, 1965. It was a railbus. There was a green 820xx tank dead on shed at Town shed. No other locos, as far as I can remember.


Well, they used railbuses for a time on both the Bedford-Hitchen and (I think) the Bedford-Northampton branches. 1959-60-ish.
Did they not use the 2-car units on the Hitchen branch as well?

Thanks for all the replies.

The Park Royal railbuses on Northampton - Bedford didn't last very long, perhaps a year or two. Sadly (or happily) I just missed them; someone did a good sales job with the Scottish Region.
The 2 - cars may well have been used on Bedford - Hitchin service; I thought at the time that the diesels worked from Northampton through to Hitchin though I might well have been wrong. If I wanted East Coast spotting I preferred Peterborough with most likely B1 haulage thence, rather than Sandy or Hitchin, and never used the service. The Bedford service definitely reverted to steam push pull before closure, with a Bedford receiving a spare Wellingborough 84000. I think that the reason for this was that Bedford's 2 car sets were grounded for some defect (they were Cravens, there would be a good choice...); this added to the spotters' feeling that diesels wouldn't catch on.
As I mentioned up thread the Northampton based push pull services (to Blisworth - Weedon - Leamington and continuing to Rugby and Coventry, to Market Harborough and Wellingborough all lasted until respective line closure - the last listed in May 1964. The carriage workings for the sets in their hayday show complete inter-working, including with the ones from Seaton Junction. I don't know why it needed to be so complicated!

 

[JohnofWessex]

...........................

There was actually a government regulation (from the Board of Trade) that only two coaches maximum could be propelled, hence the Saltash "Sandwich" trains.

Was this for mechanical systems only?

Look at for example the 3 coach Oxenhope set - corridor as well!

 

[RT4038]

The Park Royal railbuses on Northampton - Bedford didn't last very long, perhaps a year or two. Sadly (or happily) I just missed them; someone did a good sales job with the Scottish Region.
The 2 - cars may well have been used on Bedford - Hitchin service; I thought at the time that the diesels worked from Northampton through to Hitchin though I might well have been wrong. If I wanted East Coast spotting I preferred Peterborough with most likely B1 haulage thence, rather than Sandy or Hitchin, and never used the service. The Bedford service definitely reverted to steam push pull before closure, with a Bedford receiving a spare Wellingborough 84000. I think that the reason for this was that Bedford's 2 car sets were grounded for some defect (they were Cravens, there would be a good choice...); this added to the spotters' feeling that diesels wouldn't catch on.
As I mentioned up thread the Northampton based push pull services (to Blisworth - Weedon - Leamington and continuing to Rugby and Coventry, to Market Harborough and Wellingborough all lasted until respective line closure - the last listed in May 1964. The carriage workings for the sets in their hayday show complete inter-working, including with the ones from Seaton Junction. I don't know why it needed to be so complicated!

They weren't Cravens units on the Bedford-Northampton service. There is a photo of one in British Railway Pictorial - First Generation DMUs by Kevin Robertson of Derby 2 car (TOPS Class 108) with car M50986 leading awaiting departure from Northampton with 6.7pm departure on 17th July 1961. There is another picture of a similar unit in Olney on 19 November 1960 in 'Railway Images around Northamptonshire' by Coleman and Rajczonek. You are quite right that steam returned to the service - there is a picture of an Ivatt 2-6-2T at Olney on closure day 3rd March 1962 in Northamptonshire Steam by Michael Welch, and I have another picture of steam on the early morning of the last day, which I can't remember which book it is in!!

 

[Merle Haggard]

They weren't Cravens units on the Bedford-Northampton service. There is a photo of one in British Railway Pictorial - First Generation DMUs by Kevin Robertson of Derby 2 car (TOPS Class 108) with car M50986 leading awaiting departure from Northampton with 6.7pm departure on 17th July 1961. There is another picture of a similar unit in Olney on 19 November 1960 in 'Railway Images around Northamptonshire' by Coleman and Rajczonek. You are quite right that steam returned to the service - there is a picture of an Ivatt 2-6-2T at Olney on closure day 3rd March 1962 in Northamptonshire Steam by Michael Welch, and I have another picture of steam on the early morning of the last day, which I can't remember which book it is in!!

Yes, you're certainly right - I can even remember the number series around the one you quote now you mention it. Sorry!
I may have been confused with the ER based Cravens sets which I think were used on Hatfield - Dunstable and just possibly Hitchin - Bedford. Cravens sets might also have been used to strengthen the Bedford - St Pancras trains later. But I might also be wrong in all those cases, too. The Cravens sets had two cab windows and the Derby ones 3 and for some reason I thought I clearly remembered the Bedford sets having the former arrangement. Shows that relying only on memory for details of 65 years ago is probably unwise!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Cravens sets might also have been used to strengthen the Bedford - St Pancras trains later.

Not sure they were the same units. The Rolls Royce engined Class 112 and 113 (mechanically similar to the 115s and 127s respectively) looked similar to the other Cravens units (classes 105, 106) and were based at Cricklewood for a while.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, you're certainly right - I can even remember the number series around the one you quote now you mention it. Sorry!
I may have been confused with the ER based Cravens sets which I think were used on Hatfield - Dunstable and just possibly Hitchin - Bedford. Cravens sets might also have been used to strengthen the Bedford - St Pancras trains later. But I might also be wrong in all those cases, too. The Cravens sets had two cab windows and the Derby ones 3 and for some reason I thought I clearly remembered the Bedford sets having the former arrangement. Shows that relying only on memory for details of 65 years ago is probably unwise!

Where you would definitely have seen Cravens units was Bedford (St John's)-Bletchley, but only after truncation of the line.