Staff discretion to open doors at unscheduled station stops

[Ellwill]

A particular incident on GWR this time last year springs to mind, wherein a Paddington -> Carmarthen service made an unscheduled stop at Swindon for a relief driver to board, and this somehow resulted in over half a dozen passengers getting stranded after they were allowed off the train for whatever reason... I would suspect TOCs would rather not run the risk of something like this happening again and having to suffer the resulting bad publicity.

Passengers stranded after being let off train for fresh air

Couldn't find this if already posted. BBC News Train passengers were left "distressed" and "confused" when the driver of a packed train encouraged them to get off at a station for some fresh air – only to leave without them. Trevor Greenfield, 74, and his wife, Eileen, 68, were among the group...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A TfW unit was held at Deansgate (heading towards Oxford Road) and the signaller advised the driver that it was going to be a long wait, specifically saying that it would be worth opening doors. So the guard rings up Control who say "no". Absolutely ridiculous considering how well connected the station is for alternative transport.

How long did the wait end up being? I wouldn't be surprised if someone pulled the emergency open especially since it's entirely possible Deansgate is closer to their destination than Oxford Road

 

[Krokodil]

How long did the wait end up being?

No idea

 

[philthetube]

Surely, after a certain length of delay and when it is known what the cause is, when at a suitable location, such as rugby opening the doors should be down to staff discretion.

My concern with opening the doors without prior approval would be that there could be an incident occurring in the vicinity that the train staff were unaware of.

I have shown my original post, of course staff cannot open the doors if they do not know what the delay is caused by. It could be something which would be putting passengers if danger were they wandering freely.

 

[amahy]

A particular incident on GWR this time last year springs to mind, wherein a Paddington -> Carmarthen service made an unscheduled stop at Swindon for a relief driver to board, and this somehow resulted in over half a dozen passengers getting stranded after they were allowed off the train for whatever reason... I would suspect TOCs would rather not run the risk of something like this happening again and having to suffer the resulting bad publicity.

Passengers stranded after being let off train for fresh air

Couldn't find this if already posted. BBC News Train passengers were left "distressed" and "confused" when the driver of a packed train encouraged them to get off at a station for some fresh air – only to leave without them. Trevor Greenfield, 74, and his wife, Eileen, 68, were among the group...

www.railforums.co.uk

Surely, this is a case of poor communication though, and not because the doors had been opened and the passengers let off the train?

 

[LancasterRed]

Was on a fast Preston-Oxford Road a few months ago. Non-stop Chorley. The train I'd actually missed that had gone first had sadly hit someone at Adlington (Lancs). Pulled into Buckshaw, stop order called, train spun, Northern funded taxis for everyone to Bolton/Manchester

Edit: acronyms

 

[JBuchananGB]

I was also affected by Thursday’S chaos on WCML. 1343 from Liverpool came to stand at Nuneaton at 1505. About 1520 the train manager announced that the doors were unlocked, and recommended passengers for London continue via Leicester, which several hundred did, including me. This struck me as great customer service under the circumstances.

 

[bramling]

I was also affected by Thursday’S chaos on WCML. 1343 from Liverpool came to stand at Nuneaton at 1505. About 1520 the train manager announced that the doors were unlocked, and recommended passengers for London continue via Leicester, which several hundred did, including me. This struck me as great customer service under the circumstances.

No doubt it would have been challenging fitting those numbers on the 170 to Leicester, and on EMR’s short trains too.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It was full and standing, but everyone who wanted to board was able to. At Leicester some people sprinted to catch the 1612 departure to STP but my wife and I, Senior Railcard holders, waited for the 1630 nonstop service which had plenty of space.

 

[ValleyLines142]

About 18 months ago I was on a Voyager from Cheltenham to Birmingham, where we were held at Ashchurch due to a broken rail. Optimistically, the Train Manager advised us it would only be half an hour, however I knew that it was going to be longer. Quite a lot of passengers were alighting at Cheltenham, but their relatives were willing to collect them from Ashchurch or advise them to get the 41 bus. The crew initially refused, saying they'd need authorisation from control, but when I explained you'd probably have a passenger pull an egress as we were fully platformed, and crew sign Ashchurch, they soon backed down!

 

[choochoochoo]

If I was stopped at a station I was not booked to call at but I am familiar with because I regularly stop there on other services I'd speak to the signaller to see if they have any (safety related) objections to the doors being released. Control are impossible to contact during major disruption but you can usually get a quick word with the signaller.

If the signaller has said it is safe, I'd love to see my TOC try and tell me I've had a safety of the line incident. I've made a conscious decision so there's no 'lapse of concentration' stick to beat me with. (Rather have a controlled egress than emergency egresses pulled all over the train.)

Luckily all the units I drive are DOO and have Selective Door Operation and have walk-through nose-ends.

 

[Haywain]

Luckily all the units I drive are DOO and have Selective Door Operation and have walk-through nose-ends.

So if it's a DOO service how are you going to let the people who have stepped onto the platform know when you are ready to depart?

 

[357]

So if it's a DOO service how are you going to let the people who have stepped onto the platform know when you are ready to depart?

I always found a toot of the horn or the "open all doors" button worked well.

Open all doors will physically open all the doors rather than just release them and enable the open buttons.

 

[Surreytraveller]

So if it's a DOO service how are you going to let the people who have stepped onto the platform know when you are ready to depart?

Step out of the cab and shout down the platform 'Get back on the train'

 

[Sheridan]

So if it's a DOO service how are you going to let the people who have stepped onto the platform know when you are ready to depart?

What would a guard do? I’m aware that drivers have to tell the signaller when they’re leaving the cab, but that’s easy enough when the signaller phones to say that they can get moving again. Or if that’s already been arranged beforehand (e.g. the signaller has said they can go as soon as they get the signal), then just a quick call to say they’re going to inform the passengers.

As long as the initial announcement about opening doors told the passengers to remain in the vicinity of the train, then it won’t take long.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2026 ==

The Merseyrail 777 external PA would be very useful in that situation.

 

[RiverDon]

The Merseyrail 777 external PA would be very useful in that situation.

Since I started as a trainee driver I've often though that external PA speakers by the doors could be a real benefit in many situations, e.g. when coupling sets together you could warn people on the platform what's happening, to stand back and that the doors will reopen shortly. It's interesting to learn that this is a feature of the trains on Mersey rail

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Personally if i was stuck somewhere, and I knew id be there for a while, and control were not picking up, I would apply common sense and open my doors. Its not a safety of the line incident because I havent lost concentration and stopped out of course etc.

As long as you're 100% sure your train is fully accommodated on the platform and the driver has stopped the train in the correct position (rather than a position for the signal at danger).

I would argue if you hadn't stopped out of course, you've simply stopped where you were meant to and released doors as per normal operating procedures. Even if you closed them and then reopened them, it's par for the course really.

We inform control that we want to open doors, they will ask train crew to confirm that the train is fully accommodated (both ends) and if we give a valid or well reasoned argument then they almost always go with what we think is right. Normally the only reason for a refusal is if they expect the train to move within a short period of time.

 

[Parham Wood]

On a slightly pedantic note would most passengers not have a valid ticket to alight at the station?

 

[PupCuff]

At our place we say as long as someone (for want of a better word) ‘in charge’ - so control or signaller - give the okay, it’s fine to open doors. It’s no longer an unauthorised stop then. It could well be down to the fact that train operators themselves are expected to report (whether they do or not is a different kettle of fish) such instances when trains call when not authorised as a safety incident which trigger such policies. I know our place records stuff that I’d stick in the bin in a heartbeat if we didn’t have an obligation to report it onwards.

That said, for what it’s worth, speaking as someone who has worked both trains and a laptop at operators who have a fairly reasonable “permission won’t be unreasonably denied” approach to the matter I don’t think a quick call to the box or control by the crew to agree a plan of action is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Undiscovered]

I've just checked, and my TOC requires a Special Stop Order to release doors at a station not booked to call at. This would apply in times of disruption

This authority can be given verbally, either by Control or through the Signaller, and, having asked for, and received such authority, it was, in my experience, a very formal process, not something you can mistake.
We sign all stations on our routes, precisely for out if course situations, so we are aware of any hazards, both for arrival and dispatch.

Prior to releasing doors, quick check with Driver that he is accommodated, then PA to announce that we'll be held for a while, so step out, stretch your legs, have a smoke, whatever, but stay on the platform if you intend travelling further with us, and that I'll signal we're about to go with good old fashioned whistle.

 

[Bevan Price]

Releasing the doors at a station your train is not booked to call at would be a safety of the line incidenr and would go on your record unleas permission is granted ir an emergency.

Does that override Health & Safety law if a passenger could become seriously ill if confined within a grossly overheated train ?

 

[Undiscovered]

Does that override Health & Safety law if a passenger could become seriously ill if confined within a grossly overheated train ?

There is provision for this situation in the Rule Book. You can open gangway doors, both internal and external, to allow airflow, plus you can open a set of local doors, as long as you appoint a competent person to act as a door guard,and tape off the doors at shoulder and knee height.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How they are “unique” in length? 12-cars for instance run around all over the place and may need to stop out of course at a short platform.

A 12 car is 265m long, which is the longest passenger train in the UK except the Caledonian Sleeper. 12 car 20m EMUs are 240m. There also isn't full ASDO, just 11 down to 9, and I seem to recall the only possible local door is the van area one (but may be wrong on that)?

 

[choochoochoo]

So if it's a DOO service how are you going to let the people who have stepped onto the platform know when you are ready to depart?

Plenty of options. As others have said when you PA saying you'll release doors, you tell them you'll sound the horn a certain number of times before closing the doors. I also carry a whistle in my bag (not standard driver equipment these days), so could tell them to listen out for that.

I always thought external speakers at the doors would be a good idea. Where are the hustle alarm speakers for the doors ? I'm betting it would be too tricky to link those to the PA circuit ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is provision for this situation in the Rule Book. You can open gangway doors, both internal and external, to allow airflow, plus you can open a set of local doors, as long as you appoint a competent person to act as a door guard,and tape off the doors at shoulder and knee height.

That's ridiculous! Does anyone seriously think that opening one door of a potentially overheated 200m+ train would make any significant difference, other than in the vicinity of that door?

 

[NSEWonderer]

That's ridiculous! Does anyone seriously think that opening one door of a potentially overheated 200m+ train would make any significant difference, other than in the vicinity of that door?

Its the Rulebook, it may be questionable but if its ended up there then that probably occured because of something severe occurring previously

 

[styles]

There is provision for this situation in the Rule Book. You can open gangway doors, both internal and external, to allow airflow, plus you can open a set of local doors, as long as you appoint a competent person to act as a door guard,and tape off the doors at shoulder and knee height.

A bit controversial maybe, but I wish we'd just stop with locking windows.

It's all well and good not having opening windows on an Azuma with functioning air con, but the number of times I've been stuck on a rammed Sprinter and the windows are there, but locked, is not really ok. The guard can open them sure, but sometimes they struggle to make their way through the train.

 

[bahnause]

Does such a strict requirement like involving control actually make sense under the rulebook? Our swiss rulebook also sets out responsibilities, which means that while it is certainly possible to make a request to control, responsibility remains with the onboard crew. Even if control approves an action, the onboard crew remains responsible for the consequences.

 

[saismee]

A bit controversial maybe, but I wish we'd just stop with locking windows.

It's all well and good not having opening windows on an Azuma with functioning air con, but the number of times I've been stuck on a rammed Sprinter and the windows are there, but locked, is not really ok. The guard can open them sure, but sometimes they struggle to make their way through the train.

Our busy but not rammed 158 (double) today had all locked windows and it was sweltering. Conductor swapped over and then promptly walked through the full length of the train to unlock every single window. Loud but absolutely lush.

I am currently sitting on a questionably hot Avanti Evero with what feels like nonexistent air con, along with non-functioning PIS. It's quite bad but at least we aren't stuck waiting for an unknown amount of time to pass.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Does such a strict requirement like involving control actually make sense under the rulebook? Our swiss rulebook also sets out responsibilities, which means that while it is certainly possible to make a request to control, responsibility remains with the onboard crew. Even if control approves an action, the onboard crew remains responsible for the consequences.

The trouble is, there will be certain circumstances where it's obvious it's okay to open the doors. There will be other circumstances where it's obvious you shouldn't. In in between loads of grey areas. And if it goes wrong, someone needs to be blamed for doing something that wasn't authorised.
Yes, during disruption, control are overwhelmed and won't appreciate someone asking for permission to do something silly like releasing the doors, but everything these days is just one big backside covering exercise.