Staff discretion to open doors at unscheduled station stops

[philthetube]

I am currently sat on a avanti serviSce at Ruby, delayed because of a fatality down the line. For the last half hour the train manager has been apologising for not being allowed to open the doors and being unable to contact control to get permission.

Surely, after a certain length of delay and when it is known what the cause is, when at a suitable location, such as rugby opening the doors should be down to staff discretion.

 

[bramling]

I am currently sat on a avanti serviSce at Ruby, delayed because of a fatality down the line. For the last half hour the train manager has been apologising for not being allowed to open the doors and being unable to contact control to get permission.

Surely, after a certain length of delay and when it is known what the cause is, when at a suitable location, such as rugby opening the doors should be down to staff discretion.

I saw something similar a few years ago during a lengthy delay at Seaburn, when the guard point-blank refused someone to alight there from a Pacer. To be fair to the guard, she did do all the rights things including contacting control (who apparently couldn't give an answer one way or other as to whether it was permissible), but didn't really present in the best way as she still managed to give the impression of "sorry more than my job's worth", as opposed to "I'm really sorry I know it's a daft but my company just won't allow it".

Unfortunately this sort of thing is extremely provocative when there's already been a delay.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Surely, after a certain length of delay and when it is known what the cause is, when at a suitable location, such as rugby opening the doors should be down to staff discretion.

One would hope so, but when stopped at a station out of course the doors the doors are not allowed to be opened without controls permission. The trouble is as you’re guard explained getting through during disruption is hard as there is often only one person on that desk and they are getting calls from all over the place.

 

[sh24]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

 

[philthetube]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

Exactly what I am asking.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

I think it’s mainly a liability issue if someone was to get out and injure themselves, or gets left behind then, or delays the train. The first question would be asked “why were the doors released?”.

 

[Flying Snail]

And what happens when a passenger gets fed up with that nonsense and pulls an emergency evacuation handle?

Sadly, just another example of the railway's inability to apply any flexibility or common sense to any abnormal situation. An organisational structure so in love with it's bloated rules and procedures that it refuses to allow passengers to leave a train stuck at a station. Pathetic.

 

[Fedupnorthern]

I think it’s mainly a liability issue if someone was to get out and injure themselves, or gets left behind then, or delays the train. The first question would be asked “why were the doors released?”.

In reality liability should not be a significant consideration in the circumstances shared.

We can all appreciate difficulties ensuing from the rule of lawyers.

 

[zwk500]

I think it’s mainly a liability issue if someone was to get out and injure themselves, or gets left behind then, or delays the train. The first question would be asked “why were the doors released?”.

If the train is stopped in a station where that class of train ordinarily calls in passenger service, this argument feels extremely thin. I appreciate it's not your argument, you are merely reporting the position 2nd-hand.

Is there also a concern about the train needing despatch and the risk of accidentally leaving people behind in the event of the train being allowed to move again? I think GWR had an incident with the latter recently.

 

[The exile]

And what happens when a passenger gets fed up with that nonsense and pulls an emergency evacuation handle?

Sadly, just another example of the railway's inability to apply any flexibility or common sense to any abnormal situation. An organisational structure so in love with it's bloated rules and procedures that it refuses to allow passengers to leave a train stuck at a station. Pathetic.

Exactly!

 

[iamraymond]

I think it’s mainly a liability issue if someone was to get out and injure themselves, or gets left behind then, or delays the train. The first question would be asked “why were the doors released?”.

If it was a liability issue then surely it would be a liability issue everywhere? Trains tend to open their doors don't they?

 

[DarloRich]

Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

Exactly what I am asking.

i guess they might NOT have the competency to use a station they don't routinely stop at. Would Avanti have "knowledge" of, say, Tring? Will an 11 car train fit in the platform here? It should be fixable via common sense ( rather than ringing someone miles away who you wont be able to get hold of anyway!) in an emergency though because otherwise people will just bail.

Should it not be one of those "come to a clear understanding" jobs?

In reality liability should not be a significant consideration in the circumstances shared.

and then the judge asked me............
(easy to say when not your head/pension on the block!)

 

[The exile]

One would hope so, but when stopped at a station out of course the doors the doors are not allowed to be opened without controls permission. The trouble is as you’re guard explained getting through during disruption is hard as there is often only one person on that desk and they are getting calls from all over the place.

Which is an indication of the fact that only having one person available to staff that "desk" is inadequate.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Agree. Assuming the train is at least partly (and especially wholly) platformed - what IN REALITY is the increase in risk from a passenger being allowed to alight by the crew, in the knowledge that whichever door/s they are opening are adjacent to a platform at an unscheduled stop and a passenger (ditto) at a scheduled stop? The only thing I can come up with is a locked station - but that happens "live" occasionally anyway.

However on the other hand, there is increased risk, I'd suggest, to the Railway in not doing so - that of someone forcing their exit, which may well compound recovery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is an indication of the fact that only having one person available to staff that "desk" is inadequate.

Or that guards should have discretion to do stuff like this provided basic parameters are fulfilled, e.g. the train is properly platformed (or local door is used).

 

[Fokx]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

Because it then becomes a psudeo-special stop order, and requires a dispatch process to take place

 

[philthetube]

Because it then becomes a psudeo-special stop order, and requires a dispatch process to take place

But why cannot it be in the rules that a train which normally uses the station can have the doors opened during delays.

Pseudo stop orders and dispatch procedures are just excuses in these circumstances.

Totally accept that stopping at stations such as Tring is a different issue.

Having said that, West Coast stations could be risky assessed to decide where it is safe to open doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Totally accept that stopping at stations such as Tring is a different issue.

I have seen a Pendolino with the doors released at Tring during severe disruption, so it is entirely possible.

I have alighted from a Pendolino at Liverpool South Parkway during severe disruption, though it had to be done local door and may well be the only time it has happened. Control permission was required, initially they didn't want to give it according to the guard, but then changed their mind and not only allowed it but had the train terminate there. The door in the van area was used.

 

[andy33gmail]

Presumably it would eventually become false imprisonment if they no longer have a lawful justification

 

[js517]

Back in 2012 I recall someone exiting via a droplight on an HST in this scenario.

 

[357]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

They don't at my TOC.

 

[Mojo]

There are also plenty of instances of staff thinking they need permission / authority to do something whereas in fact they do not. Completely different circumstances to that mentioned in the OP, but this was picked up on in a recent RAIB report on into an incident on the Underground.

 

[172007]

Potential dumb question, but why do Control need to authorise this? Assuming the staff are competent to open doors at that station, train is in the correct position etc.

Releasing the doors at a station your train is not booked to call at would be a safety of the line incidenr and would go on your record unleas permission is granted ir an emergency.

 

[philthetube]

Yes it is but should it be?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Releasing the doors at a station your train is not booked to call at would be a safety of the line incidenr and would go on your record unleas permission is granted ir an emergency.

Not at all TOCs

Shouldn’t be the case anywhere really, there’s no safety benefit to it (the crew check if fully accommodated just the same as any other door release)

 

[mmh]

Not at all TOCs

Shouldn’t be the case anywhere really, there’s no safety benefit to it (the crew check if fully accommodated just the same as any other door release)

I thought on Avanti it's driver open, guard close, so ordinarily there is no check?

 

[voyagerdude220]

I thought on Avanti it's driver open, guard close, so ordinarily there is no check?

You're correct.

 

[Horizon22]

I personally don’t think that Control need to authorise this (and this is someone with that background).

I mean practically the chance of you being able to get through is minimal for a start and there’s a much higher priority list for controllers to get through.

The driver (or driver and guard) should come to a clear understanding and allow people to get off.

However, there is more of an issue if that means moving people onto a station that is not managed by the same operator as otherwise the station staff (if there are any) may be inundated with enquiries that they are not in a position or have the capacity to deal with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2026 ==

Releasing the doors at a station your train is not booked to call at would be a safety of the line incidenr and would go on your record unleas permission is granted ir an emergency.

Yes if running in traffic and coming to a stand and immediately releasing the doors. It would take a very officious driver management / ops standards team if it was done in the event of being trapped for an extended period of time.

This doesn’t mean that due care and attention doesn’t need to be taken; for example not releasing all doors if the train is not fully platformed or only releasing a few doors (if the stock so allows).

 

[godfreycomplex]

I personally don’t think that Control need to authorise this (and this is someone with that background).

I also have that background and I agree.

Caledonian Sleeper guards at Edinburgh (South link) sign the line through 282 stations but only routinely dispatch from 12 of them, and they have safety cases in place for evacuating/doors at unusual stations. So the capability is there.

 

[Horizon22]

There are also plenty of instances of staff thinking they need permission / authority to do something whereas in fact they do not. Completely different circumstances to that mentioned in the OP, but this was picked up on in a recent RAIB report on into an incident on the Underground.

Indeed. Sometimes staff feel like they have to get “approval” for things instead of taking their initiative. I do appreciate that some staff may have been disciplined or warned for doing something in the past so want to double-check, but it’s also a cultural issue without that.

Like relying on Control for all information directly, even though it may be available via multiple sources.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2026 ==

Which is an indication of the fact that only having one person available to staff that "desk" is inadequate.

But 95% of time having more staff is overkill. The fundamental balance of trying to resource a service control centre.

As with regards to the doors, the safety argument doesn’t apply so much for this instance as the OP is at Rugby.