Staff discretion to open doors at unscheduled station stops

[amahy]

This reminds me of one occasion on a Northern service between Preston and Hebden Bridge. There were sizeable, but not insanely long delays, due to a vehicle striking a bridge, resulting in a 41 minute late arrival at Hebden Bridge, after leaving Preston on time. The train stopped and the doors were opened at several intermediate, unscheduled stops such as Rose Grove and Rishton, without any fuss. However, I am unsure whether control had been contacted.

 

[Fokx]

It’s also worth pointing out that, the permission needed to open doors from Control isn’t actually a Control issue

It is for a station where the service isn't booked to call.

Train crew at my TOC are actually instructed to seek permission rather than use initiative.

 

[godfreycomplex]

It is for a station where the service isn't booked to call.

Train crew at my TOC are actually instructed to seek permission rather than use initiative.

Then your TOC is taking the wrong approach and should have their feet held to the fire over it

 

[dodecahedron67]

Sadly it’s due to a few incidents of people taking initiative and messing up that it’s now decreed you must seek permission at said TOC

 

[Krokodil]

I personally don’t think that Control need to authorise this (and this is someone with that background).

A TfW unit was held at Deansgate (heading towards Oxford Road) and the signaller advised the driver that it was going to be a long wait, specifically saying that it would be worth opening doors. So the guard rings up Control who say "no". Absolutely ridiculous considering how well connected the station is for alternative transport.

 

[Twotwo]

Personally if i was stuck somewhere, and I knew id be there for a while, and control were not picking up, I would apply common sense and open my doors. Its not a safety of the line incident because I havent lost concentration and stopped out of course etc.

 

[iamraymond]

Sadly it’s due to a few incidents of people taking initiative and messing up that it’s now decreed you must seek permission at said TOC

How do you mess up opening a door at a platform? Is it not part of the job?

 

[RiverDon]

As a trainee driver I work exclusively with conductors and I have no idea whether or not its allowed at my company. It was never mentioned on the training course and I've not seen any written instructions about it. To me it's obvious that if there is a long/uncertain delay, the train is fully accommodated on the platform then it is reasonable to open at least a local door if not the whole lot. Signallers will even specifically hold you in a platform if the line is blocked ahead, to stop you being trapped in the middle of nowhere - so what is the point of that if you aren't allowed to open the doors? As mentioned above it is a totally different situation from stopping additionally at an unbooked station by mistake.

I'm now going to have to ask my DTM to find out what the actual policy is for us.

 

[dodecahedron67]

How do you mess up opening a door at a platform? Is it not part of the job?

You’d be surprised…

 

[Western Sunset]

I thought that the guard was in charge of the train, or was that long ago now?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Might have been the same one, in my case it was a weekday evening and I was on the then 1824 LM to Crewe over on the slows, which I recall was later (a lot later, something like 2100) terminated short at Bletchley with nothing at all on hand to help those who were stranded, not even to tell them to go to MKC and get on Virgin, which I recall thinking was very poor as that was the last LM Crewe of the day back then.

Oh dear, doesn't sound a good experience for those passengers

But no, not the same train. In my case it was a Sunday. So that appears to show that Pendolino passengers being allowed to stretch their legs on the platform at Tring during disruption has happened multiple times.

 

[CEB24]

Avanti Train Manager's require Control approval to open the doors when stopped out of course, largely because of the unique length of their trains (c390) in particular compared to other TOCs. The TM would check the train is full accommodated before speaking the driver and then calling Control. If that TM was efficient he/she would use the call to Control to also give them a train headcount so they can do 'two birds with one stone'. But AWC are different to other TOCs due to their train lengths and how dispatch works so they do need to have Control approval before releasing the doors. Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't read the entire thread.

 

[bramling]

You’d be surprised…

I can certainly think of a number of scenarios or follow-on issues that could potentially happen.

* open at a platform that’s not the right height for the stock
* open at a closed platform
* driver moves off just as conductor attempts to open door
* doors are opened just as incident is resolved leading to prolonged delay
* abnormal dispatch procedure is followed leading to some kind of incident when the train does eventually move

But pretty much all of the above can be mitigated with coming to an understanding between driver and guard, and using the local door with everything supervised by the guard in person. If someone is going to mess that up, then one wonders if that person is a liability full stop.

 

[Horizon22]

Avanti Train Manager's require Control approval to open the doors when stopped out of course, largely because of the unique length of their trains (c390) in particular compared to other TOCs. The TM would check the train is full accommodated before speaking the driver and then calling Control. If that TM was efficient he/she would use the call to Control to also give them a train headcount so they can do 'two birds with one stone'. But AWC are different to other TOCs due to their train lengths and how dispatch works so they do need to have Control approval before releasing the doors. Sorry if this has already been covered, I haven't read the entire thread.

How they are “unique” in length? 12-cars for instance run around all over the place and may need to stop out of course at a short platform.

There are many ways to open selective doors or even just a local doors, so I’m sorry but this doesn’t sound like a reasonable operational requirement. Not saying I doubt you at all, but it certainly isn’t conducive to trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

I appreciate the dispatch is a bit more ‘quirky’ but again drivers and guards coming to a clear understanding about what is proposed, required and then confirmed and actioned as safe to do so, is achievable.

 

[LUL1970]

I was on XC to Manchester Piccadilly recently and were held outside Stockport for about 40 minutes at a red signal at which point we reversed back to Cheadle Holme where the doors were immediately opened and the majority of pax left the station to continue their journey independently. However, after about 10 minutes we were able to continue to Piccadilly with a very brief stop at the same signal. I was very surprised that they were allowed to open the doors at Cheadle and I'm sure it was not done without approval from above.
My concern with opening the doors without prior approval would be that there could be an incident occurring in the vicinity that the train staff were unaware of.

 

[Horizon22]

My concern with opening the doors without prior approval would be that there could be an incident occurring in the vicinity that the train staff were unaware of.

In what sense?

 

[LUL1970]

In what sense?

Any incident that could put people in danger, not necessarily connected with the railway.

 

[Horizon22]

It still is, AFAIK.

Definitely is, far better than being stranded between stops, especially on DOO services or at least trains with reduced crewing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2026 ==

Any incident that could put people in danger, not necessarily connected with the railway.

That's a bit vague. The signaller wouldn't be routing a train into a known dangerous situation.

 

[LUL1970]

Definitely is, far better than being stranded between stops, especially on DOO services or at least trains with reduced crewing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Apr 2026 ==



That's a bit vague. The signaller wouldn't be routing a train into a known dangerous situation.

Totally agree, that's why I said in this instance, I believe that authority came from on high.
The second point about opening the doors without authorisation was not meant to be related to my experience but to the wider topic. Sorry if I didn't make that clear

 

[godfreycomplex]

You’d be surprised…

Whatever the reason is it probably isn't a good enough reason, sadly. There's too much at stake in situations like this

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The requirement to even open the doors would be subject very local conditions, a pendolino with a 'comfortable' number of passengers in a nice Aircon train in the middle of summer (or heated train in the winter) is very different from a packed commuter train on a hot summers day and only really the guard would know.
The issue really is symptomatic of how the country works, railways at the extreme, if a passenger fell onto the platform - whether right or wrong to open doors in a common sense point of view - the TOC doesn't want the publicity and expense of the investigation/ court case etc. and therefore common sense goes out the window (the question is always asked was process followed in the thinking of the process was wrong it can be fixed).

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Any incident that could put people in danger, not necessarily connected with the railway.

Surely that argument would mean never opening the doors at any unstaffed station, as something unconnected with the railway might be happening there...

 

[mmh]

How do you mess up opening a door at a platform? Is it not part of the job?

You could open them on the wrong side, pretty sure that's happens.

But that will (could) happen outside of disruption.

The actual problem is, as ever, "the railway" acting as if it has safety standards which can't possibly be breached (which would be a good thing) while simultaneously having different standards all over the place, which is just nonsensical.

Zero chance that will change under GBR.

 

[LUL1970]

Surely that argument would mean never opening the doors at any unstaffed station, as something unconnected with the railway might be happening there...

But if the incident is known to railway control they could tell scheduled services at that station to not open train doors. Staff on an unscheduled service would not have the benefit of that warning

 

[Horizon22]

But if the incident is known to railway control they could tell scheduled services at that station to not open train doors. Staff on an unscheduled service would not have the benefit of that warning

Yes that's a very different matter if for example there is a known hazard or emergency services incident preventing trains alighting. However if this was the case, it would be more likely a station skip to all traffic would be initiated, preventing any trains from calling.

 

[LUL1970]

Yes that's a very different matter if for example there is a known hazard or emergency services incident preventing trains alighting. However if this was the case, it would be more likely a station skip to all traffic would be initiated, preventing any trains from calling.

Interesting discussion. You are probably correct. It would be an unlikely scenario, mostly been playing devil's advocate.

 

[blimmo]

It's not even risk averse really though, given that the driver/guard following the process described here and opening the doors is far less risky than trying to force passengers to stay onboard and letting them take matters into their own hands

This. Putting safety above convenience is usually sensible but here I don't think this reduces the risk. It's just the bias towards not doing something as a way to avoid blame (on behalf of the ToC not the guard/driver to be clear).

"Don't open the doors since that could be risky" ok but what is the risk of *not* opening the doors? The passengers do it themselves which is inherently more risky.

 

[Falcon1200]

So the guard rings up Control who say "no".

It would be worth knowing why, ie what instructions Controllers have been given for such situations.

 

[Peter0124]

A TfW unit was held at Deansgate (heading towards Oxford Road) and the signaller advised the driver that it was going to be a long wait, specifically saying that it would be worth opening doors. So the guard rings up Control who say "no". Absolutely ridiculous considering how well connected the station is for alternative transport.

Also ridiculous considering the distance from Oxford Road.

 

[185143]

Also ridiculous considering the distance from Oxford Road.

Indeed. Easy walking distance to Oxford Road, jump on the tram to Piccadilly/East Didsbury/Airport.

"Apologies, we're going to be here for some time, and highly likely to terminate at Piccadilly if so. I'm going to release the doors so you can get the tram to Piccadilly, East Didsbury and the Airport if you wish. Of course, we will get the train moving again as soon as possible but I can't give a timescale. So if you wish to take the alternative, feel free to do so."

Look out of window. Fully accommodated. Give full release.

Sounds far too difficult that does!