Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[Flamingo]

Have you considered a career with Ryanair?

No, I actually do give good customer services. I just expect people to take some responsibility for their own lives. I know it's a novel idea, but the results of people thinking that they don't have to were plastered all over England a few weeks ago.

Ryanair have Byzantine T&C that are purposefully inflexible to catch people out and ensure that they incur charges that are levied in a draconian manner.

Contrary to what the Daily Mail would have you believe, the railway T&C's are not strictly enforced, and on balance, most ticket irregularities are overlooked / not found. Which I believe is the reason that threads like this come up on a regular basis, as the enforcement of T&C and bylaws is so infrequent that people react in shock and horror when it does happen.

 

[exile]

Don't be so bloody lazy and get out of bed earlier - don't blame everybody else for your lack of planning

So, there are 3 separate failures of the TOC to sell me a ticket and the train is 30 minutes late. And yet it's somehow my fault.

 

[radamfi]

So, rail employees are advising us not to travel by train. I wonder if it's part of a plot - the McNulty plan.

I find that extremely disturbing. The whole point of train travel is to cut car usage and congestion. Cutting car usage is far, far more important than revenue collection. If people get the occasional free trip because the TOC can't be bothered to collect the fare when offered then so be it.

 

[WestCoast]

No, I actually do give good customer services. I just expect people to take some responsibility for their own lives. I know it's a novel idea, but the results of people thinking that they don't have to were plastered all over England a few weeks ago.

Likewise, I expect the TOC to provide enough chances to pay the fare. This is probably a very Northern-specifc problem which is why I don't think some posters aren't grasping what people are getting at here.There's no point arriving early at the station, there is no point, I can't buy one there!!

So, I have to leave even earlier to allow time to queue for 20 minutes at Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[Flamingo]

So, rail employees are advising us not to travel by train. I wonder if it's part of a plot - the McNulty plan.

No, some anonymous bloke on an internet chat site is telling you to take some responsibility for your own life, and stop trying to find someone else to blame because you can't get your s*** together.

Who I work for is irrelevant. I am not at work or acting in any sort of an official capacity. If I was I would have put "Sir" at the end of the post

 

[Old Timer]

The TOC should provide an opportunity to buy a ticket either before boarding - immediately before, I mean, or on the train. If the conductor can't sell tickets he/she should make an announcement stating where in the destination station passengers can buy tickets, and alert the ticket office to expect 100-plus ticketless passengers.

I'm due at an interview at 10am. I join at an unstaffed station and there's no ticket machine (or it's not working). The guard can't sell me a ticket as his machine is bust. The train arrives 30 minutes late at 9.45 and I have a 10 minute taxi ride to the interview. There's no excess fares window and there's a 10 minute queue at the ticket office.

Advise me what to do, please. Obviously I could buy a return ticket when I get back to the station on my way home and that would play fair by the TOC - but how can I prove I intended that to the Revenue man who stops me at the station exit as I sprint towards the taxi?

Quite simple. You explain the circumstances and the need to exit the station quickly and give your name and ddress to the Guard. Simples.

S5 1889 Act complied with no liability.

However how often are the circumstances that you offer going to line up ? A little forward planning to give yourself just that little bit more time would surely be a sensible act.

That said I think leaving a 20 minute window for an interview is not optimal. What if there is a road accident and theroads are choked ? What then ?

 

[radamfi]

So, I have to leave even earlier to allow time to queue for 20 minutes at Manchester Piccadilly?

Yes, he is expecting you to get the earlier train, which might be an hour earlier.

 

[Flamingo]

Likewise, I expect the TOC to provide enough chances to pay the fare. This is probably a very Northern-specifc problem which is why I don't think some posters aren't grasping what people are getting at here.There's no point arriving early at the station, there is no point, I can't buy one there!!

So, I have to leave even earlier to allow time to queue for 20 minutes at Manchester Piccadilly?

I don't work for Northern but if need be, then yes, i would say.

 

[richw]

If it is that much of an inconvenience, then use a different method of travel. It's called market forces.

What were trying to ask is,
We turn up at our origin in more than enough time to find ticket office, guard then does not provide opportunity to buy ticket on board, arrive destination and need to rush to an appointment or interview to find a substantial queue.

If i decided to queue and missed an interview/ lost my job due to lateness, I would be well within my rights to claim for losses against that TOC.
Surely the aim is to get more passengers onto trains, yet the inability of certain TOCs to offer a chance to buy tickets.

Flamingo your TOC is not in question here, and without failure yours provide opportunity to buy tickets.If its any compliment i'd say your TOC has probably the best customer service i've travelled on. Always plenty of opportunity to buy tickets. Your colleagues are always happy and will have a chat about anything random that suits the day. This can't be said for staff on certain other TOCS.
A TOC in the manchester area is not offering passengers a reasonable chance to buy a ticket, then pounce with RPIS which is what started this discussion.

 

[radamfi]

It seems to be the case that the easier it is to buy a ticket these days (compared with say 30 years ago)

That might be the case in the SE but in Northern area 30 years ago you would have had staffed stations everywhere so would never need to pay at the destination.

 

[exile]

Any chance of having this one answered please? This is simply because what if the guard cannot be found? i.e has locked themselves in the back and not appeared to check tickets.

That does happen, usually on late evening services, which is also when most stations are unstaffed. I suspect a lot of passengers get free travel at such times.

 

[richw]

Quite simple. You explain the circumstances and the need to exit the station quickly and give your name and ddress to the Guard. Simples.

S5 1889 Act complied with no liability.

However how often are the circumstances that you offer going to line up ? A little forward planning to give yourself just that little bit more time would surely be a sensible act.

That said I think leaving a 20 minute window for an interview is not optimal. What if there is a road accident and theroads are choked ? What then ?

Hes saying IF the train has already been delayed, he has left longer than a 20min window in his scenario.

 

[northwichcat]

If I go off an unmanned platform at Paddington late at night, after the barriers are known to be open at Reading, do you know how many tickets I will sell? There are TVM's and an open booking office with minimal/no queues, and the most common excuse I will hear is "I don't need to buy tickets at this time of night". I'll sell a few dozen some nights.

That doesn't seem related to the point I was making, so I'll give you an example.

Lostock Gralam is a unstaffed station.

A passenger travels from there to Manchester Piccadilly, intending to return in the evening. He should pay £11.00 for an Anytime Return.

The conductor doesn't have a working ticket machine so doesn't make their way through the train.

On arrival at Manchester Piccadilly there are no RPI staff at the platform the train arrives at.

Scenario 1:
The passenger makes their way to the ticket office after alighting the 09:36 arrival, as you've suggested they must do. He asks for a Lostock Gralam return and gets sold a £8.10 Off Peak Return - as it's after 09:30 now.

Scenario 2:
He waits until making his return journey in the evening and then uses a ticket machine to buy an £8.00 single.

Scenario 3:
He boards the train in the evening without buying a ticket and then is completely honest when the conductor comes through - the conductor asks him which train he had boarded earlier and then sold him the £11 ticket.

In your earlier posts you seem to imply Scenario 3 is worse than Scenario 1 as the passenger has left the station without buying a ticket.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, he is expecting you to get the earlier train, which might be an hour earlier.

It would be an hour earlier in some cases. Great.

Sensible train operators on the continent have an interesting solution, on local services they put a TVM on the train and the guard is there to assist passengers with that if required. Works rather well actually.

 

[Old Timer]

(Split from Northern Rail letter asking me why I failed to pay a fare posted by lilykitten )

Are there any notices advising that if no ticket facilities are available at start or on train you must purchase at end station?

If not publicly available through posters or announcements that you should pay on exit, then surely no grounds to expect a passenger to be charged any additional penalties?

This information has to be available by notifications on train or stations to be enforced

It is my understanding that suitable notices are provided at unstaffed stations, and other locations where an office may be unstaffed on a regular basis.

 

[Flamingo]

I find that extremely disturbing. The whole point of train travel is to cut car usage and congestion. Cutting car usage is far, far more important than revenue collection. If people get the occasional free trip because the TOC can't be bothered to collect the fare when offered then so be it.

The whole point of train travel is to get people from A to B. Trains were around before there were cars and road congestion.

Otherwise, why doesn't the government fund the railways 100% from taxes and cut rail fares to zero?

 

[island]

To me it is no different to shoplifting where, as far as I am aware, you cannot be prosecuted until you leave the shop, therefore, demonstrating that you do not have an intention to pay. Until then you can put goods in your pockets, under your hat etc. you have not committed an offence by doing so as long as you then pay for them.

Roy

OT, but that is true only in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Scots law has the wonderfully-named offence of "concealment with intent to deprive" which is committed when you hide the item.

 

[Flamingo]

That doesn't seem related to the point I was making, so I'll give you an example.

Lostock Gralam is a unstaffed station.

A passenger travels from there to Manchester Piccadilly, intending to return in the evening. He should pay £11.00 for an Anytime Return.

The conductor doesn't have a working ticket machine so doesn't make their way through the train.

On arrival at Manchester Piccadilly there are no RPI staff at the platform the train arrives at.

Scenario 1:
The passenger makes their way to the ticket office after alighting the 09:36 arrival, as you've suggested they must do. He asks for a Lostock Gralam return and gets sold a £8.10 Off Peak Return - as it's after 09:30 now.

Scenario 2:
He waits until making his return journey in the evening and then uses a ticket machine to buy an £8.00 single.

Scenario 3:
He boards the train in the evening without buying a ticket and then is completely honest when the conductor comes through - the conductor asks him which train he had boarded earlier and then sold him the £11 ticket.

In your earlier posts you seem to imply Scenario 3 is worse than Scenario 1 as the passenger has left the station without buying a ticket.

I'm saying that Scenario 3 just wouldn't happen, and scenario 1 and 2 will probably only happen in the majority of cases if there was some risk of being nabbed on leaving the station.

 

[Old Timer]

....The conductor doesn't have a working ticket machine so doesn't make their way through the train.......

This keeps coming up time and time again in these circular arguments.

Can any guard or RPI on here suggest how likely this is ?????

 

[richw]

I'm saying that Scenario 3 just wouldn't happen.

Why not? Bring in a 100% honest traveller, say one of you guys who are preaching the rules religiously here were put into the 3 scenarios?

 

[WestCoast]

It is my understanding that suitable notices are provided at unstaffed stations, and other locations where an office may be unstaffed on a regular basis.

The notices I have seen say, and I quote, "tickets must be purchased from the conductor on the train". Nothing is mentioned about buying at the destination, it may well be different (I think it is) at PERTIS stations on Southern/Southeastern.

Can any guard or RPI on here suggest how likely this is ?????

I'm not staff, but from what has been said, Avantix doesn't seem to be reliable 100% of the time. But not all that likely in my experience.

 

[nedchester]

What is a passenger supposed to do if they board at an unmanned station (no TVM) and get off at an unmanned station with a TVM?

Now although the destination station does have a TVM you cannot buy a ticket from where you have come???

 

[Flamingo]

This keeps coming up time and time again in these circular arguments.

Can any guard or RPI on here suggest how likely this is ?????

I could probably count on one hand the number of times it has happened to me in the past five+ years. (It'll probably happen tomorrow now that I've said that!)

 

[DelayRepay]

You don't have an opportunity to buy a ticket at that point I guess.

How long does this obligation last for, though? Assuming I'm travelling between two unmanned stations, but then a week later catch another train, when the guard comes round I have an opportunity to buy a ticket for the first journey. But am I obliged (legally) to?

 

[Flamingo]

The argument, going from both the post that started this, and from what other posters have said, is that if it is too inconvenient to buy a ticket, then passengers don't need to, and can walk out of the station with a clear conscience. Added to his, any attempt by the TOC to check them for tickets as they are leaving is unfair in these circumstances.

I'm saying that this is not the case, and is just an attempt by fare evaders to justify their actions in their own minds.

I believe that the courts have backed my view on more than one occasion.

 

[island]

What is a passenger supposed to do if they board at an unmanned station (no TVM) and get off at an unmanned station with a TVM?

Now although the destination station does have a TVM you cannot buy a ticket from where you have come???

I would consider that the passenger gets a free ride in these circumstances. I am told some people will buy a single in the opposite direction. I have taken the free ride once myself (although the ticket I would have been buying was not a ticket that a TVM would sell).

 

[radamfi]

The whole point of train travel is to get people from A to B. Trains were around before there were cars and road congestion.

Otherwise, why doesn't the government fund the railways 100% from taxes and cut rail fares to zero?

Er, because government policy is wrong?

I find myself in a bit of a moral dilemma. Is it better to support the railways and use them even when the service is substandard, or is it the kindest thing to use the car instead so trains become empty so the government has to sort it out?

 

[Polarbear]

Today, I travelled from Marple. Arrived at Marple at 10:20 to find the lights on in the ticket office, but the blinds pulled down as the staff were on their break. OK, but no TVM at the station so no option but to buy on board.

Train arrives on time - two 142's - which one is the guard located in? Now I'm a seasoned traveller so I know where to look & I jump on the 142 with the guard who sells me the ticket. This was after he'd dealt with a few other customers, some of whom were clearly inexperienced at this "buying on train" business. Lots of rummaging around for purses/wallets, I'd suggest with an expectation of not paying at all.

However, I'm a seasoned traveller who knows what the score is & I know that it's best to get in the portion of the train with the guard if I want to buy a ticket on board. How many others would think to do the same? certainly, there's nothing to tell the great travelling public the procedure.

Similarly, I travelled from Heald Green on Sunday - no ticket office, no TVM but the guard on the train was rushed off his feet running up & down the 323 trying to check/sell tickets. as well as operate the doors & undertake all the required safety procedures.

The Northern staff at the sharp end are pretty darned good & do a fantastic job in sometimes difficult circumstances. It's a shame the same cannot be said for those making decisions regarding revenue collection at management grade.


Entrapment is a harsh word, but given the woeful lack of resource Northern provide as regards retail facilities, it's pretty close to the wire in my opinion.

 

[WestCoast]

The argument, going from both the post that started this, and from what other posters have said, is that if it is too inconvenient to buy a ticket, then passengers don't need to, and can walk out of the station with a clear conscience. Added to his, any attempt by the TOC to check them for tickets as they are leaving is unfair in these circumstances.

I would say it's fair to request that passengers do purchase a ticket once the journey has ended (they've used the service), I just wish certain TOCs would offer more appropriate ways of doing so.

I don't want to extend my journey by an hour, because I am directed to a heaving travel centre upon arrival at Manchester Piccadilly. Make sure there are people ready to sell me that ticket upon arrival (RPIs or TVMs e.t.c) without causing too much of a delay. That's sensible and is good customer service.

 

[Flamingo]

Look up the figures for Grangetown Station near Cardiff Central

2004/05 * 0.601 million
2005/06 * decrease 0.326 million
2006/07 * decrease 115,108
2007/08 * increase 124,937
2008/09 * increase 133,478
2009/10 * increase 134,360

The reason for the huge drop in travel from Grangetown was nothing to do with the local demographic, but that barriers were put in place on the majority of South Wales stations, so the option of boarding without a ticket and then asking for a ticket from Grangetown at the barriers in Cardiff was drastically reduced. This is an arguement for not allowing passengers to board without tickets, i would say, and also supports my point that a large number of people will not ask for the correct journey unless challenged.