Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

[Old Timer]

It all used to be much easier - you had to pass some sort of staffed barrier before you boarded, and there was someone to take your ticket when you got off. And your chances of not having your ticket checked on board were virtually nil. Now I can see why TOCs want to cut staff numbers and wages - but surely there comes a point where they're losing too much revenue by doing so -and McNulty seems to suggest more of the same.

I should not take too much notice of McNulty. He is one of these people who are paid to think the unthinkable by Governments from time to time.

I agree with you about demanning stations but that really has to be put down to Labour's failure to prohibit this in their desperate rush for money from every source.

The problem is that the TOCs are now run by accountants and managers who are incapable of recognising that there is a sizeable amount of fare evasion going on.

It becomes more iniquitous when stations are demanned, and in addition some TOCs will sell reduced rate tickets on board even when someone has boraded at a station where they could have purchased a ticket.

This is cloaked under the fatuous "Customer service" but its all supermarket style hype and balls really.

Rail passenger services are treated as distress purchases like washing machines and cookers by certain elements of the population - only paid for when there is no alternative. The sooner TOCs stop acting like supermarkets and start to address the proper manning and protection of revenue then we are going to get these continuing debates and issues. The thing is that I am convinced that there are some really large sums to be had simply by manning up stations properly. I proved this when I worked for BR, and I am certain that it still applies, indeed thinking about it, Flamingo mentioned the Port Talbot effect earlier !

 

[WestCoast]

Ticketing in London (nevermind the Netherlands, ironically the Dutch operator jointly operates Northern with Serco) seems vastly superior and futuristic compared to the aforementioned Northern routes into Manchester e.t.c.

European operators deal with unstaffed stations by having ticket machines onboard. However, this is mainly for rural halts, stations in large conurbations usually have some form of ticket purchasing option.

 

[Old Timer]

Is it so wrong to expect ticket buying to be as convenient as in other parts of Europe?

For example in the Netherlands, every station has a TVM which accepts coins and cards (but not notes which I admit is a problem for foreigners but not the Dutch). You can buy a print at home ticket for any walk on journey. If you have an OV-Chipkaart smartcard, you don't ever have to visit a TVM ever again if you link it to your bank account as you just swipe in and swipe out.

(Most of the above is also enjoyed by TfL Oyster card holders).

It seems silly to deter potential travellers just because the ticket buying process is difficult.

I absolutely agree. It makes no sense to me as an old BR dinosaur at all.

 

[b0b]

The problem is that the TOCs are now run by accountants and managers who are incapable of recognising that there is a sizeable amount of fare evasion going on.

I'm sure they're capable of recognizing the amount of evasion, and the cost of collecting the additional revenue, like any other business.

 

[Old Timer]

Ticketing in London (nevermind the Netherlands, ironically the Dutch operator jointly operates Northern with Serco) seems vastly superior and futuristic compared to the aforementioned Northern routes into Manchester e.t.c.

European operators deal with unstaffed stations by having ticket machines onboard. However, this is mainly for rural halts, stations in large conurbations usually have some form of ticket purchasing option.

Again, agreed !

I think also that there is a cultural difference to contend with.

The UK has a much more aggressive and self centred culture, made worse by the desire to get something for nothing that seems so prevalent these days than ever before.

I'm sure they're capable of recognizing the amount of evasion, and the cost of collecting the additional revenue, like any other business.

I don't hold the same view to be honest. Take the Cross-City line in the West Midlands.

Under the PTE arrangements in BR days EVERY station had to be manned and there was hell to pay if they were not.

Nowadays even largely used stations are regularly unmanned after the evening peak and the whole connurbation could be said to be a free travel zone most times.

 

[daikilo]

I have not been able to find a statement from Northern Rail that if you are not able to purchase a ticket at the departure station nor been given the opportunity to do so from the train crew then you should do so before leaving the arrival station (there being, I assume) no physical barrier or obvious sign to warn you that you would be committing an offence if you were to pass that point without being in possession of a ticket).

 

[richw]

Rereading this thread I think another question we should be asking is:
Why aren't tocs giving a fair acceptable opportunity to purchase tickets?
Also I think some of the posters are failing to grasp that many of the questions are scenarios putting an infrequent traveller into the scenario. How does an infrequent traveller who just spontaneously turns up know the procedures. I've known people who have turned up at station and caught the first train to wherever for a day out. These people rarely use train services. No opportunity to buy before or on a train. They arrive at destination, how do they know the procedure for getting the tickets?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Other people have reported similar scenarios with G4S at Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria. There was a post in another thread where someone else claimed as soon as they walked past the ticket office at Piccadilly after alighting a Northern service they were pounced on by G4S asking for tickets who claimed he/she has forfeited their right to purchase a ticket by walking past the ticket office.

On the 1st point I can definetly say I have never seen that at Mcr Piccadilly I am sure network rail would go berserk if that happened

I think that must be one of the cases in which I have been involved. I have to report that it is still ongoing despite the passenger's repeated attempts to make payment on-board, at the destination and more than once subsequently. I will say no more about that while it is an active matter.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sure they're capable of recognizing the amount of evasion, and the cost of collecting the additional revenue, like any other business.

The missing revenue is a "possible" number, whereas the cost of collecting it is a definite. It's always easier to get rid of a definite number than gamble on a possible income! Also, after a certain point, the old 90/10 rule comes into play.

Going back to my figures posted about South Wales, the cost of fare evaders would be several million, given the drop of tickets sold from Grangetown as over 500000 a year. Add in the other stations that "short" tickets are asked from, and the increased revenue would easily pay for staff. But ATW don't even emply any RPI's because someone has worked out it is not worth the cost.

And don't get me started on PF's, South Wales is the ideal place to do these, but ATW would never do the investment required (and the Assembly would go mad at the thoughts of all those disgruntled voters)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also I think some of the posters are failing to grasp that many of the questions are scenarios putting an infrequent traveller into the scenario. How does an infrequent traveller who just spontaneously turns up know the procedures. I've known people who have turned up at station and caught the first train to wherever for a day out. These people rarely use train services. No opportunity to buy before or on a train. They arrive at destination, how do they know the procedure for getting the tickets?

But they know they need them. I only travel by plane every three or four years, but I know not to turn up to Heathrow without my passport.

 

[Old Timer]

Rereading this thread I think another question we should be asking is:
Why aren't tocs giving a fair acceptable opportunity to purchase tickets?
Also I think some of the posters are failing to grasp that many of the questions are scenarios putting an infrequent traveller into the scenario. How does an infrequent traveller who just spontaneously turns up know the procedures. I've known people who have turned up at station and caught the first train to wherever for a day out. These people rarely use train services. No opportunity to buy before or on a train. They arrive at destination, how do they know the procedure for getting the tickets?

So they turn up at a station they never use, and get on the first train out to a destination they have no knowledge about, using a mode of transport they rarely use ?

Hmmm - enough said I think.

 

[richw]

Yes they know they need them, but do they know the procedure to get one at destination? I'd look for ticket office, but what if I come to a barrier first then what happens?

 

[Old Timer]

Yes they know they need them, but do they know the procedure to get one at destination? I'd look for ticket office, but what if I come to a barrier first then what happens?

Well firstly if they approach life in such a manner as that I despair.

Most normal people would do a little research first.

If they come to a barrier then they should not be able to pass through, which should be something of a giveaway that there is a reason for this ?

 

[Flamingo]

Yes they know they need them, but do they know the procedure to get one at destination? I'd look for ticket office, but what if I come to a barrier first then what happens?

Then ask the nice man/woman on the barrier where to buy a ticket from

 

[Greenback]

I agree that more needs to be done to allow people to pay for their journey before starting their journey, or at least during it. It would be my preference for more ticket offices with longer hours, but reversing the trend of reducing them would be a start. Sadly, that costs money, and TOC's seem to think it is more cost effective ie profitable to concentrate limited resources on prosecuting people instead.

Of course, there is nothing wrong in buying on arrival now and again, but should only happen in limited circumstances. There are far too many unstaffed stations with no TVM's, and packed trains which the guard can't get through. And barriers are not the whole answer either, the opportunists and evaders will normally buy a short ticket and get away with it.

TOC's would have a much better case morally if they ensured that better ticket purchasing facilities are available.

 

[martinsh]

Is it so wrong to expect ticket buying to be as convenient as in other parts of Europe?

For example in the Netherlands, every station has a TVM which accepts coins and cards (but not notes which I admit is a problem for foreigners but not the Dutch). .

Yres, but they don't accept any cards that someone from the UK is likely to have. And if you go to a ticket window, they charge you extra for the privilege !

 

[richw]

So they turn up at a station they never use, and get on the first train out to a destination they have no knowledge about, using a mode of transport they rarely use ?

Hmmm - enough said I think.

if i have a day off work, and i have nothing planned and decide i fancy a day out when i wake up in the morning. i have on more than one occasion turned up at my local station without looking at a timetable, and caught the next train to somewhere. My local station has no ticket facilities so i rely on the guard coming to sell me tickets. I pick somewhere off the trains stops i have never visited before and go and explore for the day. I have no knowledge of my destination 9 times out of 10, although im fully knowledgable of the rail network etc, so know the procedures.
Would someone less knowledgeable than me turn up spontaneously at a station and travel to a new destination and explore? I dont know but i'd assume so.

 

[bnm]

I agree with you about demanning stations but that really has to be put down to Labour's failure to prohibit this in their desperate rush for money from every source.

Nice try. I believe exile was referring to manned barriers. Wasn't it BR in the 1980s (which flavour of Govt. did we have then?) who brought in the 'Open Stations' policy?

 

[Greenback]

Sometimes myself and Mrs Greenback decide to go out on the spur of the moment. These are usualyl quite short trips, such as to Carmarthen, Llandeilo or Swansea, maybe even Cardiff if we are feeling daring!

If we book tickets in advance, and then the weather is bad or one of us ill, or something comes up, we won't get a refund on those tickets. I think that there are quite a few people who take the train on the spur of the moment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nice try. I believe exile was referring to manned barriers. Wasn't it BR in the 1980s (which flavour of Govt. did we have then?) who brought in the 'Open Stations' policy?

Mrs Greenback informs that Llanelli ticket office was open until the evening up to 1992 or 1993. I believe that Llandeilo and Llandovery closed down at the same time.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Consider this then? If one boarded at a station where it had only a PETRIS machine but one had no coins (only say a visa card), one then boarded a train to head to where one was going, then disembarked, went to ticket office window there where there was again no staff, no ATM (near either station), how would one stand then (hypothettically?)?

 

[snail]

My point is more that certain posters seem to think that they have no responsibility to buy the ticket unless physically asked, either at a barrier or on-board train, and that being asked to pay for the service AFTER using it is incorrect.

This is what Northern print in their timetable booklets:

Buying your ticket
You can buy your ticket from station ticket offices, quickfare
ticket machines and some travel agents. If your journey starts
at a station where no staff are in attendance, you can buy your
ticket from the conductor on the train.
It is your responsibility to buy a ticket for the journey you
are making. Northern has a ‘zero-tolerance’ policy on people
who avoid paying fares and you risk prosecution if you travel
without a valid ticket or pass.

As a customer I shouldn't have to go out of my way to seek out someone to pay my fare to. If I didn't know better I wouldn't automatically read that direction as including the possibility of buying a ticket at the destination. Adding 20 minutes to my journey schedule just in case the conductor doesn't come round selling tickets and I have to queue at Manchester Piccadilly is totally unreasonable.

 

[Old Timer]

Nice try. I believe exile was referring to manned barriers. Wasn't it BR in the 1980s (which flavour of Govt. did we have then?) who brought in the 'Open Stations' policy?

Niced try but this was substituted by enhanced on train ticket checking and additional TTI squads.

Comment about Labour still applies as they set the specification under which the franchises were let.

 

[richw]

Snail. That article says before or on the train. Therefore you need to seek out the conductor on the train. Their guidelines say it is not acceptable to purchase at destination, due to the wording. This would stand against passenger in court as its clearly worded to state its your responsibility. Your responsibility therefore includes finding conductor and getting said conductor to sell you the ticket on board!

 

[WelshBluebird]

The post was in response to the fact that the booking office at the origin station was closed, and there were no other facilities. Something I suspect is now very much the exception

Depends what part of the country it is in. Certainly in many parts of the country it is not the exception and is the norm.

 

[Old Timer]

Consider this then? If one boarded at a station where it had only a PETRIS machine but one had no coins (only say a visa card), one then boarded a train to head to where one was going, then disembarked, went to ticket office window there where there was again no staff, no ATM (near either station), how would one stand then (hypothettically?)?

The answer is quite simple.

If there is no opportunity or facilities to pay the fare then there is no way of paying, thus the loss is to the TOC.

To deliberately set out to avoid payment, or to attempt to avoid payment having started from a station where a ticket could NOT have been bought constitutes an offence under Section 5 of the 1889 Act

As far as the NCoC and Byelaws are concerned it remains the responsibility of the passenger to have a means to pay and to obtain a ticket before travelling. This is clearly set out, and legally the passenger is required to establish the various rules, and regulations that affect them when undertaking a railway journey in line with the general "lack of knowledge (of the Law) is no defence".

If it could be shown that you deliberately set out without coins knowing the circumstances you outline then it is a clear S5 prosecution. If you are aware that the train has a guard selling tickets then it could well be argued that you should have made attempts to contact the guard, i.e. travel in last vehicle and either knock on door or approach him at an intermediate station Failing to do so would be regarded as a S5.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Snail. That article says before or on the train. Therefore you need to seek out the conductor on the train. Their guidelines say it is not acceptable to purchase at destination, due to the wording. This would stand against passenger in court as its clearly worded to state its your responsibility. Your responsibility therefore includes finding conductor and getting said conductor to sell you the ticket on board!

Depends really.
If the service is full and standing, and the conductor is in the back cab, I certainly would not say it is the person responsibility to fight their way through a packed train.
What if the guards machine is broken?
What if the guard is simply hiding (for lack of a better word) in the back cab?
What about places like the valley lines where nearly all the stations are unmanned? Surely a whole train full of people banging on the back cab door would not be reasonable?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would venture that there are actually very few journeys where there are NO means to pay at origin and destination stations, and the Guard does not come through the train en-route to check tickets.

You would be surprised.
Example, I got the train this morning to go to the dentists. There are no ticket buying facilities at the station I departed from, and none at the station I travelled to. As the journey is only a few minutes, the guard very rarely has time to cover the whole train and in this case today didn't come out of the back cab. Maybe it is because of where I live that I am very used to this kind of situation happening. Certainly in many parts of the country it is the norm for many journeys.

 

[Old Timer]

Depends what part of the country it is in. Certainly in many parts of the country it is not the exception and is the norm.

Yes but in rural ares where there is no office or machine then the Guard will check/issue tickets. I remember in BR days one of the checks we undertook was to see what level of revenue each Guard was collecting. A Guard NOT collecting revenue soon stands out in comparison to his colleagues.

You would be surprised.

A few examples might be interesting then ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes but in rural ares where there is no office or machine then the Guard will check/issue tickets.

And quite often the guard is either too busy to issue tickets to everyone who needs one, has a machine that doesn't work, is not selling tickets at all, or the service is simply too full for the guard to work his way through.

A few examples might be interesting then ?

I have given one just above. As I said, it may be down to the fact I am used to it. It happens all the time on my local line. If ATW put barriers and TVM's in they would increase their revenue by a huge amount. Guards cannot always issue tickets to everyone who needs them.

 

[Greenback]

You would be surprised.
Example, I got the train this morning to go to the dentists. There are no ticket buying facilities at the station I departed from, and none at the station I travelled to. As the journey is only a few minutes, the guard very rarely has time to cover the whole train and in this case today didn't come out of the back cab. Maybe it is because of where I live that I am very used to this kind of situation happening. Certainly in many parts of the country it is the norm for many journeys.

Agreed. One only has to look at how many stations now have no ticket office after lunchtime 9or even earlier). Many of these, at least outside of the urban conurbations don't have TVM's, and even where they are provided they could be out of service, or not able to sell the ticket you want, or not willing to accept your money.

 

[bb21]

... the sensible thing to do is to plan your journey such that you either buy in advance...

I think it's been established that in Northern land, most stations do not have TOD facilities and not all journeys can be planned at least 4-5 days in advance for the tickets to be posted. I personally have been invited to job interviews with 2 days' notice so the scenario described is definitely possible and relevant.

(c) the "you must pay at the destination no matter how long it takes"; allows TOCs to close booking offices; not provide guards on trains and have minimal ticketing issuing facilities; you're basically incentivising TOCs to provide less, not more, opportunities to pay!

This is a good point. There needs to be a limit as to how long a passenger is expected to queue before he is allowed to walk away. Is 5 minutes reasonable? How about 10 minutes? Does the passenger have to queue indefinitely?

The problem is that the TOCs are now run by accountants and managers who are incapable of recognising that there is a sizeable amount of fare evasion going on.

...

Rail passenger services are treated as distress purchases like washing machines and cookers by certain elements of the population - only paid for when there is no alternative. The sooner TOCs stop acting like supermarkets and start to address the proper manning and protection of revenue then we are going to get these continuing debates and issues. The thing is that I am convinced that there are some really large sums to be had simply by manning up stations properly. I proved this when I worked for BR, and I am certain that it still applies, indeed thinking about it, Flamingo mentioned the Port Talbot effect earlier !

I agree with you here.

 

[Old Timer]

And quite often the guard is either too busy to issue tickets to everyone who needs one, has a machine that doesn't work, is not selling tickets at all, or the service is simply too full for the guard to work his way through.

I have given one just above. As I said, it may be down to the fact I am used to it. It happens all the time on my local line. If ATW put barriers and TVM's in they would increase their revenue by a huge amount. Guards cannot always issue tickets to everyone who needs them.

All Prima Facie evidence of poor TOC management but then service level agreements about station manning and revenue protection should have been part of the franchise agreement. ATW are after all providing a subsidised service.

In the new culture of financial responsibility why not write to your MP or get the local reptiles at the news media interested.