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Passenger Obligation To Buy A Ticket

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northwichcat

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Secondly, in no other area of retail is "the queues were too long" accepted as an excuse for not paying. Not shops, not cinemas, not theatres. Why do so many posters seem to think that it should be acceptable on the railways?

When was the last time you went in to an unstaffed cinema and when you came out of the film there were some ticket inspectors and only one of which was able to sell tickets to the hundreds that hadn't been able to purchase a ticket prior to watching the film?

And if arriving into a station with facilities for buying a ticket, well then there is both a moral and legal obligation to purchase a ticket (see my first question). Saying "I didn't know where to buy it from" is just an excuse, nothing more.

Average Joe thinks that all tickets sold at a station ticket office will have a from destination of that station unless he is told otherwise.

Average Joe wants a ticket to Manchester Piccadilly not a ticket from Manchester Piccadilly. Alternatively, you might think Average Joe would be happy using the return and outward sections the wrong way around but what if he arrives at 09:32, he pays the Off Peak fare by doing that when he should have paid the Peak fare.
 
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Flamingo

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Average Joe knows he needs to buy a ticket at some stage, if not before receiving a service then after it.

Edited to add: If this was not the case, then why is the advice given (by the knowledgeable in this forum) in cases like the OP's to write in apologising, saying that it was all a horrible mistake, you will never do this again, and offering to pay costs?

Why is the letter not "I didn't need to buy a ticket as nobody asked me for one and the barriers were open, and the queues were too long" as a lot of posters seem to think that this is acceptable?
 
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WestCoast

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When was the last time you went in to an unstaffed cinema and when you came out of the film there were some ticket inspectors and only one of which was able to sell tickets to the hundreds that hadn't been able to purchase a ticket prior to watching the film?

I have to agree with the gist of your comment, comparisons with other industries (possibly with the exception of other modes of transport) are not really helpful.
 

radamfi

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If they are not paying for their journey, can you please explain why they should be encouraged to take the train? They are just contributing to overcrowding, and using up oxygen that someone else has paid for.

They wanted to pay at the ticket office on departure but it was closed, or there was no ticket office at all.

There was no TVM.

The guard didn't come through the train.

Should this passenger be deterred from train travel?

An easy way of fixing this is to allow remote ticket purchase from the destination TVM. But no, despite it being common practice in other European countries, we can't have that because we don't trust people not to buy a short ticket. Yet another way passengers are treated like criminals. I would be OK at Man Picc as I always carry my laptop so I could buy online on the Southern site and pick up at the Virgin machine there. But at Northern stations without TOD TVMs that wouldn't be possible.
 
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WestCoast

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Average Joe knows he needs to buy a ticket at some stage, if not before receiving a service then after it.

It would be nice if certain TOCs started wanting to take Average Joe's money in an appropriate way! No that doesn't include queuing in a line which has 100 fustrated people waiting for one sub-contracted inspector to issue a ticket from a single Avantix machine. *cough* Northern *cough*.

This is making it harder to spot the real fare evaders from the sheep that haven't been able to purchase a ticket IMHO.

Obviously, other TOCs have different attitudes, but the "no ticket office or TVM" is a convenient hiding place for real fare evaders and honest passengers are getting caught up in this (see other thread).
 
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northwichcat

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Average Joe knows he needs to buy a ticket at some stage, if not before receiving a service then after it.

Agreed. However, why does Average Joe have to buy one after completing his outward journey and not when making his return journey later on when the ticket selling facilities should be quieter?
 

Flamingo

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They wanted to pay at the ticket office on departure but it was closed, or there was no ticket office at all.

There was no TVM.

The guard didn't come through the train.

Should this passenger be deterred from train travel?

If they haven't paid for a ticket, then what is the advantage to either the TOC or society at large of allowing them free trips? All they are doing is causing wear and tear on the seats.

I occasionally get this, people with no ticket saying "Well I'm not using your company again" when told they have to buy a ticket. The don't seem to realise that if all they are doing is blagging a free trip then nobody cares if they don't use the company again, they can sod off and walk.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed. However, why does Average Joe have to buy one after completing his outward journey and not when making his return journey later on when the ticket selling facilities should be quieter?

1. How do you know they are making a return journey?
2. How do you know they will pay the appropriate fare for their outward journey as well?
3. The TOC I work for does single tickets that are approx 50% the price of a return ticket. So if they only buy a single for their return journey, they have had a trip for free

People who are honest enough to do this are honest enough to try to pay when they get to their destination, or attempt to pay before starting or during their journey. They are also few and far between.
 

northwichcat

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I occasionally get this, people with no ticket saying "Well I'm not using your company again" when told they have to buy a ticket. The don't seem to realise that if all they are doing is blagging a free trip then nobody cares if they don't use the company again, they can sod off and walk.

Is that really what they say when you tell them they have to buy a ticket, or is it what they say when you make them purchase a peak ticket at an off-peak time, or don't allow a railcard discount?
 

Old Timer

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They wanted to pay at the ticket office on departure but it was closed, or there was no ticket office at all.

There was no TVM.

The guard didn't come through the train.

Should this passenger be deterred from train travel?
What is wrong with paying on arrival ?

The Law states "with intent to avoid payment". This is interpreted as not using an opportunity to pay.

If a person joins at a station where there are NO means of buying a ticket or obtaining some sort of token, and travels on a train where the Guard is not "contactable", i.e. in the back cab, and there are NO means of paying at the destination, then the loss must rest with the TOC, and NO offence under Section 5 of the 1889 Act exists.

With regards to the NCoC and the Byelaws, the Law expects that the passenger makes appropriate arrangements to obtain a railway ticket. This can easily be done either by going to the station when the booking office is open, buying online and TOD, or buying online and having a ticket posted.

I would venture that there are actually very few journeys where there are NO means to pay at origin and destination stations, and the Guard does not come through the train en-route to check tickets.

By the way here is the wording used in the publication Police Law (12th Edition) with regards to railway ticket and fare issues.

TICKET OFFENCES p 803

Generally, all offences related to tickets will be dealt with by a railway employee or by British Transport Police officers, but there may be occasions upon which a police officer from a local force may be called to a dispute centred upon whether or not a person has committed a ticket offence. It is therefore helpful to have some understanding of the legal position of those who may be involved in such a dispute.

Travelling without a ticket

In the first instance, the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s 5(1) provides that every passenger on a railway, on request by an officer or agent or servant of the railway company, must either produce, and if requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place where his journey started, or give his name and address. In default of doing so, the passenger commits an offence. Put in everyday language, a railway passenger must at the request of a railway employee or British Transport Police officer, show, and if required surrender, his ticket. If he does not for any reason, he must pay the fare for his journey; if he is unable to do this he must give his true name and address so that the fare may be recovered from him by civil process, if necessary.

Travelling with intent to avoid paying fare

On occasions a constable may be called to a dispute centred upon an allegation that some person is travelling, or attempting to travel, without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid payment. One of two offences may be involved here. Both are provided by the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s 5(3).

Section 5(3) of the 1889 Act provides, first, that if any person travels, or attempts to travel, on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof, he commits an offence. The intention to avoid payment may be proved by showing that the passenger has ignored opportunities to pay his fare or has taken measures to avoid a ticket inspector. A person who leaves a train without paying his fare when there has been an opportunity to do so indicates such an intention. In addition, a person who travels on a ticket issued to another person, which is not transferable, clearly indicates an intention to avoid payment. It is not essential to prove knowledge on the part of the accused that the ticket was not transferable. A person, therefore, who produces a concessionary ticket issued to a young person or a senior citizen to which he is not entitled, clearly shows an intention to avoid payment of his true fare. In this respect the term ‘fare’ means the correct fare for the particular journey and the class of carriage by which the person travels. A person who travels in a first-class carriage with a standard-class ticket may be convicted of travelling without having previously paid his fare, if an intention to avoid payment of the correct fare is indicated by his refusal to pay the excess. It is usual in such circumstances for a ticket collector, if one is carried, to ask such a person to move if he alleges that he has made a mistake, but if the journey has almost been completed it is probable that the ticket collector will demand the excess fare and a refusal to pay indicates an intention to avoid payment.

Second, it is also an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s 5(3) knowingly and wilfully to proceed by train beyond the distance for which a fare has been paid. Opportunities exist on all trains to obtain an additional ticket for the excess journey and if opportunities to do so are ignored on the journey, this may be taken to indicate a knowing and wilful act. It would be different if the passenger fell asleep and was accidentally taken beyond the destination for which he has paid as he could not be said to have proceeded knowingly and wilfully beyond that point.

Penalty fares

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 made under the Railways Act 1993, make provision for the charging of penalty fares for failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station. The Regulations apply to all train operators.

By reg 3, subject to the provisions of the regulations, and to any rules made under them:
any person travelling by, present on or leaving a train must, if required by or on behalf of the train operator, produce a ticket or other authority authorising his travelling by or his being present on that train, as the case may be; and
any person present in or leaving a compulsory ticket area must, if so required, produce a ticket or other authority authorising him to be present in or leave that area.

Failure to produce a ticket or other authority when so required renders the person liable to be charged a penalty fare by the train operator or someone acting on its behalf. A person is not liable to pay a penalty fare in a case covered by (a) if, when he boarded the train (or a preceding train on his journey, which was operated by the same operator):
there were no ticket etc facilities available for the journey in question;
there was no notice in a prescribed form indicating the penalty fare scheme;
at the station where and when he commenced his journey, a notice was displayed indicating that it was permissible to travel without having such ticket or authority; or
a person in authority (or apparently in authority) at the originating station gave permission to travel without a ticket etc.

These exemptions do not exempt a person who had the opportunity to obtain a fare ticket while on the train (or one of them used on the journey).

There are similar exemptions from liability to pay a fixed penalty fare in respect of a person in a compulsory ticket area.

A person who fails to pay a penalty fare at once must provide his name and address on being required to do so by an authorised person.

In an action to recover a penalty fare, which is a civil action, a defendant may provide the claimant with a 'relevant statement' explaining his failure to produce a ticket etc and including particulars of his journey, which must be submitted within twenty-one days. Where this has been done it will be for the claimant to show that the facts of the case do not fall within the exemptions provided by the Act. In any other case it is for the defendant to show that the facts of the case fall within those exemptions.

If a person has been charged a penalty fare in respect of his failure to produce a ticket or other authority when required and he is then prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, s 5(3) (see above) or for breach of a railway byelaw in respect of the lack of a ticket etc, he ceases to be liable to pay the penalty fare. If he has already paid it, it must be refunded.
 

radamfi

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If they haven't paid for a ticket, then what is the advantage to either the TOC or society at large of allowing them free trips? All they are doing is causing wear and tear on the seats.

Why not just collect the fare before or during the trip instead of forcing him off the railways and into his car?
 

WestCoast

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I would venture that there are actually very few journeys where there are NO means to pay at origin and destination stations, and the Guard does not come through the train en-route to check tickets.

I can think of quite a few journeys I have done where this has been the case, mainly short journeys though between two unstaffed stations (very common in certain areas).
 

snail

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People who are honest enough to do this are honest enough to try to pay when they get to their destination, or attempt to pay before starting or during their journey. They are also few and far between.
Just one question. Have you ever tried buying a ticket from the Travel Centre at Manchester Piccadilly? If you have, how long were you in the queue?
 

northwichcat

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2. How do you know they will pay the appropriate fare for their outward journey as well?

You don't anymore you know they'll buy the right ticket if they go to the ticket office after ending their outward journey. Doing either they can get away with paying less then they should. Some operators need to provide better ticket buying ticket buying facilities to stop it happening in the first place.

3. The TOC I work for does single tickets that are approx 50% the price of a return ticket. So if they only buy a single for their return journey, they have had a trip for free

Well with Northern it costs around 10p more to buy an Off Peak Return over a Single and it's probably Northern that are most affected by this.
 

Flamingo

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Is that really what they say when you tell them they have to buy a ticket, or is it what they say when you make them purchase a peak ticket at an off-peak time, or don't allow a railcard discount?

It was said to me by a police officer two weeks ago when he was informed that his force was not one that was entitled to free travel on production of a warrant card.

It has also been said to me by people who I have been excessing up as they had purchased a ticket with a railcard discount and they were not in possession of a railcard, and all I was charging them was the difference in price between what they did pay and what they should have paid.
 

exile

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The TOC should provide an opportunity to buy a ticket either before boarding - immediately before, I mean, or on the train. If the conductor can't sell tickets he/she should make an announcement stating where in the destination station passengers can buy tickets, and alert the ticket office to expect 100-plus ticketless passengers.

I'm due at an interview at 10am. I join at an unstaffed station and there's no ticket machine (or it's not working). The guard can't sell me a ticket as his machine is bust. The train arrives 30 minutes late at 9.45 and I have a 10 minute taxi ride to the interview. There's no excess fares window and there's a 10 minute queue at the ticket office.

Advise me what to do, please. Obviously I could buy a return ticket when I get back to the station on my way home and that would play fair by the TOC - but how can I prove I intended that to the Revenue man who stops me at the station exit as I sprint towards the taxi?
 

radamfi

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Advise me what to do, please. Obviously I could buy a return ticket when I get back to the station on my way home and that would play fair by the TOC - but how can I prove I intended that to the Revenue man who stops me at the station exit as I sprint towards the taxi?

Don't use the train. TOCs like Northern don't want your custom.
 

Flamingo

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You don't anymore you know they'll buy the right ticket if they go to the ticket office after ending their outward journey. Doing either they can get away with paying less then they should. Some operators need to provide better ticket buying ticket buying facilities to stop it happening in the first place.

If I go off an unmanned platform at Paddington late at night, after the barriers are known to be open at Reading, do you know how many tickets I will sell? There are TVM's and an open booking office with minimal/no queues, and the most common excuse I will hear is "I don't need to buy tickets at this time of night". I'll sell a few dozen some nights.

There are a lot of people out there, who would never dream of shoplifting, or driving off without paying for petrol, who seem to think that they can travel for free on trains unless challenged. Add them to the scrotes who think the world owes them a living, and you are looking at a large number of people.
 

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Yes the Act DOES lead to the ability to detain. The Law considers the actions of a reasonable person. These are taken to be that a reasonable person will either produce a valid ticket for the journey being undertaken or pay the correct fare for the journey being undertaken. The Law allows for the person concerned to provide their name and address so as to allow the Railway to recover the fare involved.

It is considered unreeasonable for a person NOT to act in the above manner, or to attempt to abscond, hence the ability of the RPI to detain.

<snip>
Old Timer, I agree with what you are saying and believe it is correct. However my company, whilst recognising that the 1889 Act and other, more recent legislation, gives the power to detain strongly advises our revenue protection staff not to do it. I know that this is the policy of at least one Toc and it wouldn't surprise me if this was the policy of many others.

The wording from our training material is as follows:

In section 5(1) of the Regulations of Railways Act the offence of 3 fails allows an officer of the company the powers of arrest under section 5(2). 5(1) states what the fails are and 5(2) states that an officer of the company can arrest someone.

[Our] position on arrest is?
Don’t do it

Members of staff are told not to use the power of arrest unless absolutely necessary and only if the advice of the BTP has been sought.

What is [our] policy on arrest?
Don’t do it

As covered previously, [we do] not want staff arresting customers unless it is absolutely necessary, and then police assistance should be sought.

Preventing a person leaving is arrest. If the person does not believe he can leave that may be construed as arrest.

It is not necessary to prove that a person was physically held for a detention to have taken place. Requesting a person to remain or inviting them to an office to answer questions is detaining him/her if the person is not aware that he is free to go.

So, to an extent Dave is correct, as our training notes seem to infer that an arrest is potentially a legal minefield.
 

Old Timer

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Lots wrong with it, as explained by many people on this thread. Much better to collect the fare before or during the journey.
The post was in response to the fact that the booking office at the origin station was closed, and there were no other facilities. Something I suspect is now very much the exception ?

At the end of the day we are looking at a little planning and personal responsibility here. I know my local station will be busy in the morning so I will allow sufficient time to queue, and sometimes if it is a ticket with reservations, etc I will buy the day (or two) before, or go when the office is not going to be so busy.

It seems to be the case that the easier it is to buy a ticket these days (compared with say 30 years ago), the more excuses people will come up with for reasons that they cannot buy them. It all boils down to either laziness or opportunistic attempts to travel free. Hence the protestations about "entrapment".
 

Flamingo

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I'm due at an interview at 10am. I join at an unstaffed station and there's no ticket machine (or it's not working). The guard can't sell me a ticket as his machine is bust. The train arrives 30 minutes late at 9.45 and I have a 10 minute taxi ride to the interview. There's no excess fares window and there's a 10 minute queue at the ticket office.

Advise me what to do, please.

Don't be so bloody lazy and get out of bed earlier - don't blame everybody else for your lack of planning <D
 

WestCoast

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There are a lot of people out there, who would never dream of shoplifting, or driving off without paying for petrol, who seem to think that they can travel for free on trains unless challenged. Add them to the scrotes who think the world owes them a living, and you are looking at a large number of people.

I think there is a distinction to be made here between the people who WANT to buy a ticket and those who DON'T WANT to buy a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The post was in response to the fact that the booking office at the origin station was closed, and there were no other facilities. Something I suspect is now very much the exception ?

Absolutely not the exception in the Northern area. Unstaffed stations and closed booking offices are practically the norm. :(
 

richw

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I'm due at an interview at 10am. I join at an unstaffed station and there's no ticket machine (or it's not working). The guard can't sell me a ticket as his machine is bust. The train arrives 30 minutes late at 9.45 and I have a 10 minute taxi ride to the interview. There's no excess fares window and there's a 10 minute queue at the ticket office.

Advise me what to do, please. Obviously I could buy a return ticket when I get back to the station on my way home and that would play fair by the TOC - but how can I prove I intended that to the Revenue man who stops me at the station exit as I sprint towards the taxi?

This was my scenario that started this discussion, and it has yet to be answered, my question being reasonable chance to buy a ticket. we are not permitted to inconvenience them, yet they are able to inconvenience us by not providing a place to buy tickets before or during the service!
 

Flamingo

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This was my scenario that started this discussion, and it has yet to be answered, my question being reasonable chance to buy a ticket. we are not permitted to inconvenience them, yet they are able to inconvenience us by not providing a place to buy tickets before or during the service!

If it is that much of an inconvenience, then use a different method of travel. It's called market forces.
 

radamfi

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The post was in response to the fact that the booking office at the origin station was closed, and there were no other facilities. Something I suspect is now very much the exception ?

I mostly travel on Virgin, Southern and SWT so I usually don't have a problem buying tickets as I can buy any ticket any time online and pick up from the TVM.

But this doesn't apply in Northern land where you are often forced into buying the ticket at the destination and you have no other option.
 

exile

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So, rail employees are advising us not to travel by train. I wonder if it's part of a plot - the McNulty plan.
 

Old Timer

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...So, to an extent Dave is correct, as our training notes seem to infer that an arrest is potentially a legal minefield.
I disagree.

The Law is quite clear, arrests are made by security guards every day under legislation fare less encompassing than the 1889 Act. These arrests are judged to have been made properly and we do not see hoardes of Prosecutions despite what the media might infer. Were there to be a legal minefield then this would apply to an arrest by a Police Officer as well who arrests under PACE not the 1889 Act.

In BR days we quite happily arrested and detained using force at times. I have never ever known any one of us be Prosecuted or threatened with Prosecution. The last time I did it, I physically hauled the offender back over the barrier at New St whilst the BT Police rushed across to assist.

There really IS no legal minefield within the 1889 Act otherwise it would have been withdrawn and we would have had case after case after case.

I think what is happening, is that as this continuing softening in Society as a result of this horrendous "Libertarian" agenda having being pushed through where there are "rights" but NO responsibilities anymore, TOCs are just taking the line of least resistance. In all probability the advice not to arrest will be based upon H&S Risk Assessments rather than some bizarre minor technicality in Law.
 
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