15X Fleet future & withdrawal

[Jacob Porrett]

Regarding something else.
To best of my knowledge the shortlist of spare diesels in 2027 or 2028 is :

150 from Wales (but will be 40 years old)
153 (many currently stored)
156 (only handful, and not operational, I think they are at Ely)
158 (not clear how long Wales wants to keep them)
180 (10 with Grand Central, 4 stored, GC replacing theirs 2028)
196 (Chiltern have 6, never put into service, scheduled for EWR)
221 (6 sets ex Avanti still stored, 2 sets with Grand Central until 2028)
222 (Lumo getting some, Scotrail aiming for some, but unclear if they can still be outbid or have definitely secured them)
Loco hauled (eg 67 + mk3s ex Chiltern), but some nearer 45 years old

Not really anything else available if want extra diesel trains

Chiltern Mk3s are going in the bin mate. Only good place for them now.

 

[Russel]

Chiltern Mk3s are going in the bin mate. Only good place for them now.

Indeed, the only realistic option is TFW 158's, but that will still require quite a wait.

Is it just Cambrian 197's TFW are waiting on now to release the 158s?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Indeed, the only realistic option is TFW 158's, but that will still require quite a wait.

Is it just Cambrian 197's TFW are waiting on now to release the 158s?

Basically yes. 197003 still stored at Holyhead whilst some of the others a broken with cracks however, a fix is coming soon albeit a temporary fix.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Just out of interest, if they were to take back 153s, is the retraining course shorter (more of a refresher for lapsed knowledge than a full course), or a shortened training for 153 if already know how to operate 150s or 155s as they have similar driving techniques

I realise new staff and those who have never previously worked them would need full training.

Too long has passed for any historical knowledge of 153s to be taken into account.
155 drivers would probably need less time than any other 15x, not sure if a 153 is more similar to a 150 or a 156 from a driver's perspective.

 

[Snow1964]

TfW's lease on 'their' 24 class 158s has already been extended at least once. The initial fleet tables (published before Covid I think) had the Lease End Date for the 158s as 31/10/2022. According to an FOI response from TfW in 2025, the lease was not due to expire until 30/04/2027 (ie. still over a year away). However, if I recall correctly the class 175s went to Chrysalis Rail at Landore for quite a while beyond their removal from TfW service so perhaps the 'overhaul tender' for the 158s is actually going to be something similar to that (though I'd much rather the 158s remain in TfW service)?

There is much more likely to be an option for a return in withdrawal (scrapping) condition in a lease for units that are 34-36 years old (eg Wales 158) than there were for the 175s (when they were nearer midlife at around 22 years old).

Although leases are commercially confidential, I would be very surprised if they expect a train >35 years to be repaired and restored at lease end.

 

[Russel]

Basically yes. 197003 still stored at Holyhead whilst some of the others a broken with cracks however, a fix is coming soon albeit a temporary fix.

I didn't know about the cracking issue, but the, they are a CAF product, so I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

[Energy]

Regarding something else.
To best of my knowledge the shortlist of spare diesels in 2027 or 2028 is :

150 from Wales (but will be 40 years old)
153 (many currently stored)
156 (only handful, and not operational, I think they are at Ely)
158 (not clear how long Wales wants to keep them)
180 (10 with Grand Central, 4 stored, GC replacing theirs 2028)
196 (Chiltern have 6, never put into service, scheduled for EWR)
221 (6 sets ex Avanti still stored, 2 sets with Grand Central until 2028)
222 (Lumo getting some, Scotrail aiming for some, but unclear if they can still be outbid or have definitely secured them)
Loco hauled (eg 67 + mk3s ex Chiltern), but some nearer 45 years old

Not really anything else available if want extra diesel trains

There's the ex-GWR 769s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There's the ex-GWR 769s.

Only if you can fix the reliability issues they've been struggling with for 5 years now.
Always one more fix and it never works.

 

[Mikey C]

Only if you can fix the reliability issues they've been struggling with for 5 years now.
Always one more fix and it never works.

Northern got theirs working though, enough for them to be part of their current fleet.

 

[Chester1]

There is much more likely to be an option for a return in withdrawal (scrapping) condition in a lease for units that are 34-36 years old (eg Wales 158) than there were for the 175s (when they were nearer midlife at around 22 years old).

Although leases are commercially confidential, I would be very surprised if they expect a train >35 years to be repaired and restored at lease end.

I would bet Northern would be quite happy with 24 x 158s in 2029 (to scrap sprinters in a worse shape). We have a DMU shortage until the network is decarbonised and there should be work for them until they are completely life expired.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If trains are deteriorating to the point where it is uneconomic to repair them, and alternatives are not definite, but reliant on someone else's trains that were scheduled for scrap being pressed into further service as a stopgap. Have to question what is happening.

This is possibly where longer term fleet planning has fallen over (or any plan has not been robust enough to convince DfT / Treasury). Of course there are plenty of ready to run spare electric units but hasn't been enough additional electrification to use them and free up diesel units.

Although perhaps Northern could take a few more EMUs as a stopgap with some limited extra electrification and OHLE improvement projects in the Newcastle area (e.g around 14.5 miles Benton to Ashington, more traction current available on the ECML etc.)

Might take 5-6 years for any new orders to new design to be in service, but would be quicker, perhaps just 2-3 years for a follow on batch of trains to existing design in use by another operator.

Not sure where they go from here, few 150s, 153s, or some 125mph express units is not good selection if need extra diesel trains short term.

When is TPRU planned to be fully electrified by? Will TPE have a surplus of 185s by then?

 

[skyhigh]

My understanding was that a driver could drive a train made up of multiple types of Sprinter vehicle, whilst only having to sign the ones that he uses to drive the train.

That may easily be incorrect however!

It is incorrect unfortunately. You would need to know how to deal with a potential fault on the middle unit, even if you never drove from it.

As to the problem of moving the 153s around a depot if noone signs them, can anyone say how are cabless Sprinter vehicles are moved around? Is there some sort of plug in control board or similar?

With a shunter, normally a class 08.

 

[MichaelTrains]

When are the 155s going? I saw something on the television yesterday that suggested they could be going at the end of 2026?

 

[david l]

Northern got theirs working though, enough for them to be part of their current fleet.

Some work, many don't work often enough. The availability and/or reliability is appalling on a daily basis. Roll on the TfW 158's, or whatever Northern can get hold of, otherwise its a revamp of the Southport services to make sure that the £100m+ spent on Lostock Junc-Wigan Station Junc electrification is actually used.

 

[3RDGEN]

When are the 155s going? I saw something on the television yesterday that suggested they could be going at the end of 2026?

If the Northern Phase 1 new build plan goes ahead to the current timescales it would be early 2030's along with the 150/156 fleets, it's reported the 155's are currently going to Long Marston for corrosion repairs/life extension works but I am not aware if that's correct. If Northern took the TfW 158's (big if) then it's possible the 155's could go earlier to remove one of the micro fleets earlier, but that's just speculation.

 

[MichaelTrains]

If the Northern Phase 1 new build plan goes ahead to the current timescales it would be early 2030's along with the 150/156 fleets, it's reported the 155's are currently going to Long Marston for corrosion repairs/life extension works but I am not aware if that's correct. If Northern took the TfW 158's (big if) then it's possible the 155's could go earlier to remove one of the micro fleets earlier, but that's just speculation.

Thank you for the update. If they do go early then I’ll try get a few trips out on them.

They still visit Bradford once a week on the Hull to Halifax services.

I miss the Metro red and cream ones.

 

[60074]

Any truth in the rumour of x4 scotrail 156s off to northern?

 

[Iskra]

Any truth in the rumour of x4 scotrail 156s off to northern?

Alex Hynes has confirmed additional carriages for the Northumberland Line on his X account. It is not stated where they are coming from. I have asked the question, but I’m not convinced it will be answered.

Regardless, it is good news.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought it can only be some 156s from somewhere. The ex EMR ones were my first thought but thought they were a heap of junk somewhere by now.

 

[Trainman40083]

I thought it can only be some 156s from somewhere. The ex EMR ones were my first thought but thought they were a heap of junk somewhere by now.

The EMR 156s mainly went to Northern. The rest went to Ely and will end up scrap. I presume the ScotRail 156s are realised by recent electrification in the Glasgow area

 

[D365]

The ex EMR ones were my first thought but thought they were a heap of junk somewhere by now.

The EMR 156s mainly went to Northern. The rest went to Ely and will end up scrap.

The four Angel owned 156s and one Porterbrook owned 156 that were not taken on by Northern, following their short spell with EMR, are suffering from severe bodyshell corrosion.

However it does appear that, according to Wikipedia, the Porterbrook unit 407/907 has been moved from Long Marston to Heaton?

 

[Anvil1984]

The four Angel owned 156s and one Porterbrook owned 156 that were not taken on by Northern, following their short spell with EMR, are suffering from severe bodyshell corrosion.

However it does appear that, according to Wikipedia, the Porterbrook unit 407/907 has been moved from Long Marston to Heaton?

407 / 907 is with Heaton for parts only, it’s in a very sorry state

 

[Iskra]

When do the TRU wires go live between Huddersfield and Leeds? That could release a handful of units?

Isn’t there some expectation of units from TfW eventually, does anyone know the timescale on those?

 

[D365]

407 / 907 is with Heaton for parts only, it’s in a very sorry state

That’s what I had expected. Thanks for confirming.

When do the TRU wires go live between Huddersfield and Leeds? That could release a handful of units?

I was under the impression that TransPennine operates the diesel stopping services, not Northern. So the Class 185s wouldn’t directly benefit Northern unless they are sub-leased.

 

[Trainman40083]

That’s what I had expected. Thanks for confirming.

I was under the impression that TransPennine operates the diesel stopping services, not Northern. So the Class 185s wouldn’t directly benefit Northern unless they are sub-leased.

One day they will finish the electrification between York and Leeds. That should see emus used there. If they have spare ones

 

[3RDGEN]

Any truth in the rumour of x4 scotrail 156s off to northern?

ScotRail recently extended the lease on the 156's but reduced the fleet size by four so it would make sense for Northern to take them to ease their issues.

When do the TRU wires go live between Huddersfield and Leeds? That could release a handful of units?

Isn’t there some expectation of units from TfW eventually, does anyone know the timescale on those?

Huddersfield - Leeds - York electrification is due completion in early 2030, if Northern get the new build EMU's in time that would release a pair of 195's from Leeds - York and a pair of 150's from the Leeds - Huddersfield stopping services.

It's all gone quiet on TfW releasing the 158's which you would assume will go to a DfT operator, if/when they are released.

 

[Iskra]

ScotRail recently extended the lease on the 156's but reduced the fleet size by four so it would make sense for Northern to take them to ease their issues.

Huddersfield - Leeds - York electrification is due completion in early 2030, if Northern get the new build EMU's in time that would release a pair of 195's from Leeds - York and a pair of 150's from the Leeds - Huddersfield stopping services.

It's all gone quiet on TfW releasing the 158's which you would assume will go to a DfT operator, if/when they are released.

Thanks!

 

[60074]

ScotRail recently extended the lease on the 156's but reduced the fleet size by four so it would make sense for Northern to take them to ease their issues.

Huddersfield - Leeds - York electrification is due completion in early 2030, if Northern get the new build EMU's in time that would release a pair of 195's from Leeds - York and a pair of 150's from the Leeds - Huddersfield stopping services.

It's all gone quiet on TfW releasing the 158's which you would assume will go to a DfT operator, if/when they are released.

Any ideas on the numbers of the 4 156s please?

 

[3RDGEN]

Any ideas on the numbers of the 4 156s please?

The lease extension, "https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN547456", just states ScotRail are extending the lease for 76 156 vehicles, 38 units, I believe they currently have 42 units so it matches up. The ScotRail lease extension is from March 2027 but they may have agreed with the ROSCO to release/sub lease the units early to Northern, they are presumably units released by the East Kilbride electrification.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield - Leeds - York electrification is due completion in early 2030, if Northern get the new build EMU's in time that would release a pair of 195's from Leeds - York and a pair of 150's from the Leeds - Huddersfield stopping services.

Just for clarity, at the present time there are no Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers operating. After Mirfield what would have been the Huddersfield stopper is diverted to Bradford via Halifax because Huddersfield currently only has two platforms available for use plus the Sheffield bay.
AIUI when the Huddersfield remodelling is complete, the Leeds stopper will return as there'll be space to turn it back. When the wires go up, it'll be an EMU of some sort.