15X Fleet future & withdrawal

[Bletchleyite]

Back in April on Green Signals - Inside Northern Trains, Matt Rice COO suggests that there will be no increase in the 15x fleet as they gear up to introduce new trains to replace them in the next 5 years. Current fleet to be refurbished/maintained in the interim.

That's going to be very difficult to maintain without slashing services and train lengths as the 150s get increasingly unreliable. I believe they've already cut the number of diagrams, and down on the Marston Vale they still struggle sometimes to get even one out of the three out, let alone all of them.

It's interesting that they're now getting on for a very similar age to the 101s in their last days, yet while the 101s were a niche thing operating only on specific parts of what was First North Western they are still the mainstay of most of the Northern network.

 

[Earle Grey]

That's going to be very difficult to maintain without slashing services and train lengths as the 150s get increasingly unreliable. I believe they've already cut the number of diagrams, and down on the Marston Vale they still struggle sometimes to get even one out of the three out, let alone all of them.

It's interesting that they're now getting on for a very similar age to the 101s in their last days, yet while the 101s were a niche thing operating only on specific parts of what was First North Western they are still the mainstay of most of the Northern network.

True, but the units they get back from works should be better than before and those which go next? Likewise using units off lease from someone else to cover the gap puts you back in the same/worse situation with units which will be short on miles/works attention, so why invest in expanding a fleet of ageing units for a short period?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

True, but the units they get back from works should be better than before and those which go next? Likewise using units off lease from someone else to cover the gap puts you back in the same/worse situation with units which will be short on miles/works attention, so why invest in expanding a fleet of ageing units for a short period?

As the units get closer to retirement, there's an argument for not working them quite as hard just to make sure they actually do survive until their replacements arrive...
But that is not a zero-sum game, if it was it'd be an easy decision. A larger fleet means more spending on leasing costs (unless a favourable deal can be negotiated), more storage space required, higher staffing levels (if diagrams are less intensive, more units and therefore more crews needed to provide the same level of service).

 

[diligentdave]

Given that pretty much every unit will likely end up at Unimetals within the next few years, I'm a bit uncertain whether to start a speculative thread on the topic. We've had one unit preserved, but will we get anymore is a question that'll remain unanswered until it likely happens!

I've been told that no more 150's are going for scrap at this point in time as there is interested parties.

 

[tfw756rider]

I've been told that no more 150's are going for scrap at this point in time as there is interested parties.

Oh interesting, I wonder who they are!

 

[MatthewE707]

Are there any current trains which would theoretically be permitted to replace the 150s on Cornwall branches? I know no other trains are cleared on some of them, but could they be. Do 196/0s have SDO, for example?

 

[Snow1964]

True, but the units they get back from works should be better than before and those which go next? Likewise using units off lease from someone else to cover the gap puts you back in the same/worse situation with units which will be short on miles/works attention, so why invest in expanding a fleet of ageing units for a short period?

There are two ways extra units can be used.

1) In service, meaning more resting and maintenance time, and those being used not wearing out so fast
2) For additional spare parts, and in some cases to allow parts to be swapped allowing worn/faulty one to be repaired properly in slow time without keeping unit out of service.

Of course could have a combination where best ones used, and others used for pool of spares.

As for lease costs, that might be a red herring, as all you really need to do is outbid what the scrap merchant will pay and buy them. Thats assuming no one else wants to lease them.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I've been told that no more 150's are going for scrap at this point in time as there is interested parties.

Heritage railways?

 

[tfw756rider]

Heritage railways?

Oh yeah, "doing a Watercress"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2025 ==

The original poster of the thread:

Northern Class 769s

Have Northern finally given up on the 769s? Reason for asking is that there is speculation on another thread that no more TFW 150s are to be scrapped, due to interest from another party.

www.railforums.co.uk

Is wondering if Northern could be taking the 150s to replace the 769s, which would allow them to "give up on" the latter.

 

[MattRat]

The original poster of the thread:

Northern Class 769s

Have Northern finally given up on the 769s? Reason for asking is that there is speculation on another thread that no more TFW 150s are to be scrapped, due to interest from another party.

www.railforums.co.uk

Is wondering if Northern could be taking the 150s to replace the 769s, which would allow them to "give up on" the latter.

Is there enough 150s to run double 2 car sets though? To be a like for like replacement of 769s since they are 4 cars?

I'd hope it isn't a case of 4 car services turning into 2 car services

 

[animationmilo]

Is there enough 150s to run double 2 car sets though? To be a like for like replacement of 769s since they are 4 cars?

I'd hope it isn't a case of 4 car services turning into 2 car services

Tfw have 21 x 150 left

 

[Russel]

Oh interesting, I wonder who they are!

Heinz or Gillette?

 

[bluenoxid]

The most obvious operators are the three other users of class 150s. GWR could use them as a quicker boost to capacity than the class 175 programme. Northern could use them to manage out the class 155 or class 769 fleets. London North Western could use them to reduce reliance on Northern/boost the spare trains available

 

[Caaardiff]

The 150's won't be going anywhere until the 398's are bedded in. Depot wise, the setup is already there and there's no overlap with the 398's being at Taffs Well Depot. The reliability of the Active Travel 153's has been struggling lately, so unless 197's are cleared on the Heart of Wales line soon, I wouldn't be surprised for some 150's to be kept until there's solid reliability of the 153's.

By that time the 175's you'd hope would be bedded in, so the most likely candidate would be Northern. They need the capacity even if they do keep the 769's.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Oh yeah, "doing a Watercress"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2025 ==

The original poster of the thread:

Northern Class 769s

Have Northern finally given up on the 769s? Reason for asking is that there is speculation on another thread that no more TFW 150s are to be scrapped, due to interest from another party.

www.railforums.co.uk

Is wondering if Northern could be taking the 150s to replace the 769s, which would allow them to "give up on" the latter.

Yeah that's it. Would be nice to see some more preserved.

 

[td97]

Northern are supposedly due cascaded diesel rolling stock at the start of 2027 as the earliest opportunity.
www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/25734755.bromley-cross-councillors-calls-better-train-service/

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) monitors Northern’s performance, and said timetables this month will see 44 services in Greater Manchester reduced to two cars.

TfGM is working with the Government to identify additional diesel units potentially from early 2027, and possibly new rolling stock for Northern around 2030.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern are supposedly due cascaded diesel rolling stock at the start of 2027 as the earliest opportunity.
www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/25734755.bromley-cross-councillors-calls-better-train-service/

Interesting.
TfW recently tendered to extend their 158 maintenance to April 2029, so either it'll be the first castoffs from them, or something else...?

 

[Snow1964]

Interesting.
TfW recently tendered to extend their 158 maintenance to April 2029, so either it'll be the first castoffs from them, or something else...?

Regarding something else.
To best of my knowledge the shortlist of spare diesels in 2027 or 2028 is :

150 from Wales (but will be 40 years old)
153 (many currently stored)
156 (only handful, and not operational, I think they are at Ely)
158 (not clear how long Wales wants to keep them)
180 (10 with Grand Central, 4 stored, GC replacing theirs 2028)
196 (Chiltern have 6, never put into service, scheduled for EWR)
221 (6 sets ex Avanti still stored, 2 sets with Grand Central until 2028)
222 (Lumo getting some, Scotrail aiming for some, but unclear if they can still be outbid or have definitely secured them)
Loco hauled (eg 67 + mk3s ex Chiltern), but some nearer 45 years old

Not really anything else available if want extra diesel trains

 

[xotGD]

Not really anything else available if want extra diesel trains

Mark 3 sets from Chiltern?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

156 (only handful, and not operational, I think they are at Ely)

Incredibly corroded, very likely never to see service again.

196 (Chiltern have 6, never put into service)

They're going on EWR.

180 (10 with Grand Central, 4 stored, GC replacing theirs 2028)
221 (6 sets ex Avanti still stored, 2 sets with Grand Central until 2028)
222 (Lumo getting some, Scotrail aiming for some, but unclear if they can still be outbid)

They won't have close to any traction knowledge on them (unlike 153s and 196s), and 125mph units aren't very useful for metro services

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They won't have close to any traction knowledge on them (unlike 153s and 196s), and 125mph units aren't very useful for metro services

Any traction knowledge for 153s at Northern will have long since expired, and that's making the rather generous assumption that the stored ones will be in anything like a fit state. On the off chance that they are, AIUI it's a relatively simple conversion course for crews already passed on other 15x though.
Conversion from 195 to 196 (in the highly unlikely event that the EWR units are temporarily loaned) is a bigger job apparently.

The most obvious operators are the three other users of class 150s. GWR could use them as a quicker boost to capacity than the class 175 programme. Northern could use them to manage out the class 155 or class 769 fleets. London North Western could use them to reduce reliance on Northern/boost the spare trains available

Is there any desire or need to "manage out" the 155s? They're a bit of a micro-fleet but as they're kept on just a handful of routes is that much of a problem? I wouldn't have thought that would be a priority unless they're constantly breaking down- and if that's the case I'd expect there'd be a thread on here about it.

 

[HSTEd]

Any traction knowledge for 153s at Northern will have long since expired, and that's making the rather generous assumption that the stored ones will be in anything like a fit state. On the off chance that they are, AIUI it's a relatively simple conversion course for crews already passed on other 15x though.

If any 15x are kept in service, I'd think the easiest way to use 153s would be to put them in the middle of two car sets to make three car sets. That avoids any cab conversion courses at all, I think.

 

[AlastairFraser]

150 from Wales (but will be 40 years old)

I wonder how many 150s in the Northern fleet are in a bad condition?
Perhaps even half of these could be used to withdraw the worst ones.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If any 15x are kept in service, I'd think the easiest way to use 153s would be to put them in the middle of two car sets to make three car sets. That avoids any cab conversions at all, I think.

The "conversion" I was referring to is training, not a modification to the cabs or units themselves: whereby crews that already sign other 15x would be trained on the differences between 153s and other Sprinters. Apologies for the use of an ambiguous term. I'm not crew so I may be using the wrong terminology.
It isn't just the cabs that are covered in type training though- it's things involving the whole unit such as fault finding, locations of fire suppression and other safety equipment, and numerous other things. Sandwiching a 153 in the middle of a 155 or 156 would still require training to cover those things. You'd probably also need to train depot drivers on the 153s so that the sets could be shuffled or reformed if required.

 

[HSTEd]

The "conversion" I was referring to is training, not a modification to the cabs or units themselves: whereby crews that already sign other 15x would be trained on the differences between 153s and other Sprinters. Apologies for the use of an ambiguous term. I'm not crew so I may be using the wrong terminology.

I meant a "cab conversion course" - I apologise for also using inprecise/improper terminology!

It isn't just the cabs that are covered in type training though- it's things involving the whole unit such as fault finding, locations of fire suppression and other safety equipment, and numerous other things. Sandwiching a 153 in the middle of a 155 or 156 would still require training to cover those things. You'd probably also need to train depot drivers on the 153s so that the sets could be shuffled or reformed if required.

My understanding was that a driver could drive a train made up of multiple types of Sprinter vehicle, whilst only having to sign the ones that he uses to drive the train.

That may easily be incorrect however!
As to the problem of moving the 153s around a depot if noone signs them, can anyone say how are cabless Sprinter vehicles are moved around? Is there some sort of plug in control board or similar?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I meant a "cab conversion course" - I apologise for also using inprecise/improper terminology!


My understanding was that a driver could drive a train made up of multiple types of Sprinter vehicle, whilst only having to sign the ones that he uses to drive the train.

That may easily be incorrect however!
As to the problem of moving the 153s around a depot if noone signs them, how are cabless Sprinter vehicles moved around? Is there some sort of plug in control board or similar?

No worries on the terminology- it's easily done.

My understanding is that drivers don't necessarily need to be passed to drive all types in a consist, if the type they aren't passed on is "sandwiched"... but guards need to sign all types in a consist. Again, I could also be very wrong here!

As for moving vehicles in a depot, I'd never considered how cabless vehicles are shunted, but presumably a shunting locomotive is used if it can't be moved using a cabbed car. I believe Neville Hill still has an 08 on site, not sure about Northern's other depots though- smaller sites such as Hull Botanic Gardens and the new facilities at Shipley and Huddersfield almost certainly won't have one. My concern with the 153 thing was more that some smaller depots might only be set up for 2-car units, so introducing 3-car units might present a headache during exams and other maintenance tasks. On that front using 153s would probably make life easier so long as depot staff are trained up on them.

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder how many 150s in the Northern fleet are in a bad condition?
Perhaps even half of these could be used to withdraw the worst ones.

If trains are deteriorating to the point where it is uneconomic to repair them, and alternatives are not definite, but reliant on someone else's trains that were scheduled for scrap being pressed into further service as a stopgap. Have to question what is happening.

This is possibly where longer term fleet planning has fallen over (or any plan has not been robust enough to convince DfT / Treasury). Of course there are plenty of ready to run spare electric units but hasn't been enough additional electrification to use them and free up diesel units.

Might take 5-6 years for any new orders to new design to be in service, but would be quicker, perhaps just 2-3 years for a follow on batch of trains to existing design in use by another operator.

Not sure where they go from here, few 150s, 153s, or some 125mph express units is not good selection if need extra diesel trains short term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2026 ==

There Is a working from Long Marston to Neville Hill this week, appears to be pathed as a 15x (but might be something else). Are they now taking units from store

Realtime Trains | 5Q18 1044 Long Marston to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 10/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5Q18 1044 departure from Long Marston to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 10/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[3RDGEN]

There Is a working from Long Marston to Neville Hill this week, appears to be pathed as a 15x (but might be something else). Are they now taking units from store

From the Northern Refurbishment thread I believe that would be a 155 return run, it looks like they are have some corrosion repairs done as per the 150/156 units.

Re extra DMU's for Northern it's either TfW 150's, requiring significant corrosion repairs, TfW 158's if they are ever released or ScotRail 156's now East Kilbride is electrified but I haven't seen anything confirming they are releasing any units and it would only be a few anyway. Plenty of 769's sat spare but I suspect Northern would run a mile from that idea.

 

[Russel]

In the very unlikely event that Northern do take back 153s, there should be questions asked about why they were withdrawn in the first place, given the costs involved in releasing and retraining staff...

 

[Snow1964]

In the very unlikely event that Northern do take back 153s, there should be questions asked about why they were withdrawn in the first place, given the costs involved in releasing and retraining staff...

Just out of interest, if they were to take back 153s, is the retraining course shorter (more of a refresher for lapsed knowledge than a full course), or a shortened training for 153 if already know how to operate 150s or 155s as they have similar driving techniques

I realise new staff and those who have never previously worked them would need full training.