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How could the effects of the Glasgow Central closure be mitigated?

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Elecman

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haven't we seen that pic before? I'm sure it was shown to be either a spoof or a mistaken use of devices intended for protecting hoses from road traffic.
It's very likely that a flanged wheelset running over it would fail to meet the grooved rail afterwards...
Yes seen that picture a few times on various sites
 

Krokodil

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haven't we seen that pic before? I'm sure it was shown to be either a spoof or a mistaken use of devices intended for protecting hoses from road traffic.
It's very likely that a flanged wheelset running over it would fail to meet the grooved rail afterwards...
As far as I can recall, the line was closed and the devices had been placed as a joke by the firefighters between finishing extinguishing the fire and packing up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A patent does exist for a device which would allow streetcars to pass over hoses. I very much doubt that it would take the weight of trains though.
 

D1511

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As far as I can recall, the line was closed and the devices had been placed as a joke by the firefighters between finishing extinguishing the fire and packing up.
It looked like the flanges would either slice clean through it, or it would risk derailing the train if it was much harder, so it didn't seem like a real thing to me.....
 

Dave W

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It looked like the flanges would either slice clean through it, or it would risk derailing the train if it was much harder, so it didn't seem like a real thing to me.....
A classic yarn spun by several railwaymen in their various books. The hapless fire brigade laying chocks and or ramps to go over their hoses on a level crossing much to the amusement of writer and by extension reader.
 

Harpo

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A classic yarn spun by several railwaymen in their various books. The hapless fire brigade laying chocks and or ramps to go over their hoses on a level crossing much to the amusement of writer and by extension reader.
The modern flip side is police asking a MOM if the power is off and getting the answer, ‘No but unless any of you is 13 feet tall you’ll be OK’.
 

stuartl

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When large, old buildings like this catch fire do the fire service have enough capacity in terms of both equipment and water availability to be able to extinguish the fire before it gets out of control ? If not, do they concentrate on saving the adjoing buildings?
 

b0b

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When large, old buildings like this catch fire do the fire service have enough capacity in terms of both equipment and water availability to be able to extinguish the fire before it gets out of control ? If not, do they concentrate on saving the adjoing buildings?
Not an expert but when my home was at risk of burning down, the fire services main goal was to prevent the fire spreading to adjoining homes. They basically said if my home catches fire, theres nothing they can really do.

So if my experience is any indication, the fire service trains to prevent fire spreading and then does its best to put the fire out when they can.
 

gravitystorm

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Oy, what a sorry mess this is. The absolute last thing Glasgow needed was a kick to the ecomonical groin of this size and scale.
And this is what I don't understand. With the station closed, the railway must be losing a large amount of fares. Anyone got an estimate?

Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.

You could knock temporary exits through walls, set up contraflows through the vehicle ramp, employ 200+ people for crowd control, charter a Chinook with a big claw to lift away the remains of the building, <insert daft idea here>. But I'm amazed that, with the scale of daily losses, there won't even be a single train run into the station tomorrow. Where's the urgency? Why aren't they paying someone 300k to install a crash deck above the concourse this afternoon, just in case, if that could bring forward reopening by a few hours? Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?

I'm sure there's dozens of people from the railway who are working hard on this, but the scale of the response doesn't seem to match the scale of the disruption.
 

hexagon789

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And this is what I don't understand. With the station closed, the railway must be losing a large amount of fares. Anyone got an estimate?

Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.

You could knock temporary exits through walls, set up contraflows through the vehicle ramp, employ 200+ people for crowd control, charter a Chinook with a big claw to lift away the remains of the building, <insert daft idea here>. But I'm amazed that, with the scale of daily losses, there won't even be a single train run into the station tomorrow. Where's the urgency? Why aren't they paying someone 300k to install a crash deck above the concourse this afternoon, just in case, if that could bring forward reopening by a few hours? Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?

I'm sure there's dozens of people from the railway who are working hard on this, but the scale of the response doesn't seem to match the scale of the disruption.
Because Network Rail cannot do anything until Glasgow City Council has inspected the site of the collapsed building and the remains and decided the appropriate action up to and including full demolition.

And the City Council can't do that until the Fire Brigade hand over the site, which hasn't happened yet.

Even once that's done the station won't re-open until:

- the roof is throughly inspected, if safe then...
- OLE & signalling equipment is inspected and if necessary repaired. If working then...
- public address system needs checked before station can legally open to passengers

Then there's general clean-up and if necessary, segregating areas/doorways of the station to permit safe access.
 

Russel

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And this is what I don't understand. With the station closed, the railway must be losing a large amount of fares. Anyone got an estimate?

Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.

You could knock temporary exits through walls, set up contraflows through the vehicle ramp, employ 200+ people for crowd control, charter a Chinook with a big claw to lift away the remains of the building, <insert daft idea here>. But I'm amazed that, with the scale of daily losses, there won't even be a single train run into the station tomorrow. Where's the urgency? Why aren't they paying someone 300k to install a crash deck above the concourse this afternoon, just in case, if that could bring forward reopening by a few hours? Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?

I'm sure there's dozens of people from the railway who are working hard on this, but the scale of the response doesn't seem to match the scale of the disruption.

Let's be real, bringing the reopening forward by a few hours is neither here nor there when looking at the bigger picture.

Besides, nothing can be done until the fire is confirmed as out anyway.
 

hexagon789

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Let's be real, bringing the reopening forward by a few hours is neither here nor there when looking at the bigger picture.

Besides, nothing can be done until the fire is confirmed as out anyway.
And that is the key first stage, before anything else can be done at all.
 

35B

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And this is what I don't understand. With the station closed, the railway must be losing a large amount of fares. Anyone got an estimate?

Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.

You could knock temporary exits through walls, set up contraflows through the vehicle ramp, employ 200+ people for crowd control, charter a Chinook with a big claw to lift away the remains of the building, <insert daft idea here>. But I'm amazed that, with the scale of daily losses, there won't even be a single train run into the station tomorrow. Where's the urgency? Why aren't they paying someone 300k to install a crash deck above the concourse this afternoon, just in case, if that could bring forward reopening by a few hours? Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?

I'm sure there's dozens of people from the railway who are working hard on this, but the scale of the response doesn't seem to match the scale of the disruption.
These are listed buildings, so the option of just doing something isn't necessarily viable. Similarly, the station hasn't yet been handed back by the fire brigade - so how are builders supposed to start on that crash deck? Let alone that work like that needs a) to built using scaffolding, which itself takes time to erect, and b) be designed.

As a passenger, I'm not going to be comfortable going through a station that is either a danger zone or a construction site, let alone both - which means that my fares wouldn't be forthcoming anyway.
 

D1537

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Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.
I doubt if the hit to the wider economy is that much. People will not stop going to work, they'll find another way of doing it (I suppose a few might work from home). Most long-distance travellers will go via Edinburgh or Motherwell, or they'll fly, or they'll go on the coach, or they'll drive. Obviously the hit to the railway itself is more of an issue.
 

zwk500

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And this is what I don't understand. With the station closed, the railway must be losing a large amount of fares. Anyone got an estimate?

Let's make up some numbers and say it's £250k+ per day, and say £2+ million per day impact to the wider economy. So you could spend up to £250k per day (every day!) on mitigation measures to get the services up and running and still break even compared to waiting another day or three for everything to be ship-shape.

You could knock temporary exits through walls, set up contraflows through the vehicle ramp, employ 200+ people for crowd control, charter a Chinook with a big claw to lift away the remains of the building, <insert daft idea here>. But I'm amazed that, with the scale of daily losses, there won't even be a single train run into the station tomorrow. Where's the urgency? Why aren't they paying someone 300k to install a crash deck above the concourse this afternoon, just in case, if that could bring forward reopening by a few hours? Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?

I'm sure there's dozens of people from the railway who are working hard on this, but the scale of the response doesn't seem to match the scale of the disruption.
Go too soon, and bring the station roof down on top of people, and you'll lose a hell of a lot more money.

In order to have anybody in the station, even workmen installing a crash deck (which would need to be designed first, by the way), requires approval from the Fire service that it's safe for them to be there. Waiting for the SFRS to declare the scene safe, then the structural engineers to declare the building safe, is the only course of action that can reasonably be taken.
 

Russel

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I doubt if the hit to the wider economy is that much. People will not stop going to work, they'll find another way of doing it (I suppose a few might work from home). Most long-distance travellers will go via Edinburgh or Motherwell, or they'll fly, or they'll go on the coach, or they'll drive. Obviously the hit to the railway itself is more of an issue.

Indeed, as we saw a couple of years ago with the national strikes, people will complain but realistically, it's a few days of pain and people find workarounds the everything returns to normality.
 

norbitonflyer

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In this case they had to pump water from the Clyde. In a place without a massive river nearby, definitely not.

Very interesting and eye-opening article about the shop where it started and fire safety enforcement generally.

Bet they weren't insured either, so the neighbouring businesses will ahve to rely on their own insurance
 

norbitonflyer

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Why isn't the government taking a whole-society view and spending millions per day on this?
Who says they're not? There must be people working very hard designing and planning what to do, obtaining the necessary materials, lining up cranes and other plant. Trying to get stuck in before you've decided what to do can be a false economy - HS2 being the classic example.
 

N1

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Not suggesting it could be used now, more just out of interest. How many trains could be turned around an hour using Exhibition Centre siding. Could you run say an hourly Shotts service and hourly Lanark service? Would also have to be enough 318s and 320s to run said services.
 

WTT Gremlin

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Health and safety getting silly now. I doubt turning the power on is going to cause anything bad to happen.
Yes... because sure turning on the 25kV circuit with 'bare wiring' in an area where colossal amount of water has been sprayed without doing any safety checks is is the rational thing to do.
Where have I claimed to be an expert?
May not have claimed to be an expert, but did consider yourself knowledgeable enough regarding 25kV electrical systems which 'bare wiring' in an area where colossal amount of water has been sprayed without conducting any safety checks, to both pass judgement on others actions, and make a statement regarding the safety risk.

So if... you are as you say not an expert... then how about not making judgemental comments about others actions... or statements on the safety of system than even when working normally has the potential to cause fatal harm?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not suggesting it could be used now, more just out of interest. How many trains could be turned around an hour using Exhibition Centre siding. Could you run say an hourly Shotts service and hourly Lanark service? Would also have to be enough 318s and 320s to run said services.
A quick look at the Scotland TPR on the NR website would indicate about 6 turnrounds/hour with the services terminating/starting at Anderston. That would depend on what else is using the line, and how the timings match up with the WTT parts of those routes/wider timetable.
 
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380101

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Yes... because sure turning on the 25kV circuit with 'bare wiring' in an area where colossal amount of water has been sprayed without doing any safety checks is is the rational thing to do.

Whilst the overheads were isolated during the ongoing fire, they are nowhere near where the building that was on fire was. They are about 150 - 200m away at the other end of the station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not suggesting it could be used now, more just out of interest. How many trains could be turned around an hour using Exhibition Centre siding. Could you run say an hourly Shotts service and hourly Lanark service? Would also have to be enough 318s and 320s to run said services.

Services via Shotts require 380s or 385s and a Conductor (158s also run over the route but this is maintenence moves and again the crews don't sign the low level). None of the crews that sign the Shotts line or 380/385s sign the low level.
 

N1

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Services via Shotts require 380s or 385s and a Conductor (158s also run over the route but this is maintenence moves and again the crews don't sign the low level). None of the crews that sign the Shotts line or 380/385s sign the low level.
Makes sense, is the extent of 318/320 route knowledge as far as Carstairs, and do crews that sign low level Argyle line sign to Lanark?
 

Warrior2852

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Wonder why Edinburgh via Shotts isn't being done, that's some quite long distance (relatively speaking compared to some other commuter lines in the area) journeys with more limited alternative transport options, still being cancelled entirely any closer to Glasgow than West Calder.
 
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godfreycomplex

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Wonder why Edinburgh via Shotts isn't being done, that's some quite long distance (relatively speaking compared to some other commuter lines in the area) journeys with more limited alternative transport options still being cancelled entirely any closer to Glasgow than West Calder.
A fair few of those passengers are also in easy reach (and have largely already transferred to) the Airdrie to Bathgate line
 

Peter0124

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Wonder why Edinburgh via Shotts isn't being done, that's some quite long distance (relatively speaking compared to some other commuter lines in the area) journeys with more limited alternative transport options still being cancelled entirely any closer to Glasgow than West Calder.
Imo they should have done that over Lanark, as Holytown through to West Calder still has no service. Whereas Lanarks can start from Motherwell.
 

D6130

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Imo they should have done that over Lanark, as Holytown through to West Calder still has no service. Whereas Lanarks can start from Motherwell.
I wonder what equally stops the Shotts line services running from Motherwell as well?
Platform capacity at Motherwell I would have thought.... especially with the hourly Avanti terminating there.
 

318266

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Platform capacity at Motherwell I would have thought.... especially with the hourly Avanti terminating there.
Could they not try to tie it in with the other Lanark service? To extend the present hourly service to Motherwell calling all stations would arrive at ~xx42, which matches well with the ~xx47 to Lanark. In the return direction, the ~xx15 arrival from Lanark would match slightly less well with a ~xx27 departure north, but it could always just wait time further down at Holytown or Carfin.
 
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Rail Ranger

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As someone mentioned on WNXX it would be good if Avanti called at Lockerbie through the day. Lockerbie is normally served by TPE.
 
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