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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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swt_passenger

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When the rebuild of the flyover takes place and the road is closed for several months the bus diversions must be handled much better.
Why would the road necessarily be closed for several months? We all know there’s a crazy extended scheme going on in Oxford, but very many rail over road bridges have been replaced in just a few days, often in the quiet period between Christmas and New Year.
 
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sharpener

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Why would the road necessarily be closed for several months? We all know there’s a crazy extended scheme going on in Oxford, but very many rail over road bridges have been replaced in just a few days, often in the quiet period between Christmas and New Year.

Here's one I vividly remember as a child growing up in New Malden https://www.facebook.com/groups/344555315673862/posts/2032620663533977/.

IIRC two of the four lines were replaced over a weekend closure and the other two about a month later, someone will have the exact timings...
 

al green

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Here's one I vividly remember as a child growing up in New Malden https://www.facebook.com/groups/344555315673862/posts/2032620663533977/.

IIRC two of the four lines were replaced over a weekend closure and the other two about a month later, someone will have the exact timings...
And here's one from the Oldham Chronicle last week.

"The Saddleworth South representative says one of the biggest issues facing the area would be the five-month closure of the A670 at Greenfield to build a new railway bridge."

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why would the road necessarily be closed for several months? We all know there’s a crazy extended scheme going on in Oxford, but very many rail over road bridges have been replaced in just a few days, often in the quiet period between Christmas and New Year.
Because it's not just a case of replacing the deck. The old concrete bridge will be demolished, the support columns will be demolished (and possibly abutments), new support columns will need to be built and finally the new bridge will be installed. Some of the support columns are in the central reservation of the road so there is no way the road can be open while work on them is taking place. While MK hasn't been given actual dates there have been indications that the whole process is likely to take several months.
 
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edwin_m

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Because it's not just a case of replacing the deck. The old concrete bridge will be demolished, the support columns will be demolished (and possibly abutments), new support columns will need to be built and finally the new bridge will be installed. Some of the support columns are in the central reservation of the road so there is no way the road can be open while work on them is taking place. While MK hasn't been given actual dates there have been indications that the whole process is likely to take several months.
I would expect several shorter road closures for major activities such as removing the span, removing the abutments and pier and installing the new span - not a long duration road closure. There might be lane closures in between when working close to the carriageway.
 

D1511

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Saxon Street (V7) will be closed for 6-9 months, according to the current NR streetworks permit application. Negotiations are ongoing.

For those that are local, EWR are holding two design update sessions focussed on Bletchley next week.....

  • Wednesday 28th 2-7pm at the South Central Institute of Technology, MK3 6DR, and
  • Saturday 31st January 12-5pm at Queensway Methodist church MK2 2HB
 

InTheEastMids

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Saxon Street (V7) will be closed for 6-9 months, according to the current NR streetworks permit application. Negotiations are ongoing.

For those that are local, EWR are holding two design update sessions focussed on Bletchley next week.....

  • Wednesday 28th 2-7pm at the South Central Institute of Technology, MK3 6DR, and
  • Saturday 31st January 12-5pm at Queensway Methodist church MK2 2HB
It seems EWR are proposing to build the train maintenance depot at Bletchley West, with facilities for up to 20 x 120m trains.
The linked webpage sets out the location to the north of EWR, North West of Newton Longville.

 

jfowkes

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Interesting that they mention the TMD having a Traction Power Substation
Makes sense I guess, very easy to electrify between Bicester and Bletchley. I don't think EWR have said exactly where they're going to electrify? But that section of route would certainly make sense.
It seems EWR are proposing to build the train maintenance depot at Bletchley West, with facilities for up to 20 x 120m trains.
The linked webpage sets out the location to the north of EWR, North West of Newton Longville.

I know this is sheer fantasy but they should move the entire Bletchley Depot there, so they can build the EWR north-east chord. The industrial buildings that get cut off by it can move to where the depot used to be.
 

D1511

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It seems EWR are proposing to build the train maintenance depot at Bletchley West, with facilities for up to 20 x 120m trains.
The linked webpage sets out the location to the north of EWR, North West of Newton Longville.

Blimey, that's a bit out of the blue. It just dropped yesterday late, I see.
I might have expected a bit more prior engagement on the MK side of the border about a significant thing like this....even although it's just on the Bucks side.
I'd better get myself along to one of the drop-ins next week.......

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I know this is sheer fantasy but they should move the entire Bletchley Depot there, so they can build the EWR north-east chord. The industrial buildings that get cut off by it can move to where the depot used to be.
It's an excellent idea though. The chord is a no brainer to maximise the route's potential and it would certainly create the necessary space for it. The industrial sheds aren't huge value development though, so in rail project terms, the CPO costs wouldn't be terrifying to just remove them.
I think I've heard £800m banded about for the whole kit and caboodle.......
 
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InTheEastMids

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Interesting that they mention the TMD having a Traction Power Substation
Yes, question is whether they mean a full fat substation for continuous electrification of the line, or something small to allow BEMU to recharge, shiny and be tested in electric power within the depot.

A good question for somebody to ask at the stakeholder events next week?
 

stuving

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Yes, question is whether they mean a full fat substation for continuous electrification of the line, or something small to allow BEMU to recharge, shiny and be tested in electric power within the depot.

A good question for somebody to ask at the stakeholder events next week?
If you follow the link in the announcement about the TMD to the 2024 Non-Statutory Consultation you can read what that says about electrification, and (it's not a lot) about searching for a TMD location. Their plans are still based on adding electrification at some stage, with a preference for discontinuous + battery trains. They do identify likely feed stations, not including Bletchley West. So I suspect the mention of traction power there is about an internal depot supply and perhaps some heavyweight battery charging.

Would an electric stock depot that took its supply from the railway it was accessed from usually be separated by a break and have separate protection switchgear? It sounds a sensible precaution, on top of local switching and other more complex safety arrangements for maintenance areas.
 
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al green

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It seems EWR are proposing to build the train maintenance depot at Bletchley West, with facilities for up to 20 x 120m trains.
The linked webpage sets out the location to the north of EWR, North West of Newton Longville.

The site includes the old WWII Swanbourne Sidings.(which were not at Swanbourne)

It's a pretty inaccessible site. Staff and train crews will have to drive there unless they add a staff halt on EWR.
 

D365

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The site includes the old WWII Swanbourne Sidings.(which were not at Swanbourne)

It's a pretty inaccessible site. Staff and train crews will have to drive there unless they add a staff halt on EWR.
I take it no bus services into Newton Longville via Whaddon Road?
 
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edwin_m

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Would an electric stock depot that took its supply from the railway it was accessed from usually be separated by a break and have separate protection switchgear? It sounds a sensible precaution, on top of local switching and other more complex safety arrangements for maintenance areas.
It is also helpful if the depot and main line supplies are separated, so the depot can still operate while the main line is isolated for engineering.
 

al green

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I take it no bus services into Newton Longville via Whaddon Road?
Correct. Although new housing is being built between the Racecourses estate and Whaddon Rd. That is in Bucks Council area, not in MKCC area, but will presumably have a bus service and cycleways so in a few years time Whaddon rd will become accessible by other modes as well as the car.

Early proposals for EWR had a station in the Newton Longville area but it got dropped. With a TMD and new housing there may be a case for re-instating it.
 

D365

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Do people that work on TMDs not normally drive to work?
I like to get bus or metro if I can make the timings work!

Correct. Although new housing is being built between the Racecourses estate and Whaddon Rd. That is in Bucks Council area, not in MKCC area, but will presumably have a bus service and cycleways so in a few years time Whaddon rd will become accessible by other modes as well as the car.

Early proposals for EWR had a station in the Newton Longville area but it got dropped. With a TMD and new housing there may be a case for re-instating it.
Thanks for the detail. The Newton Longville station was in the back of my mind and will be an interesting one to speculate on, especially with the additional hourly services now proposed.
 
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We went to the drop in in Bletchley this afternoon. The only plans and explanation boards were about the new depot and the new eastern entrance to Bletchley station - ie they were only talking about things related to Bletchley not the wider issues and area. Someone did say that they were still planning bridges at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill level crossings but that (3rd party?) funding had to be found for them.

I asked about the chaos the recent Saxon Street closure had caused and was told that they appreciated that any works in the future would need wider consultation and mitigation measures.

The new proposed station entrance - which they are keen on 3rd party funding being found for - is closer to the road bridge than I had realised. It depends on the roundabout being changed to a junction and Saxon Street ceasing to be dual carriageway along there. How on earth they expect all the traffic that uses the Buckingham Road and Saxon Street currently to get to and from both sides of the line to magically use another route - what route? - will be interesting to see. It also appears that the western station entrance will also be moved slightly and altered.

I then asked why they'd gone for the location for the new TMD being out towards Swanbourne rather than using the existing train maintenance depot at Wolverton just up the WCML. The chap I spoke to agreed that Wolverton would have been a good plan but said that there is no capacity on the WCML to allow for the required train movements. I replied that HS2 was supposed to free up capacity on the WCML!

They seemed keen that we knew that the proposed trains would be battery units - has the new site been chosen I wonder as there's surrounding land for lots of solar panels to help with the energy needs?

I may not have remembered all of this totally verbatim but the gist of what I understood is above.
 

D1511

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We went to the drop in in Bletchley this afternoon. The only plans and explanation boards were about the new depot and the new eastern entrance to Bletchley station - ie they were only talking about things related to Bletchley not the wider issues and area. Someone did say that they were still planning bridges at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill level crossings but that (3rd party?) funding had to be found for them.
I was there too today, and can add a little detail

At Woburn Sands, they will deliver a NMT footbridge, but the adjacent Woodleys Farm vehicle crossing will be delivered as part of a housing development, although EWR may complete the link up to a junction with Newport Rd.

At Bow Brickhill, EWR will deliver the vehicle overbridge with Redways either side from their project budget and the crossing will be closed

Fenny Stratford will also be closed, with a short NMT diversion via the Canal towpath to allow cyclist and peds to continue up Simpson Rd. Vehicle diversion route is still under discussion.

Pony's crossing will be retained as a NMT crossing.

There's a MVL drop in next month where the LCs will be covered.
I asked about the chaos the recent Saxon Street closure had caused and was told that they appreciated that any works in the future would need wider consultation and mitigation measures.
To be fair to EWR, the chaos wasn't their fault. The diversion route for buses incurred 15-20 minute delays, so Arriva ops decided to change the service pattern and run a shuttle to and from Fenny on Watling St to try to maintain service continuity......but didn't bother to tell anyone, so the PIDs were still showing the superceded service pattern at the bus stops in Bletchley. The shuttle bus drivers had to convince people to get on their buses......
There will be a working group established between bus operators and the Council to make sure things work better for the longer closure starting in October.
The new proposed station entrance - which they are keen on 3rd party funding being found for - is closer to the road bridge than I had realised. It depends on the roundabout being changed to a junction and Saxon Street ceasing to be dual carriageway along there. How on earth they expect all the traffic that uses the Buckingham Road and Saxon Street currently to get to and from both sides of the line to magically use another route - what route? - will be interesting to see. It also appears that the western station entrance will also be moved slightly and altered.
The new entrance designs look great with a nice airy looking concourse on Saxon St with retail opportunities, opening out onto a nice area of public realm, created by the singling of Saxon St....which works perfectly well in the traffic models incidentally. Buckingham Rd is already reduced to a single lane under the railway bridge anyway to accommodate the Redways there, so the traffic constraint is already there, and the removal of two lanes round the corner doesn't really make any difference. The problems last week were due to the closure of the V7 link further north of Princess Way.
There's a new station overbridge linking to the new entrance with provides for the circulating and vertical capacity to the platforms, located to the south of the existing overbridge (which is to be retained) and an enlarged Western ticket hall appears to occupy the site of the existing WMT offices and car park. So the station slides south about 50m or so. Overall, I was impressed.....except that EWR aren't going to pay for all of it, and are looking for NR/DfT and MKCC to match fund. Cost is about £13m ATM, although there is still optimism bias included, so it may reduce a bit.
I then asked why they'd gone for the location for the new TMD being out towards Swanbourne rather than using the existing train maintenance depot at Wolverton just up the WCML. The chap I spoke to agreed that Wolverton would have been a good plan but said that there is no capacity on the WCML to allow for the required train movements. I replied that HS2 was supposed to free up capacity on the WCML!
I asked the same question, and also asked about whether an enlargement of the existing Bletchley TMD had been considered and received much the same answer! They claim to have looked at 36 different TMD options......although there were only 6 in the technical document.
They seemed keen that we knew that the proposed trains would be battery units - has the new site been chosen I wonder as there's surrounding land for lots of solar panels to help with the energy needs?
I heard them say this too, and that's been the line for a while. I'm wondering if they were stressing that today to try to address resident concerns about noise. However, there's a freight loop proposed on the south side opposite the depot site that they were less keen to mention, as there will be stationary freight trains pulling off up a 1:80, and that's where the noise will be generated.....and one end of the loop is quite close to the Poets Estate.


I also had a chat with one of the EWR bods who admitted the NE chord at Bletchley is a no brainer from a strategic perspective, but it is not within their current scope as they are "focussed on delivering a passenger railway".....although he also admitted they'd done some preliminary work on this.
Seems rather a blinkered approach for a bit of national rail infrastructure to me, but the battle isn't lost on that yet.
 
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Bald Rick

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Swanbourne is an interesting site because it is on a gradient. It was looked at as a location for logistics trains, but discoutned as you don’t want to be loading ballast in sidings when they a bit of a jolt combined with a dicky handbrake can have them running away.

Having local Solar is not much help, as the trains will need most charging overnight….

There is however a decent DNO link (132kV?) just across the field.
 

D1511

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What do these mean, please?

I assume ATM is At The Moment & LCs is Level Crossings.
Yes, sorry.... @PLY2AYS has answered

NMT = Non motorised transport, so NMT bridges will have cycle/wheelchair compliant ramps of max 1:21 gradient with a flat section every 10m of ramp.

MVL is the Marston Vale Line, the existing line between Bletchley and Bedford where the referenced Level Crossings (LCs) are situated.

The Marston Vale drop in sessions which will cover the twin tracking, consolidated station designs and the future status of the existing level crossings along the route aren't showing up yet on EWRs community hub page, but they mentioned today they were starting next month at various locations along the route. I'll post the details as soon as the dates and venues are announced.
 

DarloRich

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Fenny Stratford will also be closed, with a short NMT diversion via the Canal towpath to allow cyclist and peds to continue up Simpson Rd. Vehicle diversion route is still under discussion.
this is another bone of contention in the area along with our station being closed. The crossing closure will cut the village in half AND push traffic onto unsuitable residential streets.

consolidated station designs
you mean closed. Lets call it what it is.

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I then asked why they'd gone for the location for the new TMD being out towards Swanbourne rather than using the existing train maintenance depot at Wolverton just up the WCML.
Wolverton isn't an ideal location access or EW service wise though.
 

zwk500

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I then asked why they'd gone for the location for the new TMD being out towards Swanbourne rather than using the existing train maintenance depot at Wolverton just up the WCML. The chap I spoke to agreed that Wolverton would have been a good plan but said that there is no capacity on the WCML to allow for the required train movements. I replied that HS2 was supposed to free up capacity on the WCML!
The access to Wolverton would need completely reconfiguring if that was the depot used. At the moment you need to stop on the Slow lines, reverse in, run to the headshunt, then go slowly down quite a long single lead until passing over the canal, before reversing once again into the works themselves.

To use Wolverton would probably have required connecting the headshunt at the south end to allow direct moves in and out, possibly a connection off the fast lines as well for disruption/engineering 2-tracks, and then taking out the NR Compound and industrial units to build a new depot backing onto the road that has a level crossing with the depot access line.
 

al green

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We went to the drop in in Bletchley this afternoon. The only plans and explanation boards were about the new depot and the new eastern entrance to Bletchley station - ie they were only talking about things related to Bletchley not the wider issues and area. Someone did say that they were still planning bridges at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill level crossings but that (3rd party?) funding had to be found for them.
I also was there yesterday afternoon, probably at the same time as @WolvertonWorks and @D1511. Curiously I got some slightly different answers to some of the same questions. It seems to have depended upon which member of staff you spoke to.

I asked about the EWR TAA that was mention in #6954. It was on both ORR and NR websites. It has now disappeared from both. I spoke to one EWR person who said he was one of its authors but seemed to be unaware that it had been withdrawn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

At Bow Brickhill, EWR will deliver the vehicle overbridge with Redways either side from their project budget and the crossing will be closed
They told me it was not certain and it was dependent upon 3rd party funding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The new proposed station entrance - which they are keen on 3rd party funding being found for - is closer to the road bridge than I had realised. It depends on the roundabout being changed to a junction and Saxon Street ceasing to be dual carriageway along there. How on earth they expect all the traffic that uses the Buckingham Road and Saxon Street currently to get to and from both sides of the line to magically use another route - what route? - will be interesting to see. It also appears that the western station entrance will also be moved slightly and altered.
MKCC has been planning to reduce Saxon St to single carriageway between Princes rdbt and Brunel rdbt and remove Brunel rdbt for several years as a traffic control measure. EWR now seem to want to make use of the space released for the relocated eastern entrance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I heard them say this too, and that's been the line for a while. I'm wondering if they were stressing that today to try to address resident concerns about noise. However, there's a freight loop proposed on the south side opposite the depot site that they were less keen to mention, as there will be stationary freight trains pulling off up a 1:80, and that's where the noise will be generated.....and one end of the loop is quite close to the Poets Estate.
They told me that the west bound loop would be to the west of the depot and the east bound loop would be to the east of the depot.

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The access to Wolverton would need completely reconfiguring if that was the depot used. At the moment you need to stop on the Slow lines, reverse in, run to the headshunt, then go slowly down quite a long single lead until passing over the canal, before reversing once again into the works themselves.

To use Wolverton would probably have required connecting the headshunt at the south end to allow direct moves in and out, possibly a connection off the fast lines as well for disruption/engineering 2-tracks, and then taking out the NR Compound and industrial units to build a new depot backing onto the road that has a level crossing with the depot access line.
Nice as it would be to use Wolverton works its not practical. It needs 3 reversals to get in or out. That's ok for 1tpd going in or out of the works but would be a nightmare for 20tpd each morning and night. I don't buy the "wcml is full" argument because it would mostly be at the beginning and end of the day when there are fewer services.
 
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eastdyke

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Thanks all for the updates from the 'drop-ins'.

I asked about the EWR TAA that was mention in #6954. It was on both ORR and NR websites. It has now disappeared from both. I spoke to one EWR person who said he was one of its authors but seemed to be unaware that it had been withdrawn.
? #6594

I thought parts of signed/dated submission were a bit strange.
How can you submit a TAA that included at Section 10:

10. Pre-application consultation
10.1 The consultation:

If consultation has not been carried out, explain why not. If it has, please list the consultees
The consultation will commence on Monday 15th December.
Who conducted the consultation?
Network Rail.
List all consultees who responded and include their responses and any associated documentation or
correspondence between the parties.
Blank list.

etc etc.

There is a huge multi-faceted workload to fill the gaps!

And time ticks away ....
 

Magdalia

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This was posted on the EWR website on 28 January, setting out how the Planning and Infrastructure Act will change how consultation will happen leading up to the Development Consent Order application.


Our Chief Strategy Officer Will Gallagher met with Government ministers to discuss how the new Planning and Infrastructure Act will help deliver critical infrastructure more quickly and improve public engagement during the planning process.​

Will joined fellow infrastructure providers, including Water UK, National Grid and Renewables UK, to discuss the new legislation at a ministerial roundtable event.

The Act, which became law just before Christmas, aims to streamline the planning system to help deliver railways, roads and homes more quickly, while improving the quality of public engagement.

For East West Rail, which is one of the first projects to operate under the new legislation, the changes mean communities could benefit from the railway’s economic and social impacts sooner. Crucially, the legislation also supports more flexible and locally focused engagement.

As a result, we have launched a series of Design Update Sessions to discuss emerging proposals directly with communities along the route. While the Act removes the requirement for a statutory consultation ahead of submitting a formal application to build the railway – a Development Consent Order – we will still undertake a full route-wide consultation this spring.

Will Gallagher said: “We had a really productive discussion about how we implement the new Planning and Infrastructure Act to maximise its benefits - both to speed up the opening of EWR by making the planning process simpler and quicker, and also to make sure local communities get high quality ongoing engagement rather than just a single statutory consultation.”

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This may fall victim to the dreaded automerge!

It seems EWR are proposing to build the train maintenance depot at Bletchley West, with facilities for up to 20 x 120m trains.
The linked webpage sets out the location to the north of EWR, North West of Newton Longville.


BBC now have report on the proposed train maintenance depot.


Villagers living near the site of a proposed East West Rail train maintenance depot have spoken of their "shock" at the plans.

The rail company wants to build on land alongside Whaddon Road, west of Bletchley and Newton Longville, near Milton Keynes, as part of the scheme, external to link Oxford and Cambridge.
 
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al green

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BBC now have report on the proposed train maintenance depot.

There was an error in the original BBC TMD story. It said, " If approved, the Bletchley West depot would include sidings capable of housing 25-car trains, each about 120
metres long, and maintenance workshops designed to service multiple trains."
Following my intervention with the journalist, it now says, "If approved, the Bletchley West depot would include sidings capable of housing 20 five-car trains,..."
Apparently a sub-editor changed "twenty five car trains" into "25-car trains". 25-car trains would be a sight to behold!
 
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