Riots in Birmingham/London/Manchester etc

[passmore]

I think it's society is broken because an increasing number of people do not consider others before they do things. It's all about instant personal gratification and never-mind the consequences to others for the things that are said and done.

But it is indicative of a whole society? We saw this with the student protesters, a guy throwing a fire extinguisher from a roof and other acts of rioting, but the vast majority of people were demonstrating peacefully.

What we are seeing is a section of society, not society in general. Whether that section represents a 'fragment' of a 'fragmented' society is up to personal interpretation.

To me, talking about how to deal with 'broken Britain' is only going to garner long-term solutions. We need to think about contingency plans in the short-term and deal with this problem here and now.

 

[4SRKT]

But it is indicative of a whole society? We saw this with the student protesters, a guy throwing a fire extinguisher from a roof and other acts of rioting, but the vast majority of people were demonstrating peacefully.

What we are seeing is a section of society, not society in general.

Indeed. Talk of 'broken society' can just be ignored like the wingnuts who spout it. Sadly the feral thugs are less easy to ignore.

 

[Hydro]

For the record, I am no bleeding heart liberal, but an old fashioned leftist who believes these people need dealing with very harshly, but that then the errors of the right wing simplistic wingnuts need to be put right. Why is it the wingnuts think that rioters spring, fully formed, from some sort of 'broken society' without seeing any connection between that state of society and the economics they support that have caused the conditions in first place? How could it be otherwise given the preeminence of these policies for the last 30+ years? This in no way exculpates the individuals concerned, but unless we want to keep on locking people up in ever increasing numbers we need to have a much more inclusive society.

I'm never a fan of pushing politics, tactics of society, or policies into "wings". I believe "right wing" and "left wing" ideologies have their place in the same society, circumstances permitting.

What people would term as a "right wing" (heavy policing, suspension of certain freedoms and curfews for example) response to the immediate "tactical" factors (looting, vandalism, destruction of property) is appropriate in times of emergency to bring society back to order.

To solve the strategic issues (the society based factors leading to this creation of an "underclass" [I hate this word]) a more "left-wing" approach is needed, and demonisation and creation of ghettos to pen these people in will only make things worse in the long run.

Having a solid permanent "right wing" or "left wing" society will always create issues at either end of the scale of society.

 

[4SRKT]

I'm never a fan of pushing politics, tactics of society, or policies into "wings". I believe "right wing" and "left wing" ideologies have their place in the same society, circumstances permitting.

What people would term as a "right wing" (heavy policing, suspension of certain freedoms and curfews for example) response to the immediate "tactical" factors (looting, vandalism, destruction of property) is appropriate in times of emergency to bring society back to order.

To solve the strategic issues (the society based factors leading to this creation of an "underclass" [I hate this word]) a more "left-wing" approach is needed, and demonisation and creation of ghettos to pen these people in will only make things worse in the long run.

Having a solid permanent "right wing" or "left wing" society will always create issues at either end of the scale of society.

I agree, and use the term 'leftist' carefully to describe myself, whereas I use the term 'right wing' deliberately to ridicule the 'string 'em up' and 'broken society' brigade. Any 'right-wingers' with more progressive views extending to remedies beyond killing people they don't like are fine by me.

 

[Greenback]

The very people who talk about British Society being 'broken' or 'crazy' or whatever are the same wingnuts who fail/refuse to see that this problem of poorly-educated feral underclasses is one that is much worse in countries who have swallowed the whole Reaganite/Thatcherite model hook, line and sinker. Not only does right wing economics create the underclass in the first place, but offers no solutions other than 'shoot 'em' or 'incarcerate 'em' for its amelioration.

For the record, I am no bleeding heart liberal, but an old fashioned leftist who believes these people need dealing with very harshly, but that then the errors of the right wing simplistic wingnuts need to be put right. Why is it the wingnuts think that rioters spring, fully formed, from some sort of 'broken society' without seeing any connection between that state of society and the economics they support that have caused the conditions in first place? How could it be otherwise given the preeminence of these policies for the last 30+ years? This in no way exculpates the individuals concerned, but unless we want to keep on locking people up in ever increasing numbers we need to have a much more inclusive society.

I agree.

I think society is 'broken' because an increasing number of people do not consider others before they do things. It's all about instant personal gratification and never-mind the consequences to others for the things that are said and done.

The left and right are both to blame. The left for not championing personal responsibility, and promoting the idea the state (or someone else) will do everything. The right for believing markets are the answer to everything, where the £ is the bottom line. So it doesn't matter if an entire generation is left unemployed because it's 1p cheaper, and it doesn't matter if the media and film industry are pumping out trash full of bad language, immoral behaviour and so on, because it sells...and so on.

Most of these kids have no idea why what they are doing is wrong, and think it quite okay because 'they can get away with it'.

I agree again. We have developed a culture of instant personal gratification. Many things have contributed to this, an erosion of discipline, the rise of celebrity culture, irresponsible personal spending through credit cards, gangsta rap, the list is endless.

But it is indicative of a whole society? We saw this with the student protesters, a guy throwing a fire extinguisher from a roof and other acts of rioting, but the vast majority of people were demonstrating peacefully.

What we are seeing is a section of society, not society in general. Whether that section represents a 'fragment' of a 'fragmented' society is up to personal interpretation.

To me, talking about how to deal with 'broken Britain' is only going to garner long-term solutions. We need to think about contingency plans in the short-term and deal with this problem here and now.

It is not indicative of the whole of society. But what are seeing is representative of the selfish attitudes of many of those in society who would not dream of rioting.

Like the woman with the buggy who yelled a load of abuse at the driver of a bus just because it wasn't low floor and if she wanted to board she had to collapse it.

Like the man in the wheelchair who thought he had the right to get on any train to Guide Bridge, and then initiate trial by media.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made...

I'm never a fan of pushing politics, tactics of society, or policies into "wings". I believe "right wing" and "left wing" ideologies have their place in the same society, circumstances permitting.

What people would term as a "right wing" (heavy policing, suspension of certain freedoms and curfews for example) response to the immediate "tactical" factors (looting, vandalism, destruction of property) is appropriate in times of emergency to bring society back to order.

To solve the strategic issues (the society based factors leading to this creation of an "underclass" [I hate this word]) a more "left-wing" approach is needed, and demonisation and creation of ghettos to pen these people in will only make things worse in the long run.

Having a solid permanent "right wing" or "left wing" society will always create issues at either end of the scale of society.

I don't like to label things as right or left wing, but it's a convenient way of describing the different ideas that seek the same results - a happy and prosperous nation.

My personal view is that we are all responsible for what has been happening in the last few days. We should not have allowed it to get to this stage. I might even go further and say that the root of all this rampant consumerism is globalisation and the technological advances that have come in the last two decades.

 

[Metroland]

But it is indicative of a whole society?

What we are seeing is a section of society, not society in general.

Many of these kids would say the politician that rips of the taxpayer for thousands, or the banker that sends the country into debt and wants a bail out from ordinary people paid for by ordinary people making them even bigger social security scroungers than their (often) don't-care parents that have kids on the state, paid for by everyone else, or the corporate boss that doesn't give a damn about his/her employees and dumps tons of toxic chemicals into the environment, or the media person that hacks into phones and uses other people to make money whatever the consequences are every bit as immoral/criminal/bad as they are..

Now that's a wider debate, but in the end many of these kids are feral because of the society adults have created. It's not the whole of society, or maybe even a significant portion, but many people have lost their moral compass because policy makers have never considered it important enough to be at the centre of everything we do.

 

[Greenback]

Many of these kids would say the politician that rips of the taxpayer for thousands, or the banker that sends the country into debt and wants a bail out from ordinary people paid for by ordinary people making them even bigger social security scroungers than their (often) don't-care parents that have kids on the state, paid for by everyone else, or the corporate boss that doesn't give a damn about his/her employees and dumps tons of toxic chemicals into the environment, the the media person that hacks into phones and uses other people to make money whatever the consequences are every bit as immoral/criminal/bad as they are..

Now that's a wider debate, but in the end many of these kids are feral because of the society adults have created.

That's the point I was trying to make, Metroland you are so much more eloquent!

 

[passmore]

Many of these kids would say the politician that rips of the taxpayer for thousands, or the banker that sends the country into debt and wants a bail out from ordinary people paid for by ordinary people making them even bigger social security scroungers than their (often) don't-care parents that have kids on the state, paid for by everyone else, or the corporate boss that doesn't give a damn about his/her employees and dumps tons of toxic chemicals into the environment, the the media person that hacks into phones and uses other people to make money whatever the consequences are every bit as immoral/criminal/bad as they are..

Now that's a wider debate, but in the end many of these kids are feral because of the society adults have created.

Oh I agree, we have some awful families round this part of MK who cannot seem to grasp the concept of instilling discipline at an early age.

But we also have a hell of a lot of families with kids about 9 or 10 years old who are civil and polite.

Now I ask, should the latter part of society have to change because of the feral youth of the underclass?

 

[Hydro]

Many of these kids would say the politician that rips of the taxpayer for thousands, or the banker that sends the country into debt and wants a bail out from ordinary people paid for by ordinary people making them even bigger social security scroungers than their (often) don't-care parents that have kids on the state, paid for by everyone else, or the corporate boss that doesn't give a damn about his/her employees and dumps tons of toxic chemicals into the environment, or the media person that hacks into phones and uses other people to make money whatever the consequences are every bit as immoral/criminal/bad as they are..

Now that's a wider debate, but in the end many of these kids are feral because of the society adults have created. It's not the whole of society, or many even a significant portion, but many people have lost their moral compass because policy makers have never considered it important enough to be at the centre of everything we do.

Again, good points. The problem is that if people on the streets truly believe that, why are they punishing their neighbours? Why aren't they taking it out on the politicians, the corporate businesses? Why are they burning family owned local shops, with peoples houses above them? Why is it the residents that are suffering? If I'm annoyed at my bank, I don't phone my Mum and call her a bitch.

 

[Greenback]

Again, good points. The problem is that if people on the streets truly believe that, why are they punishing their neighbours? Why aren't they taking it out on the politicians, the corporate businesses? Why are they burning family owned local shops, with peoples houses above them? Why is it the residents that are suffering? If I'm annoyed at my bank, I don't phone my Mum and call her a bitch.

Because they have lost their moral compass? There appears to be a huge gulf between the outlook of these people and most people. They can't seem to understand that if you own a shop, you are not necessarily raking it in. To them everyone that isn't like them is part of the problem.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh I agree, we have some awful families round this part of MK who cannot seem to grasp the concept of instilling discipline at an early age.

But we also have a hell of a lot of families with kids about 9 or 10 years old who are civil and polite.

Now I ask, should the latter part of society have to change because of the feral youth of the underclass?

Precisely. Why should I have to change? There is less poverty and disenfranchisement in this country than there has ever been. My mother is from Byker, Newcastle and my father grew up in Derry, leaving when the Troubles got bad. My parents were poor and deprived as children. I was not, thanks to their hard work.

I reject the notion that I am somehow collectively to blame for this. I mind my own business, have personal ambition, work hard and pay tax. My line of work is in public service. How can you or I be blamed for this?


Oh, and Passmore - totally agree with you as a fellow MK dweller!

 

[Greenback]

Oh I agree, we have some awful families round this part of MK who cannot seem to grasp the concept of instilling discipline at an early age.

But we also have a hell of a lot of families with kids about 9 or 10 years old who are civil and polite.

Now I ask, should the latter part of society have to change because of the feral youth of the underclass?

We are not just talking about kids though. We are talking about sections of the community (which probably isn't the right word int he circumstances) that believe they have the 'right' to do what they want and take what they want. What has created that in the first place? Society itself, where everything is instant and doesn't require talent, dedication or hard work

 

[Metroland]

Again, good points. The problem is that if people on the streets truly believe that, why are they punishing their neighbours? Why aren't they taking it out on the politicians, the corporate businesses? Why are they burning family owned local shops, with peoples houses above them? Why is it the residents that are suffering? If I'm annoyed at my bank, I don't phone my Mum and call her a bitch.

I would suggest they think, through ignorance, mainly because of the way they have been brought up, or things they have been exposed to, it's fun.

Some may think it's okay because they see themselves as victims, others may think it's an 'everything goes' society, and there are no consequences, especially to them.

I would also suggest there is not one cause but many: from technology, to upbringing, economics, to bad parents, from lack of regard for others, to just plain 'it's a laugh'

Of course the whole of society should not suffer, say through restricting social media, but I have the feeling the few will ruin it for the many.

 

[Hydro]

Because they have lost their moral compass? There appears to be a huge gulf between the outlook of these people and most people. They can't seem to understand that if you own a shop, you are not necessarily raking it in. To them everyone that isn't like them is part of the problem.

It's a very damaging problem. I'll admit it makes my head hurt to see people acting so stupidly, in the mindset that they are absolutely right.

Blaming it on society is not blaming it on individuals who do are straight and fly right. Society in this context, rests with policies of local and national Government, not the likes of you and me. We are all products of society, but our environment and upbringing goes a long way in determining how we deal with what it throws at us.

 

[passmore]

We are not just talking about kids though. We are talking about sections of the community (which probably isn't the right word int he circumstances) that believe they have the 'right' to do what they want and take what they want. What has created that in the first place? Society itself, where everything is instant and doesn't require talent, dedication or hard work

Again, you generalise. You seem to forget that there are many aspects of society which you do need talent, dedication and hard work and is far from instant, some you need in abundance. Not every family that is a product of today's society feels they have the 'right to do what they want/take what they want', hence why I was trying to illustrate 2 different families near where I live.
If you start bunching an ordinary, middle-class family who have worked all their life supporting their kids with those that scrounge and have kids with no discipline, you start creating rules which have absolutely no benefit to the law-abiding family.

This is what I'm afraid of happening as a result of these riots. Why should I have to change my lifestyle for those intent on causing anarchy?

 

[90019]

This post from another forum made me smile.

Felt on top of things in my area tonight - I've spent all day out and about. Searched plenty of people and given them a 'f*ck off' pill, whenever there has been someone trying to rob/loot arrest has been swift and brutal. We compulsorily dismounted a robber from his moped last thing, using a Mondeo. He's in custody, the moped was stolen at knifepoint yesterday during the looting.
Moped undamaged by miracle! Robber... No so.



Nicked 3 prize c*nts with scream masks, a knife and golf gloves early on in the afternoon too. Well known robbers. Courts open until 10pm. Have custody f*ckers, no passing go, no collection of loot tonight.

 

[DarloRich]

Precisely. Why should I have to change? There is less poverty and disenfranchisement in this country than there has ever been. My mother is from Byker, Newcastle and my father grew up in Derry, leaving when the Troubles got bad. My parents were poor and deprived as children. I was not, thanks to their hard work.

I reject the notion that I am somehow collectively to blame for this. I mind my own business, have personal ambition, work hard and pay tax. My line of work is in public service. How can you or I be blamed for this?


Oh, and Passmore - totally agree with you as a fellow MK dweller!

What was going on in Blethcley last night? We had two police helicopters over Fenny Stratford for a good hour last night. The old Bill were dashing around everywhere and i could hear loads of sirens in the distance?

( as an aside i see it took Northern Coppers, my mate included, to come down sarf and sort out the problems in London! )

 

[Greenback]

I don't think anyone has asked anyone else to change their lifestyle? What I am suggesting is that we all need to take a look at our attitudes, and ask if the way we have developed socially and technologically has contributed to current events.

We can't get rid of the technology, but we can try and ensure that the implications of what it brings with it are known and understood.

 

[passmore]

I don't think anyone has asked anyone else to change their lifestyle? What I am suggesting is that we all need to take a look at our attitudes, and ask if the way we have developed socially and technologically has contributed to current events.

We can't get rid of the technology, but we can try and ensure that the implications of what it brings with it are known and understood.

Completely agree, but the generalisations about our society don't help, that's why I was worried that we might have to change our lifestyles purely because of a rioting 'section'.

It was merely a concern, not intending to suggest it was a foregone conclusion at all.

 

[Greenback]

Precisely. Why should I have to change? There is less poverty and disenfranchisement in this country than there has ever been. My mother is from Byker, Newcastle and my father grew up in Derry, leaving when the Troubles got bad. My parents were poor and deprived as children. I was not, thanks to their hard work.

I reject the notion that I am somehow collectively to blame for this. I mind my own business, have personal ambition, work hard and pay tax. My line of work is in public service. How can you or I be blamed for this?

Obviously there is no blame to be attached to individuals who have not been involved in the rioting. But I don't think we can hide from the fact that modern has contributed to the feeling that the rich and powerful can get away with anything. It's hardly surprising that the less rich and less powerful end up feeling that as well.

In fact, asking why I should have to change in fact actually strengthens the argument that there is too much selfishness in today's society! But let's be clear, there is no need, or benefit in individuals having to change their lifestyles. What does have to change I think is the constant presentation that being rich, famous and powerful is desirable, that treating other people badly can be rewarding, and that if you break the rules that society has set nothing will happen to you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Completely agree, but the generalisations about our society don't help, that's why I was worried that we might have to change our lifestyles purely because of a rioting 'section'.

It was merely a concern, not intending to suggest it was a foregone conclusion at all.

What we need to do is to balance preserving our liberties and lifestyles with the need to reinforce those sections of the moral code (ie greed is good, compassion is for the weak, only the strong succeed) which seem to have gone a little wrong.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Only in Britain could someone wearing £100 trainers, organising rioting and looting using £300 mobile phones complain about poverty.

This whole situation makes me feel ashamed to be British. Our society is a joke that puts materialistic ideals ahead of fellow human beings. A society where owning the latest iPad or mobile phone is more important than looking out for your next door neighbour, helping each other out and trying to make the world a better place. We have developed an I'm alright Jack society that tells people that you are nothing unless you have everything. A society that glorifies the haves and villifies and condemns the have-nots. And if truth be known in all honesty we are all to blame for this. We have allowed this situation to arise for decades but did nothing because everything is always someone elses problem to sort out. Nothing is ever 'their' fault anymore. It's always someone else to blame.

Our society and our way of living is a joke. We need to change our perspectives on things. Because if we don't then I can't see things ever improving or changing.

As for the rioters, well all I can say is that I hope they get everything they deserve. The phrase rebels without a cause comes to mind.

 

[yorkie]

An update regarding this sickening incident....

...They even loot from injured people .... .

1224: BBC 5 live speaks to a friend of the man, who was filmed bleeding and being helped by a gang of youths, who then stole the contents of his bag.
Dzuhair Hanafiah says the 20-year-old Malaysian student Mohammad Asyraf is currently in hospital with a broken jaw and is in "good spirits".
He only arrived in the UK four weeks ago. His bike and phone were taken and his mother is trying to find the money to visit him.

http://lockerz.com/s/128094134

"Alhamdulillah.Asyraf is ok.X-ray,jaw wired up.Now waiting for surgery for broken jaw, and tooth correction"

Also...

1233: Jon Manel BBC News Police have no idea about the identity of a man who was badly injured during rioting in London on Monday night. It is believed he was attacked after confronting teenagers in Ealing, who were setting fire to two large wheelie bins. He is in a critical condition in intensive care in a hospital in west London. The BBC understands that no identification was found on him. Police are appealing for anyone who might know who he is to contact them urgently. He is thought to be in his 40s or 50s, is white and was wearing a grey and yellow check shirt, khaki shorts and brown leather shoes. Police also want any witnesses to come forward.

1219: Scotland Yard says a man attacked after violence in Ealing on Monday night is still critically ill - contrary to reports on Twitter that he has died.


Hope he is okay.


Anyone who challenges the scum is a hero.

 

[Hydro]

I hope from the bottom of the part of my brain concerned with justice, punishment and dishing out of righteous pain that the swaggering **** responsible is caught and made an example of.

 

[yorkie]

As for the rioters, well all I can say is that I hope they get everything they deserve. The phrase rebels without a cause comes to mind.

I hope that too, but only a small number of them will, sadly.

 

[Rugd1022]

I was working 6Z25 last night heading south on the Midland Mainline, and approaching St Albans the sky over towards Watford was lit up with flames.... I've not seen anything on the news about it though.

The whole thing just sickens me.... the first person to be convicted so far turns out to be a primary scholl teaching assistant..... how did we come to this? Is this what our grandparents fought and lived through a World War for...?

 

[SS4]

The first person to appear before magistrates this morning, Alexis Bailey, 31, of Wye Street, Battersea, south London, was committed to Wood Green Crown Court, along with the majority of others. He pleaded guilty to burglary with intent to steal at Richer Sounds in Southend Road, Croydon on Monday

31!! This is not just youths.

 

[Metroland]

Nope there's many people in their 30s and 40s involved, some with jobs like teaching assistants or graphic designers. I suspect it has more to do with attitudes than poverty. People that live through the fantasy world of the media/advertising, who are increasingly out for themselves, and saw this as an opportunity to have some fun/grab what they could.

This is headline news throughout the world, these people have brought shame on all of us, we are seen as an aggressive, hedonistic, materialistic nation as it is.

The sad part about it is I suspect many of these uncouth morons actually feel no shame at all.

 

[90019]

Apologies for another cross-post, but this is another from a Police officer who has been involved in the rioting, and seems relevant.

Right,

all you leftie scum sympathisers need to shut the f*ck up RIGHT NOW.

You all bleat on about how there must be some deeper underlying cause and it would be better to understand it.

Nubs and Cooter have hit the nail on the head.

This was nicely demonstrated as a colleague and I attended the Balham Kebab Company last night to get some dinner (it was the only place left open, other than grubby chicken places, which were just refuelling stops for the scumbags anyway)

As we walk in (pretty much plain clothes other than our stab vests) a woman was talking to this little Asian kid, must've been about 14.

After he made a comment about a free TV, the conversation went something like this:

Woman - "So did you go out looting then?"
Kid - "No. I was out with my friends in Clapham though"
"Were your friends looting?
"Some of them. Most of them were just smashing stuff up"
"So you friends were out stealing then. Why were they doing it?"
"Free stuff, innit."

He then went on saying that its fun smashing things up, especially cos the police can't do anything. All this was being said as we sat at the table behind him. He hadn't even clocked that we were there, and other people in the shop were starting to giggle as he bleated on about his mates stealing and getting all this free gucci gear, having not realised there were two coppers sat behind him.

Until he said, "the police are outnumbered though innit"

I said to him

"Not tonight, mate."

This was met by a look on his face that said he had just soiled his pants.

All these armchair critics and lefties, apologising for these little sh*ts, take heed. There is no underlying reason. There is no pent up anger about their downtrodden poverty-ridden boredom-filled lives. It is nothing to do with being oppressed and having little hopes and aspirations. The number of houses I have been in where these little criminals live where there is a plasma TV in each room, each of the kids has an x-box and thousands of pairs of gucci trainers.

They're given everything and yet still want more, citing deprivation and oppression all the f*cking time.

It is about greed. Pure and simple. These little turds live to commit crime. It is their raison d'etre. You know why? Because committing crime is seen as cool. It makes them a bad boy, and being a bad boy gets you "respek" amongst their tribe.

They want all this sh*t but would rather steal it than pay for it.

That, is the simple truth.

Stop apologising for criminals. :x

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Three confirmed dead in Birmingham.

 

[HST Power]

Girls rioting in Croydon tell 5 Live:

'We've been drinking wine since half nine in the morning. We're showing the rich we can do what we want. It's the fault of the Conservatives.

Second girl...

Is it the Conservatives?

First girl....

Yeah, the Conservatives.

:roll:

 

[Metroland]

100% true. For many people, not just the underclass, greed and aggressiveness is seen as good.

Look at the bling culture, where it's cool to show it off and go and beat someone up weaker or pick on minorities.

People that are perceived as kind are considered weak, interested in serious subjects as boring, and being materialistic is everything. And because an interest in serious subjects (like education) is boring, this is why the morons take, especially when they live in the fantasy world of violent films and advertising.