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Riots in Birmingham/London/Manchester etc

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mindfeeder

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BBC News are claiming Trains aren't running in Birmingham. But National Rail twitter/service updates are saying it's fine.

The reason i'm mentioning this is that i'm changing at New Street tomorrow afternoon.
 
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SS4

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BBC News are claiming Trains aren't running in Birmingham. But National Rail twitter/service updates are saying it's fine.

The reason i'm mentioning this is that i'm changing at New Street tomorrow afternoon.

Could be because no services are running at the moment (as always around this time). Both LM and VT have come out and said that trains are running normally and, in the case of LM, stations are too
 

yorkie

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Some people have been fighting back against the scum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8691761/London-riots-residents-fight-back.html


London riots: residents fight back
Shops and homes in an upmarket area of south London were protected from rioters by a human barricade as residents and workers across the capital were forced to defend themselves.

Locals in Clapham Junction, Dalston and Whitechapel took to the streets and faced down the mob on Monday night after realising that police were too over-stretched to help.

In south London, officers were nowhere to be seen as shopfronts were smashed in St John’s Road, Clapham Junction.

But the gangs of youths were prevented from carrying on their rampage south into Northcote Road, site of restaurants - specialist food stores and boutiques - by locals who guarded the top of the street from a branch of Nando’s to the Northcote pub.

A core of 20 people gathered at the junction, with up to 50 at some points, from just after 9pm until close to 11pm.

John Comyn, who has lived in the area all his life, said: “Most people I spoke to were local and couldn't believe what was happening. No one wanted to venture down St John's Road but we weren't going to let them ruin our street.

From then on, when anyone came towards us we told them to go back, there wasn't anything for them down here. It was fairly spontaneous but the group formed a line across the end of the road.

“People were still looking on and taking pictures but we weren't letting anyone in a mask or hood through. Whenever people tried people in the line rounded on them and they would turn back. This happened fairly regularly, in fairly small groups.”

Laurie Noble, who runs a shop on Battersea Rise, saw four of the men in the “human barrier” chase a looter away.

“There was a bloke with a mask and he had loads of handbags over his shoulder and round his neck. A bunch of blokes on Northcote Road started shouting at him and he dropped the bags. They chased him down the road. I thought 'well played to them',” she said....
Good for them I say. We can't let the looting anarchist chav scum win.
 

bb21

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Their funding is cut so they can't stay in education and jobs are being cut (or at least youth unemployment is high) so they can't go to work.

I suspect that you're talking about EMA? While it is a good idea in theory, in reality what do many pupils spend the EMA money on though? I'm sorry but ever since its introduction the EMA has been a gimmick which had been ill-thought through. They were intended for purchases of educational equipment however many surveys have shown that a significant majority of young people, especially from under-privileged backgrounds who have no aspiration to achieve anything in life, take it as £30 a week pocket money to spend as they wish. It would have been better utilised for the actual schools to decide what the money should be spent on according to curriculum needs and distribute the actual goods rather than hard cash itself.

Compulsory education to the age of 18 should have been introduced years ago to alleviate such problems however the government for years had no interest in that.

But they didn't choose their parents, did they? It's a deeper problem than that, a product of British Society.

It is. This culture of solely placing the emphasis on me, me, me started decades ago and no government has ever tried to reverse such a trend. What we're now seeing is a generation that have grown up under those influences passing these characteristics to their off-springs. Don't blame the kids. The kids can only behave as well as they have been taught how to.

Most employers seem to prefer Eastern Europeans who work long hours for the minimum wage. Labour's uncontrolled immigration policy has a lot to answer for in this regard

Yes, Labour did mess up the immigration system, however people coming to the UK from inside the EU is not something our government can control, as long as we are part of it. You're presenting two non-consequential points as if they are somewhat linked.

The whole thing is an extreme example of what I always maintain. Too many people know their rights, not their responsibilities. And a whole industry has grown up, funded ultimately by the taxpayer, to re-enforce their views.

Just listening to some woman from the Odu Dua Housing association giving her tact approval for the behaviour of these ferral scum on BBC news tonight was an eye-opener in how these people manage to keep their sense of grievance and entitlement going, whilst ignoring their responsibilities.

Nothing that is done will ever be good enough, as there is a permanent industry in creating the feeling of victimisation.

Anything bad happens - it's always someone else's fault.

The one thing that a lot of commentators have got right (but not in the way they think) is that this is society reaping what it has sown.


But not in terms of oppressing anyone (which is what the usual suspects maintain), but in terms of allowing ANYBODY to try to market themselves as a special interest group and entitled to special consideration.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and in bold is what I think hits the nail on the head regarding the current events.

seems the MET are aksing retired officers to come back and give them a hand.

I don't understand why they didn't call for reinforcement earlier. They have no control of the streets and that's plain for everyone to see. They are playing with people's livelihood and it is not surprising that a large number of people don't think that the police really care. I know that the front-line officers are doing a marvellous job, however at a strategic level this whole affair is a spectacular failure by the government and the police and shows how unprepared this country really is to handle emergency situations like this. What if a terrorist sees this opportunity and decides that London 2012 presents an ideal chance to cause havoc? Will our government be ready for what could potentially happen? From what I have seen in the last few days, I have grave concerns and strong reservations.

also it seems residents have taken up arms against these mobs:

Good on them. It's in times like these that the true community spirit is demonstrated.

I wonder if we will see the right wing paries like the BNP saying that this is all due to illegal immagrents?

My money is on this event featuring highly on their election propaganda at the next opportunity, and be used by EDL as an excuse to justify their actions.

Hariet Harman is talking sh*te about job centre closures causing all this.

Err. Anyone actually listens to her? :shock:

Shame people can't do that anymore :(


They can. Many just don't want to.

But something has to happen, the tide has to turn otherwise this country is going to be wrecked.

There will be a breaking point, the threshold when passed all communities are united to take the law into their own hands because the justice system is not doing what it should, or perceivedly so. This presents real danger and a distinct possibility of the society degenerating into chaos. I'm concerned that we're not far from that point, unless the government acts with some backbone and rule with an iron fist. It's not a question of trying to sort out afterwards and when to do it. The time is now and the yobs must not win.
 

Metroland

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Chavs (or whatever you want to call them - the name isn't important) have been slowly attacking us for years, and growing in number. They've always been disorganised and their damage sporadic - until now. Now they're literally at war with us. And it's a war that is heavily biased in their favour at present. We can't do anything, the police can't do anything. But something has to happen, the tide has to turn otherwise this country is going to be wrecked.

Quite right, rioting in Manchester, Liverpool, West Bromwich, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Gloucester, Leicester, Nottingham, Oxford, Milton Keynes and Reading last night.

The most disturbing incident is the hit and run incident in Birmingham, which I fear will lead to revenge attacks.

We have already had vigilante groups out defending their property, and I can only see this increasing.

The Government need decisive action and get a grip, else they really will start to lose control, and I'm afraid Government ministers will start needing to consider their position, their first duty is to protect the population, if they can't do that they shouldn't be in office.
 

d9009alycidon

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Do you notice that there is no Rioting at all in Scotland?

Would you go out rioting in the pelting rain....


..The Scottish Weather, Strathclyde Police's secret weapon!!! Bet the Met are praying for a few days rain.
 

Whistler40145

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I think this sham of a Government is partly to blame with all the various cuts they are making, but the individuals committing all this terrible damage & looting are probably wound up because there aren't any incentives caused by financial cuts, therefore they are taking out their anger.
 

Class172

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There are many motives that these people could have, but as my mum says, the parents are to blame for having no control over their children.
 

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The problem is I don't think they have an identifiable motive anymore. There is probably a core group who do, but the rest seem to be opportunists who are joining in with the thieving to get their hands on goods they want (tracksuits, TVs). Some are probably just doing it for a "laugh". And some are doing it because they want to feel like powerful gangsters for the night. You can throw money at trying to keep these "youths" from getting bored, but I think many aren't interested. Just my opinion after seeing the fourth night.
 

Hydro

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It's pure Mad Max mentality now. It's like everyone who lives on the edge of the law ("Chavs", if you want to call them that though I think that's a bit simplistic) has had final confirmation that they are able to do what they want. They don't have to conform to regular norms, which is why it's taken on the appearance of mass petty theft and vandalism.

A young bloke, about 17 was interviewed last night in London on the BBC. He said he hates the police, the politicians and the government. He then admitted he knew nothing about the government. His tone implied, quite obviously, that he hated authority because they didn't let him do what he wanted.

A young girl, on the "Handsworth" segment of BBC's rolling news nearly made me punch my computer screen. With the most horrific put on gangster accent, she barked to the interviewer "We hate the police because they're rude, they wonder why youth go mad, they don't respect us, when you respect us we will respect you".

It really, really smacks of these ill-educated young people being utterly consumed into a me-me-me mentality where self-entitlement rules. We're not getting what we want, so let's smash it and take it. It so happens that what they want are designer clothes, mobile phones, TV's and to burn cars.
 

chris89

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I suspect that you're talking about EMA? While it is a good idea in theory, in reality what do many pupils spend the EMA money on though? I'm sorry but ever since its introduction the EMA has been a gimmick which had been ill-thought through. They were intended for purchases of educational equipment however many surveys have shown that a significant majority of young people, especially from under-privileged backgrounds who have no aspiration to achieve anything in life, take it as £30 a week pocket money to spend as they wish. It would have been better utilised for the actual schools to decide what the money should be spent on according to curriculum needs and distribute the actual goods rather than hard cash itself.

Compulsory education to the age of 18 should have been introduced years ago to alleviate such problems however the government for years had no interest in that.

Go to disagree with about EMA as i know well for myself, my brother and my friends who were entilted for it did use it for what it was for. For me it went mostly on bus travel to get to college and back and things such as supplies for 6th form/ college what it was meant for. But then a lot did use it for other reasons and one particlar person had the nerve to keep trying to get it when he barely turned up, and tried again for the bonus you could get.

Looking at the news so far 3 murders/ deaths in B'ham not known if related yet and another person seriously injured unknown if they will survive. Hopefully will not be as much trouble tonight but really unsure about that though.

Chris
 

Mike395

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Thankful that in London (especially) and Birmingham at least, trouble seems to have stepped down a notch from the Monday night - hoping (and finding myself quite optimistic) that this downward trend in the amount of violence continues :)
 

Whistler40145

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We need to get rid of the "It's my right" Society.

I would start by bringing back the Cane in Schools, then bring back National Service, then youths wouldn't have time to be bored!
 

AlterEgo

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I'm sure the Army would love to have these little scrotes. Not.

The Army is a lean and professional body. It is just not feasible to stick everyone in the Army to sort them out. The Army is there to protect our interests and defend us; it is not a mobile prison.
 

Hydro

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Plus all the troublemakers back in the days of NS just ended up serving their NS in military glasshouses. They didn't want to be there, they didn't change and they caused as much trouble in the military as they did outside it.
 

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We do need to get rid of the 'It's my right' attitiude that is so prevalent among all sections of society. It's clear that we have been heading towards something like this for a long time. Police powers have been cut back, sentencing has become less effective, and gang culture has proliferated.

Two quotes leap out at me today. A PC said the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't (no doubt through trial by media) and a 16 year old looter has said they will continue rioting until they are caught becaue they haven't been in trouble before and nothing will happen.

The majority must now stand up and insist that discipline and responsibility is restored to society.
 

AlterEgo

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a 16 year old looter has said they will continue rioting until they are caught becaue they haven't been in trouble before and nothing will happen.

I think I heard this guy on BBC Five Live this morning. Honestly I was appalled. I am on my way to work wondering if our office has been smashed in - pictures last night showed rioting 30 yards from the front door.

This is the angriest I have ever been about society in general. It's making me old before my time, and it depresses me.
 

Greenback

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I think I heard this guy on BBC Five Live this morning. Honestly I was appalled. I am on my way to work wondering if our office has been smashed in - pictures last night showed rioting 30 yards from the front door.

This is the angriest I have ever been about society in general. It's making me old before my time, and it depresses me.

I just saw the quote on the BBC News website. I then heard the PC quoted on the TV. Both of these quotes reveal much that is wrong about society today, and depressingly it all ties in with the gradual erosion of respect for authority and each other. It's been me, me, me for too long.

I've forgotten who mentioned it earlier, but 'respect' to these scum is all about fear, not the word as most of us know it. We need a step change in our culture, or things are undoubtedly going to get worse.
 

Hydro

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I wouldn't say fear in all cases, but the majority of wanting respect seems to actually mean "let me do what I want, when I feel like it".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

The lad talking about looting until he gets caught. Little scumbag. Listen to them fall over their words and get confused when challenged about why they're doing it. From an entirely personal point of view, and it's probably not the solution, but I want to kick this little *******s head in. Reduce his punishment to a level he might have a chance of understanding.
 
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yorkie

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a 16 year old looter has said they will continue rioting until they are caught becaue they haven't been in trouble before and nothing will happen.
I think I heard this guy on BBC Five Live this morning. Honestly I was appalled. I am on my way to work wondering if our office has been smashed in - pictures last night showed rioting 30 yards from the front door.

This is the angriest I have ever been about society in general. It's making me old before my time, and it depresses me.

Here is the interview in question:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

Some (rough) quotes (they talk very quickly in chavspeak and I can't be bothered to translate it all...)

".. Why ya gonna miss this opportunity to get free stuff that's worth loadsa money?.."

"...kids don't go to college no more cos they don't get paid.."

"..I'm not really bovered I keep doin this every day til I get caught.."

"..when I get home, nothin's gonna happen ta me, I'm not gonna get grounded or shouted.. I might get shouted at, but that's it, I live with that, I keep doin it.."

"..the prisons are overcrowded, what they gonna do with me? give me an ASBO? I live with that..."
 

passmore

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I just saw the quote on the BBC News website. I then heard the PC quoted on the TV. Both of these quotes reveal much that is wrong about society today, and depressingly it all ties in with the gradual erosion of respect for authority and each other. It's been me, me, me for too long.

I've forgotten who mentioned it earlier, but 'respect' to these scum is all about fear, not the word as most of us know it. We need a step change in our culture, or things are undoubtedly going to get worse.

I think you'r reading too much into what that 16 year old said, which I have only just listened to. It struck me as the perfect example of why these riots are happening so easily: no active police intervention and therefore they have nothing to fear.

To some degree in the past, we have always had problems with a section of society who fear no-one, respect no-one and are answerable only to themselves. But I challenge anyone who says it's indicative of society as a whole. They merely represent an underclass of society who are capable of wanton destruction and no-one has been able to actively engage with them as to the root causes of their lack of respect for anyone (which is why I agree with you that it has been 'me me me for too long'). Finding the root cause of why kids like the one interviewed behave the way they do should be, IMO, the ultimate goal to prevent this underclass behaving in such a way again. But I fear that any knee-jerk decisions brought in simply to remedy this underclass will not be beneficial for a society as a whole. I shouldn't have to change my lifestyle to accommodate for some toe-rag who has no respect for anything/anyone.
 

AlterEgo

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I think you'r reading too much into what that 16 year old said, which I have only just listened to. It struck me as the perfect example of why these riots are happening so easily: no active police intervention and therefore they have nothing to fear.

The police response hasn't been as heavy handed as I'd like. I am no supporter of the police, but they're damned whatever tactics they use here.

It's too easy to blame the riots on the police or the authorities. Nobody should be on the streets with violence in mind in the first place. This is wanton thieving, vandalism, and unabashed violence. It disgusts me to the core.
 

4SRKT

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I think you'r reading too much into what that 16 year old said, which I have only just listened to. It struck me as the perfect example of why these riots are happening so easily: no active police intervention and therefore they have nothing to fear.

To some degree in the past, we have always had problems with a section of society who fear no-one, respect no-one and are answerable only to themselves. But I challenge anyone who says it's indicative of society as a whole. They merely represent an underclass of society who are capable of wanton destruction and no-one has been able to actively engage with them as to the root causes of their lack of respect for anyone (which is why I agree with you that it has been 'me me me for too long'). Finding the root cause of why kids like the one interviewed behave the way they do should be, IMO, the ultimate goal to prevent this underclass behaving in such a way again. But I fear that any knee-jerk decisions brought in simply to remedy this underclass will not be beneficial for a society as a whole. I shouldn't have to change my lifestyle to accommodate for some toe-rag who has no respect for anything/anyone.

The very people who talk about British Society being 'broken' or 'crazy' or whatever are the same wingnuts who fail/refuse to see that this problem of poorly-educated feral underclasses is one that is much worse in countries who have swallowed the whole Reaganite/Thatcherite model hook, line and sinker. Not only does right wing economics create the underclass in the first place, but offers no solutions other than 'shoot 'em' or 'incarcerate 'em' for its amelioration.

For the record, I am no bleeding heart liberal, but an old fashioned leftist who believes these people need dealing with very harshly, but that then the errors of the right wing simplistic wingnuts need to be put right. Why is it the wingnuts think that rioters spring, fully formed, from some sort of 'broken society' without seeing any connection between that state of society and the economics they support that have caused the conditions in first place? How could it be otherwise given the preeminence of these policies for the last 30+ years? This in no way exculpates the individuals concerned, but unless we want to keep on locking people up in ever increasing numbers we need to have a much more inclusive society.
 
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passmore

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The police response hasn't been as heavy handed as I'd like. I am no supporter of the police, but they're damned whatever tactics they use here.

It's too easy to blame the riots on the police or the authorities. Nobody should be on the streets with violence in mind in the first place. This is wanton thieving, vandalism, and unabashed violence. It disgusts me to the core.

The police are trained for situations like this, extreme or otherwise. To say its 'too easy to blame' is turning a blind eye to why the riots have become so widespread. They are there to deal with this head-on, not just for containment.
 

Metroland

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I think society is 'broken' because an increasing number of people do not consider others before they do things. It's all about instant personal gratification and never-mind the consequences to others for the things that are said and done.

The left and right are both to blame. The left for not championing personal responsibility, and promoting the idea the state (or someone else) will do everything. The right for believing markets are the answer to everything, where the £ is the bottom line. So it doesn't matter if an entire generation is left unemployed because it's 1p cheaper, and it doesn't matter if the media and film industry are pumping out trash full of bad language, immoral behaviour and so on, because it sells...and so on.

Most of these kids have no idea why what they are doing is wrong, and think it quite okay because 'they can get away with it'.
 
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