Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Double 323s on half-hourly Wigan North Western - Stalybridge would be a dream. A replacement station at Clifton and a new station at Droylsden could then be served half-hourly all day, offering massive capacity and convenient journey times even with the large number of stops. Long term as you say it would then go up to quarter-hourly. Clearly the demand for this sort of thing is there but we're well into wishful thinking territory sadly.

Clifton is a bit debatable as it isn't really very useful, though perhaps a development of housing could pay for that with planning gain? Agree on the rest, though, plus it could allow the Blackpools and Clitheroe to be sped up.

Long term though I do think Atherton should go to Metrolink, though, which means your proposed service would have to be the Southport, probably using 4 car BEMUs/trimodes. I don't think it would be sensible to require Southport pax to walk across Wigan for their main destination - hardly anyone actually wants to go from Southport to Wigan, they're mostly going to Manchester. Unless you are proposing that service in addition to Southport, but wouldn't that make Victoria start looking a bit Castlefieldy?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

hardly anyone actually wants to go from Southport to Wigan, they're mostly going to Manchester.

TThe 375 and 385 buses do an excellant job of transporting passengers between Southport and Wigan, especially for intermediate journeys.

 

[nilvaj395]

TThe 375 and 385 buses do an excellant job of transporting passengers between Southport and Wigan, especially for intermediate journeys.

The 375s/385s are a really well ran bus route. As you said, along the intermediate places it makes no sense to take the train compared to the bus given the indirect and longer route by train.

I dont think the routing anomaly on going from a station on the Ormskirk branch to Wigan via Liverpool or Preston has been solved.

Currently the only valid route is via Headbolt.This means any reasonable route you can take between there and Wigan on a Sunday or late evening is technically invalid, a guard probably wouldn't mind (and this was the advice given by office staff), but it's a risk.

Railway wise it could alievated with the Burscough Curves somewhat. Especially now that Wigan and Greater Manchester seem to be treating the University at Ormskirk as if it was apart of GM.

 

[Starmill]

Currently the only valid route is via Headbolt, which has obviously no evening service and no Sunday service, and neither via Preston or via Liverpool is valid on a standard walkup off peak return. This means any reasonable route you can take between there and Wigan on a Sunday is technically invalid, a guard probably wouldn't mind (and this was the advice given by office staff), but it's a risk.

Generally in that area the conductor will just accept whatever, as it's way too complex to be able to memorise what station is and isn't permitted to go particular ways, and the Headbolt Lane - Wigan Wallgate section doesn't run half the time. As long as you aren't trying to take the mick by buying a single from Croston to Rufford and trying to go via Manchester and Southport you'll be fine.

 

[nilvaj395]

Generally in that area the conductor will just accept whatever, as it's way too complex to be able to memorise what station is and isn't permitted to go particular ways, and the Headbolt Lane - Wigan Wallgate section doesn't run half the time. As long as you aren't trying to take the mick by buying a single from Croston to Rufford and trying to go via Manchester and Southport you'll be fine.

Of course, I agree to your average guard it won't be an issue. Its just amusing to turn up for a ticket between the two on a Sunday and being told that you need to chance it as it isn't technically valid. It's something you could easily put a easement in for and I wonder why they haven't yet.

I dont know if its still the same but the only other drawback of the 375/385 is the last bus from Southport is about 20:40 given the time to go to Wigan and back. What they should do is have a later service that doesn't run as far.

 

[Starmill]

Of course, I agree to your average guard it won't be an issue. Its just amusing to turn up for a ticket between the two on a Sunday and being told that you need to chance it as it isn't technically valid. It's something you could easily put a easement in for and I wonder why they haven't yet.

I dont know if its still the same but the only other drawback of the 375/385 is the last bus from Southport is about 20:40 given the time to go to Wigan and back. What they should do is have a later service that doesn't run as far.

I agree it's embarrassing and nonsensical. Same as how the machine will allow you to buy a single from Ormskirk to Preston on a Sunday but the policy technically would be to tell someone they've paid for something that doesn't exist (even though it does) in that case. Luckily the majority of staff would always allow travel in those circumstances.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I dont know if its still the same but the only other drawback of the 375/385 is the last bus from Southport is about 20:40 given the time to go to Wigan and back. What they should do is have a later service that doesn't run as far.

The 20:40 375 service runs seven days a week from Southport, calling at Ormskirk bus station at 21:22, Skelmerdale Concourse at 21:49 and Wigan bus station at 22:19.

 

[nilvaj395]

The 20:40 375 service runs seven days a week from Southport, calling at Ormskirk bus station at 21:22, Skelmerdale Concourse at 21:49 and Wigan bus station at 22:19.

Of course, I think a 21:40 and 22:40 would be helpful though too, as after 20:40 the only option to go to Skelmersdale is Merseyrail the long way around and then 310. The later ones could go only part route. But it's outside of the scope of thread

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

For one moment I thought about if the 777s are extended to Wigan why not just electrify it with OHLE from Kirkby as the height restriction is only from the other end of Wallgate, but then I realised the costs in that and how if they can't justify a station on cost grounds at Skelmersdale with battery then OHLE is equally impossible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TThe 375 and 385 buses do an excellant job of transporting passengers between Southport and Wigan, especially for intermediate journeys.

I was thinking about adding to that "and the bus is cheaper or free to passholders, and those wanting to go to Wigan rather than Manchester are probably more likely to be retired or on lower incomes" to be fair.

The overall point was though that removing through Southport to Manchester services with a walk across Wigan required would have to be a real last ditch thing if Northern ended up so short of units that there was no other option, e.g. a major fault was found with 150s and they had to be withdrawn entirely. It would be better to cut it to hourly but keep the through service than to have people walking across Wigan to reach the primary destination. There's also no point in doing it because if you're running Vic to Wigan Wallgate via Atherton you might as well just run those to Southport and/or Headbolt, you don't actually save units by running Southport separately, you might even require more doing that.

The most DMU efficient option that isn't going to cause impossible levels of uproar is probably 2 Vic-Southport via Atherton and a shuttle to Headbolt from the bay, with 2 per hour via Bolton from NW as EMUs. Or one of each Southport and Headbolt off the two Athertons, though there would be a lot of moaning if Southport went to one per hour without that being to Castlefield. (I do think one an hour to Castlefield would be more popular than two to Vic).

 

[Manutd1999]

It's a fairly minor upgrade compared to some of the works going on atm (TRU etc.) but it's still a waste of £100m+. Tough questions should be being asked of the team which planned/approved this work.

• What has changed since this scheme approved in 2021 which means we can't run the promised services? Why wasn't this envisaged at the time?
• If the capacity/rolling stock was never there, why was it signed off?
• If the capacity is still there, why aren't we running the trains?

Maybe the questions are being asked behind closed doors but it's not a great advert for the industry and for future electrification requests...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The overall point was though that removing through Southport to Manchester services with a walk across Wigan required would have to be a real last ditch thing if Northern ended up so short of units that there was no other option, e.g. a major fault was found with 150s and they had to be withdrawn entirely. It would be better to cut it to hourly but keep the through service than to have people walking across Wigan to reach the primary destination. There's also no point in doing it because if you're running Vic to Wigan Wallgate via Atherton you might as well just run those to Southport and/or Headbolt, you don't actually save units by running Southport separately, you might even require more doing that.

There are more intermediate railway stations served between Wigan and Southport (albeit more rural areas) than the number of intermediate railway stations between Wigan and Headbolt Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a fairly minor upgrade compared to some of the works going on atm (TRU etc.) but it's still a waste of £100m+. Tough questions should be being asked of the team which planned/approved this work.

• What has changed since this scheme approved in 2021 which means we can't run the promised services? Why wasn't this envisaged at the time?
• If the capacity/rolling stock was never there, why was it signed off?
• If the capacity is still there, why aren't we running the trains?

Maybe the questions are being asked behind closed doors but it's not a great advert for the industry and for future electrification requests...

It's really not. It might not be that useful now, but in 10 years it will be as it'll enable BEMUs to Southport. Decarbonisation and reduction of dependence on oil is an excellent investment, and doing it now makes it cheaper than doing it in 10 years' time.

Electrification is for life, not just for Christmas. It's for the next 100 years not the next five.

There are more intermediate railway stations served between Wigan and Southport (albeit more rural areas) than the number of intermediate railway stations between Wigan and Headbolt Lane.

Indeed so. The Headbolt-Wigan stations just aren't that well used. I don't propose that, but if Reform get in and slash the rail budget it'll probably be near the front of the queue for closure (even ahead of some more rural "lifeline" type routes as it's mostly sort of paralleled by a decent bus service on the main road) - certainly in the 1990s it felt on borrowed time.

 

[nilvaj395]

I was thinking about adding to that "and the bus is cheaper or free to passholders, and those wanting to go to Wigan rather than Manchester are probably more likely to be retired or on lower incomes" to be fair.

The most DMU efficient option that isn't going to cause impossible levels of uproar is probably 2 Vic-Southport via Atherton and a shuttle to Headbolt from the bay, with 2 per hour via Bolton from NW as EMUs. Or one of each Southport and Headbolt off the two Athertons, though there would be a lot of moaning if Southport went to one per hour without that being to Castlefield. (I do think one an hour to Castlefield would be more popular than two to Vic).

I do agree with the point about Headbolt should be done from the Bay. Southport very much deserves the priority for the direct service over Headbolt.

Besides as you said the stations on the Headbolt are not that busy at all. While some on the Southport line are very rural, the likes of Burscough, Parbold and Appley Bridge are well used.

If staffing was sorted out this would also allow an evening service without delays in Manchester affecting that branch or vice versa.

 

[Manutd1999]

It's really not. It might not be that useful now, but in 10 years it will be as it'll enable BEMUs to Southport. Decarbonisation and reduction of dependence on oil is an excellent investment, and doing it now makes it cheaper than doing it in 10 years' time.

Maybe there will be benefits in X years, but that wasn't the business case (at least not the published one). The scheme was to deliver electrified trains between Stalybridge and Wigan. 5 years later and we are still waiting - in my view that is not acceptable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why is Stalybridge seemingly always more of a preferred terminal point for cross-Manchester services than Rochdale, as both those stations are on cross-Pennine routes?

Rochdale has a DfT category rating of C2, but Stalybridge has a lower DfT category rating of D.

 

[Manutd1999]

Why is Stalybridge seemingly always more of a preferred terminal point for cross-Manchester services than Rochdale, as both those stations are on cross-Pennine routes?

I'm not sure it is? Rochdale is the best place to terminate DMUs (Blackburn, Atherton) and Stalybridge the EMUs (Wigan via Bolton, maybe Chat Moss). IMO both should be used as intensively as possible so that Victoria can be used as a through station.

 

[nilvaj395]

Echoing Manutd1999s point about the DMU/EMU, but maybe does anything about Rochdale also getting trams have to do with it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure it is? Rochdale is the best place to terminate DMUs (Blackburn, Atherton) and Stalybridge the EMUs (Wigan via Bolton, maybe Chat Moss). IMO both should be used as intensively as possible so that Victoria can be used as a through station.

Rochdale once had four through platforms and four bay platforms. At the age of 80, many the time that I have travelled from Liverpool to Rochdale on the line through Bolton and Bury.

 

[nilvaj395]

I wouldn't say that Stalybridge is more heavily used (by Northern trains) either, it only gets one terminating train an hour to/from Southport, whereas I am checking Rochdale and see two trains per hour starting there. It makes sense, given that more services are DMUs as opposed to EMUs and how busy the route to and from Stalybridge is already.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Echoing Manutd1999s point about the DMU/EMU, but maybe does anything about Rochdale also getting trams have to do with it?

None of the Metrolink trams serve areas exterior to the Greater Manchester boundary.

 

[nilvaj395]

None of the Metrolink trams serve areas exterior to the Greater Manchester boundary.

You're right, I am thinking more so in terms of taking pressure off the Manchester demand in regards to your original point. Ashton-under-Lyne also gets Metrolink to be fair but Stalybridge does not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

In the case of the 769's (unless they've been set swapped) it's probably for the best to terminate them at Stalybridge, so there is less chances of them breaking down

 

[Gricer99]

This is waiting for the two new turnback sidings near Salford Central and one near Brewery Jn, so it will probably be May 2027.

Please explain..as its a through service tk Stalybridge, why is the service dependant onthie sidings being built?

 

[cle]

I would think that each bay should turn certainly 3tph but preferably an even set of paired 2tphs, 4 total. EMU-wise, the Chat Moss service to Wigan NW? Or a reinstated Vic-Preston stopper at 2tph.

 

[Starmill]

Please explain..as its a through service tk Stalybridge, why is the service dependant onthie sidings being built?

The slots through central Manchester need to be changed to make it work, but unfortunately they can't be until it's agreed across all of the stakeholders. That agreement isn't going to be forthcoming until after there's clarity on entry into service dates for the new platform at Salford Crescent and turnback sidings.

 

[polskism]

I think the intermediate stations between Headbolt Lane and Wigan would probably see much higher use if the service were run as a shuttle between Wigan and Headbolt Lane with at least 2 tph. There’s quite a bit of demand between the intermediate stations (Pemberton/Orrell/Upholland/Rainford) for connections at Headbolt Lane onto Merseyrail, but most people don’t use it at the moment because the service is too infrequent to be convenient.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The slots through central Manchester need to be changed to make it work, but unfortunately they can't be until it's agreed across all of the stakeholders. That agreement isn't going to be forthcoming until after there's clarity on entry into service dates for the new platform at Salford Crescent and turnback sidings.

So based on that information, what time period looks the most likely for commencement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the intermediate stations between Headbolt Lane and Wigan would probably see much higher use if the service were run as a shuttle between Wigan and Headbolt Lane with at least 2 tph. There’s quite a bit of demand between the intermediate stations (Pemberton/Orrell/Upholland/Rainford) for connections at Headbolt Lane onto Merseyrail, but most people don’t use it at the moment because the service is too infrequent to be convenient.

I think it would be fairly well used were it part of Merseyrail, as it would become the main Liverpool to Wigan route, as it used to be. Rainford would also likely grow with housing developments for Liverpool commuters, and Upholland would become a decent Skem Parkway. I'm not sure an upgraded diesel operation would make that much difference, connecting it direct to Liverpool would have more effect.

It's such a thing of regret that Headbolt has been built with the lines isolated, thus making that expensive.

I suspect the main issue here is that it runs across three authorities - Merseytravel, TfGM and Lancashire. Thus a lot of coordination would be required to get it the relatively small amount of funding that would be required to extend Merseyrail battery services twice an hour into the bay at Wallgate. Because that would make many things so much easier by getting everything into a neat 2tph pattern - 2 EMU Manchester-NW via Bolton, 2 DMU Manchester-Southport via Atherton, 2 Liverpool-Wigan - the benefits are significant and the actual operating cost once done likely wouldn't be swingeing compared to now. It just needs the work at Headbolt, some station improvements, staff training and a couple more battery 777s while the follow on options remain open.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Why is Stalybridge seemingly always more of a preferred terminal point for cross-Manchester services than Rochdale, as both those stations are on cross-Pennine routes?

Rochdale has a DfT category rating of C2, but Stalybridge has a lower DfT category rating of D.

I'm not sure it is? Rochdale is the best place to terminate DMUs (Blackburn, Atherton) and Stalybridge the EMUs (Wigan via Bolton, maybe Chat Moss). IMO both should be used as intensively as possible so that Victoria can be used as a through station.

In my dreams, Manchester to Rochdale gets electrified so that Vic can be used as a through station and we get electric service all the way.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suspect the main issue here is that it runs across three authorities - Merseytravel, TfGM and Lancashire. Thus a lot of coordination would be required to get it the relatively small amount of funding that would be required to extend Merseyrail battery services twice an hour into the bay at Wallgate. Because that would make many things so much easier by getting everything into a neat 2tph pattern - 2 EMU Manchester-NW via Bolton, 2 DMU Manchester-Southport via Atherton, 2 Liverpool-Wigan - the benefits are significant and the actual operating cost once done likely wouldn't be swingeing compared to now. It just needs the work at Headbolt, some station improvements, staff training and a couple more battery 777s while the follow on options remain open.

One only has to recall all the wonderful aspirations regarding a new station in Skelmersdale with its connections to the line in question that have seen the light of day in postings on websites from "armchair economists" who are convinced that their knowledge on economic matters is far greater than the officials who serve on local authorities and then recall the last official statement made at the time about that matter and the decision reached by them.

 

[Starmill]

I think it would be fairly well used were it part of Merseyrail, as it would become the main Liverpool to Wigan route, as it used to be. Rainford would also likely grow with housing developments for Liverpool commuters, and Upholland would become a decent Skem Parkway. I'm not sure an upgraded diesel operation would make that much difference, connecting it direct to Liverpool would have more effect.

It's such a thing of regret that Headbolt has been built with the lines isolated, thus making that expensive.

I suspect the main issue here is that it runs across three authorities - Merseytravel, TfGM and Lancashire. Thus a lot of coordination would be required to get it the relatively small amount of funding that would be required to extend Merseyrail battery services twice an hour into the bay at Wallgate. Because that would make many things so much easier by getting everything into a neat 2tph pattern - 2 EMU Manchester-NW via Bolton, 2 DMU Manchester-Southport via Atherton, 2 Liverpool-Wigan - the benefits are significant and the actual operating cost once done likely wouldn't be swingeing compared to now. It just needs the work at Headbolt, some station improvements, staff training and a couple more battery 777s while the follow on options remain open.

It wouldn't have been possible to physically connect the two lines because that would require resignalling to Rainford and probably the closure of the box. Yes, it would have been possible to physically connect them and then stick the buffers on, but that would have required the footbridge with lifts to be added to Headbolt Lane now. The design is the next best thing with provision to turn it into a through station later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jan 2026 ==

So based on that information, what time period looks the most likely for commencement.

One of the timetable changes in 2027.