Stockport and TfGM Plans for the Future

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I notice that you made no reply to the comment that I made about the poor siting of Denton railway station.

 

[Grimsby town]

I notice that you made no reply to the comment that I made about the poor siting of Denton railway station.

I agree that it's not a brilliant site for a station. As the station will be completely rebuilt in any scheme it doesn't have to be sited at its current location. A stop at Dane Bank might make sense for example or it may be possible to redevelop some of the industrial premises into houses, car park, and a bus facility.

Potential stations at Heaton Norris (Manchester Road), Reddish (current station site), and Audenshaw (Audenshaw Road) are all centred in residential communities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was not so very long ago that Middleton, a town with a larger population than Denton, featured in many of Mayor Andy Burnham's statements of Metrolink line expansion and in those days, no mention was ever made of Denton.

Has anyone been given any idea of the year(s) when both Middleton and Denton will be in receipt of full operational tram services.

Why is there a need for Ashton-under- Lyne to have two different tram routes?

 

[mangad]

It was not so very long ago that Middleton, a town with a larger population than Denton, featured in many of Mayor Andy Burnham's statements of Metrolink line expansion and in those days, no mention was ever made of Denton.

Manchester Evening News article from 2024. Scroll through it and you'll see a draft network map showing an option of a tram line to Middleton as an option of tram-train through Reddish and Denton. It's not brand new. It's been part of the thinking for a while.

Why is there a need for Ashton-under- Lyne to have two different tram routes?

Why is there a need for Ashton-under-Lyne to have both train and tram routes?
Why is there a need for Rochdale to have trams and trains?
Why is there a need for there to be trams, trains and buses to the airport?
Why is there a need for anywhere to have more than one of anything?

Or to put it into a completely different perspective, who says it's a different tram route, and not simply an extension of the existing one?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or to put it into a completely different perspective, who says it's a different tram route, and not simply an extension of the existing one?

The existing route is from Eccles-Manchester- Ashton-under-Lyne, so are you proposing an Eccles-Manchester-Ashton-under-Lyne-Denton- Stockport tram route from what I understand you say above?

 

[Grimsby town]

Manchester Evening News article from 2024. Scroll through it and you'll see a draft network map showing an option of a tram line to Middleton as an option of tram-train through Reddish and Denton. It's not brand new. It's been part of the thinking for a while.

Yes both proposals have been around for years, as you correctly say. I worked on a study in 2018 (I think) that looked at tram options around Stockport which included the Denton line.

Has anyone been given any idea of the year(s) when both Middleton and Denton will be in receipt of full operational tram services.

I assume TfGM have some idea of how they'll sequence new tram lines but it's unlikely to be developed before 2035 because Stockport to Didsbury will be developed first and it will likely require tram trains which won't be available until after the initial Heywood to Oldham pathfinder project.

That's one of the reason I find these kind of conversations frustrating. We're not talking about the tram line appearing today, we're talking about 10 years+ when Stockport will be more akin to Salford Quays in terms of leisure and population density, possibly even jobs.

Why is there a need for Ashton-under- Lyne to have two different tram routes?

I feel like I've answered this repeatedly but I'll summarise:

• Reliability - provide an alternative route should the city centre tram be unavailable short-term (e.g. car crash) or long-term (Piccadilly station redevelopment)
• Improved access to the national rail network. It will be quicker via Stockport than going to Piccadilly
• Provide rapid transit services to new areas like Denton, Audenshaw, Reddish
• Encourage development in Ashton by providing better connectivity to more places. It's unlikely people will choose to move their if not and it will continue to be very deprived.

 

[mangad]

The existing route is from Eccles-Manchester- Ashton-under-Lyne, so are you proposing an Eccles-Manchester-Ashton-under-Lyne-Denton- Stockport tram route from what I understand you say above?

The current route is that. Will it remain thus forever? There is nothing to stop a big recast and reorg of routes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The current route is that. Will it remain thus forever? There is nothing to stop a big recast and reorg of routes.

Surely TfGM will not wish to alter the part of the existing Metrolink route that serves the areas of Ashton-under-Lyne-Audenshaw-Droylsden-Clayton-Northern Quarter-Manchester.

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I assume TfGM have some idea of how they'll sequence new tram lines but it's unlikely to be developed before 2035 because Stockport to Didsbury will be developed first.

In 2035, if I am still on this website, I will have celebrated my 90th birthday.

Is the mention of 2035 a "cunning plan" to ensure that this thread runs for many years to come...

 

[The Pelican]

The obvious plan to me would be to build a Stockport-(street running)- Heaton Norris junction-Audenshaw tram line, where it would join the existing Ashton line. The line from Stockport could then be extended from Ashton to Oldham. This would contain a lot of the easier parts of an orbital metrolink line. At the same time, the Ashton line from the city center could be extended to Stalybridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The obvious plan to me would be to build a Stockport-(street running)- Heaton Norris junction-Audenshaw tram line, where it would join the existing Ashton line. The line from Stockport could then be extended from Ashton to Oldham. This would contain a lot of the easier parts of an orbital metrolink line. At the same time, the Ashton line from the city center could be extended to Stalybridge.

In the very first posting of this thread, the Roger Farnworth commentary clearly states that under The Outline Strategy (4), the matter of the onward extension to Denton is not part of the core proposals.

 

[Chester1]

In 2035, if I am still on this website, I will have celebrated my 90th birthday.

Is the mention of 2035 a "cunning plan" to ensure that this thread runs for many years to come...

I think most of us hope you will be on this website in 2035! These additional lines keep getting pushed never get started. I suspect the Middleton line study produced a terrible BCR and it has been dropped quietly. A line between Stockport and Ashton won't be much better value. East Didsbury to Stockport is a bit different because it was in the "big bang" plan and then removed by Alistair Darling in 2005. It won't have a great BCR but not a bad one either. Trafford Park justified a similar service level but became reality because the business and landowners paid £160 million out of £350 million cost.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One interesting aspect of a completed East Didsbury to Stockport line extension is that it will give a fast connection between Chorlton and Stockport town centres.

 

[Chester1]

One interesting aspect of a completed East Didsbury to Stockport line extension is that it will give a fast connection between Chorlton and Stockport town centres.

Yes it would be the first Metrolink extension based primarily on orbital passenger flows. The Airport line had a significant emphasis on serving the airport but providing a link to the city centre for intermediate stops was also crucial. I can't see the extension from East Disbury justifying more than 5tph of single units though. It has a marginal business case without the external funding of Eccles and Trafford Park (both served by single trams 5tph). The Eccles line had a huge contribution from the EU (it was built 5 years before the eastern expansion of the EU in 2004). The Trafford Park line was nearly half paid for by private sector.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Evening News article from 2024. Scroll through it and you'll see a draft network map showing an option of a tram line to Middleton as an option of tram-train through Reddish and Denton.

That being the same Manchester Evening News who, at the time of the Strangeways prison riot, carried a totally fallacious front page banner headline.....""20 Dead"....

Articles in newspapers are no guarantee of what will eventually occur. One example that I remember from at least sixty years ago went in great detail and included a line map drawing of a rather unusual mode of transport from Langley in Middleton to Manchester Airport and also there was much in the form of press speculation that ran rife about the "Pic-Vic" underground rail tunnel

 

[daodao]

Yes it would be the first Metrolink extension based primarily on orbital passenger flows. The Airport line had a significant emphasis on serving the airport but providing a link to the city centre for intermediate stops was also crucial. I can't see the extension from East Disbury justifying more than 5tph of single units though. It has a marginal business case without the external funding of Eccles and Trafford Park (both served by single trams 5tph). The Eccles line had a huge contribution from the EU (it was built 5 years before the eastern expansion of the EU in 2004). The Trafford Park line was nearly half paid for by private sector.

Orbital passenger flows in Greater Manchester are unlikely to generate traffic demand exceeding a double-deck bus service running 5 tph, so the case for building Metrolink lines on such routes is dubious. There are still heavy rail routes into central Manchester ripe for Metrolink conversion, in particular those via Reddish to Marple Rose Hill (part of the original plan in the mid 1980s) and the Atherton line.

 

[TrainTraveler]

As far as the Atherton is concerned "tram conversion" for the guided busway (itself based on an old rail line) wouldn't be a bad idea.

The rail line would benefit from a more frequent service but I'm not convinced that "tram conversion" is needed.

From what I recall of the guided busway section there is potential for housing on the route (helping to justify it).

The real enabler of much Manchester transport change would be an "Manchester Crossrail" joining south to North West rail lines which would enable a "recast" of the train services.

It would probably need to be more of a "Thameslink" than "Crossrail" in terms of variety of endpoints.

As with Crossrail, the concept has been around for a long time but with Transpennine Route upgrades progressing, it's the obvious next step.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The real enabler of much Manchester transport change would be an "Manchester Crossrail" joining south to North West rail lines which would enable a "recast" of the train services.

I have often travelled from Heald Green to Preston on the Northern service to Blackpool, which geographically meets the "South to North West" requirement stated above.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Are you also having in mind that there may be a master-plan yet to be launched where train and bus fares would be equalised and the train service frequency would be increased to the same as the bus services.

The direct 330 bus service is well used by passengers in Woodley, Hyde (a town with a modern bus station) and Dukinfield, with no need to change. How would current 330 bus passengers in those areas benefit from your aspirational train service?

You use the word "orbital", but surely that is exactly what the M60 does, with its links to the M56, M62 and M67.

I am aware of Burnham's plans for fare reform in GM. They are welcome and will improve the utility of multi-modal travel as an option all over GM.
Unfortunately, there aren't any major improvements to Piccadilly's capacity planned to open in the next 5 years that I'm aware of, so the interchange capacity issues will still exist (and it therefore makes sense to divert orbital journeys on orbital routes).
The 330 is useful for intermediate journeys via Hyde and Dukinfield, I totally agree, but places like Reddish Vale, Audenshaw, Denton and Dane Bank don't have such good connectivity.

Denton in particular would be a great park and ride station for not just the surrounding towns, but a huge swathe of east Manchester and many destinations reachable by the M60, in addition to its role in serving local residents (especially if the TfGM rail aspiration for a Stockport to Manchester Airport tram train went ahead).
There's lots of brownfield housing sites close to the line, which could be allocated for medium to high-density residential schemes to contribute to GM's housing targets. This is particularly useful for Stockport, otherwise they will have to allocate greenfield land in other areas of the borough to satisfy their contribution requirements (which has already caused big arguments with Greater Manchester Combined Authority a couple of years ago!)

People living in Hyde and Woodley already have good quality rail connections (with the potential for the Marple Rose Hill line to be converted to tram-train and extended to High Lane for an interchange with services to Stockport/Buxton), so the need to include them in a Stockport to Ashton tram-train route isn't so pressing.

The M60's severe congestion issues is partly why this is needed.
In a world where the M60 was less congested, an express bus with bus priority measures linking into interchanges with local transport at each junction would be a decent idea, but sadly the horse has bolted on that one; I believe another member mentioned that it can take up to 50 mins in peak congestion to do the approx. 8 miles from Stockport to Ashton!

Having built the new bus station with provision for a terminal Metrolink section, surely having reached that point, there are many bus stances there from which onward travel can be reached. Rochdale Interchange is a very good example of that.

I agree that is possible for residents of some of the Stockport suburban area (e.g. Heaviley/Edgeley/Adswood) who want to travel towards Didsbury/Old Trafford/Chorlton etc., but TfGM/Stockport Met have a long-term aspiration for a tram through to Offerton, I think mostly for regeneration purposes and they have the right to pursue such a course of action.

The Rochdale model you give as an example mostly provides connecting buses to low density suburbs within a few miles of Rochdale.
The 464 to Bacup/Whitworth/Waterfoot/Rawtenstall (and on to Accrington, but that already has a faster direct rail connection to Rochdale) is the exception, but Rossendale is another good example of a largish conurbation with poor transport links hindering regeneration, and a planned link from Rawtenstall into GM that would also serve Bacup/Whitworth/Waterfoot with a reasonably short shuttle time is being actively developed by Rossendale Borough Council and their partners.

Whereas a tram train would likely originate from Stockport railway station and follow the route through Heaton Norris onto the Stockport to Ashton line, designed as a key faster section of an orbital GM network that will not just provide connectivity to individual areas, but relieve the M60 and perhaps provide a Man Airport/HS2 connection in the longer term with the planned Stockport - Man Airport tram train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Rochdale model you give as an example mostly provides connecting buses to low density suburbs within a few miles of Rochdale.
The 464 to Bacup/Whitworth/Waterfoot/Rawtenstall (and on to Accrington, but that already has a faster direct rail connection to Rochdale) is the exception, but Rossendale is another good example of a largish conurbation with poor transport links hindering regeneration, and a planned link from Rawtenstall into GM that would also serve Bacup/Whitworth/Waterfoot with a reasonably short shuttle time is being actively developed by Rossendale Borough Council and their partners.

Rochdale Interchange not only has local area bus services, but services that serve Manchester via Middleton, Bolton via Bury, Ashton-under-Lyne via Oldham plus two routes into West Yorkshire, one via Littleborough, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, the other through Ripponden and Sowerby Bridge.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Rochdale Interchange not only has local area bus services, but services that serve Manchester via Middleton, Bolton via Bury, Ashton-under-Lyne via Oldham plus two routes into West Yorkshire, one via Littleborough, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge, the other through Ripponden and Sowerby Bridge.

People are unlikely to be feeding into the tram network from most of those locations though, it makes any onward journey significantly slower if you're already over a few miles away from Rochdale from most destinations that you mention - Rochdale already has direct services to Manchester/Littleborough/Todmorden/Hebden Bridge/Sowerby Bridge along the Calder Valley Line, and most people from Middleton would be aiming to join the Metrolink network at Bowker Vale.
Even Ripponden will be feeding into its nearest railhead, instead of using Rochdale as a railhead.

You wouldn't transfer onto an Ashton bus in Rochdale as it is significantly faster to take the tram into Oldham and change there (the buses to Ashton stop adjacent to Oldham King St tram stop).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You wouldn't transfer onto an Ashton bus in Rochdale as it is significantly faster to take the tram into Oldham and change there (the buses to Ashton stop adjacent to Oldham King St tram stop).

At this moment in time, allowing for the fact that bus fares in The Land of the Bee are capped at £2.00, which would be the price of a direct Rochdale to Ashton-under-Lyne bus journey on the 409 service, what would the same journey cost using the tram and bus option that you mention above?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2025 ==

Even Ripponden will be feeding into its nearest railhead, instead of using Rochdale as a railhead.

Put that option to a non car owing resident in either Ripponden or Rishworth who is reliant upon public transport and what would be the alternative railhead to those two settlements and what would be the service frequency of the bus route they would need to take to the said railhead from their towns.

 

[AlastairFraser]

At this moment in time, allowing for the fact that bus fares in The Land of the Bee are capped at £2.00, which would be the price of a direct Rochdale to Ashton-under-Lyne bus journey on the 409 service, what would the same journey cost using the tram and bus option that you mention above?

Currently it would cost you £4.40, but that is due to change soon with multimodal journeys being integrated into the Bee Network fare system.

Put that option to a non car owing resident in either Ripponden or Rishworth who is reliant upon public transport and what would be the alternative railhead to those two settlements and what would be the service frequency of the bus route they would need to take to the said railhead from their towns.

For Ripponden, the same bus route that leads to Rochdale passes Littleborough railway station approximately 15 mins earlier, where interchange can be made onto direct railway services to Manchester, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn and many other destinations.

For Rishworth village itself, it is only served by a direct route to Halifax via Sowerby Bridge station, so Sowerby Bridge would be the most convenient railhead at a maximum of 20 minutes on the bus from Rishworth (unless you mean Rishworth Moor - in which case, Littleborough would be the most convenient railhead again).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Currently it would cost you £4.40, but that is due to change soon with multimodal journeys being integrated into the Bee Network fare system.

Thanks for that information. How soon will these multimodal journey fare prices be introduced by the Bee Network and will journey makers from outside the Bee Network boundary into the central core benefit accordingly?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Thanks for that information. How soon will these multimodal journey fare prices be introduced by the Bee Network and will journey makers from outside the Bee Network boundary into the central core benefit accordingly?

1). According to this article (https://news.tfgm.com/press-release...o-bring-trains-into-the-bee-network-from-2026), December 2026.
2.) I don't think any of the surrounding counties will be included, unless a deal is made by the local authorities with TfGM.
Lancashire is going through the process of reforming local government, where a new local government structure including an overarching combined authority with mayor I believe, so a negotiated deal might become much easier.
With the other surrounding authorities, I'm not sure if anything is planned yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lancashire is going through the process of reforming local government, where a new local government structure including an overarching combined authority with mayor I believe, so a negotiated deal might become much easier.
With the other surrounding authorities, I'm not sure if anything is planned yet.

I understand from an old friend in the Leyland area that Lancashire County Council is now governed by a different party since the last Local County Council/ Authority elections and do wonder if their views on transportation matters are somewhat different to that of the previous party in power.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I understand from an old friend in the Leyland area that Lancashire County Council is now governed by a different party since the last Local County Council/ Authority elections and do wonder if their views on transportation matters are somewhat different to that of the previous party in power.

Without going too far off topic, Lancashire County Council is due to be abolished soon.
The successor authorities are due to receive more devolved power from central government as part of the reform.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to this article (https://news.tfgm.com/press-release...o-bring-trains-into-the-bee-network-from-2026), December 2026.

We were discussing buses and trams (not trains) on journeys between Ashton and Rochdale and it would appear that a split bus and tram single journey as suggested would cost £2.40 more than a direct 409 bus service on each journey travelled, which is something to bear in mind and many people would set off earlier to make such a saving with the benefit of not having to change and not knowing how long to wait for the tram arrival until the tram stop is reached.

 

[AlastairFraser]

We were discussing buses and trams (not trains) on journeys between Ashton and Rochdale and it would appear that a split bus and tram single journey as suggested would cost £2.40 more than a direct 409 bus service on each journey travelled, which is something to bear in mind and many people would set off earlier to make such a saving with the benefit of not having to change and not knowing how long to wait for the tram arrival until the tram stop is reached.

Only until the integrated prices kick in, and then a bus + tram journey may well be the same price as a direct bus journey.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Only until the integrated prices kick in, and then a bus + tram journey may well be the same price as a direct bus journey.

In relation to such a stated scenario, surely such a fare structure would have seriously detrimental implications for the annual revenue generated by the tram services, growing steadily worse when moving from tram zones 2, 3 and 4 in particular or will such a new style fare system see the end of the zoning system of the Metrolink

 

[AlastairFraser]

In relation to such a stated scenario, surely such a fare structure would have seriously detrimental implications for the annual revenue generated by the tram services, growing steadily worse when moving from tram zones 2, 3 and 4 in particular or will such a new style fare system see the end of the zoning system of the Metrolink

I think the zoning system will change with Metrolink, and any financial losses will probably be offset by increased patronage as more people view the bus+tram/train connections as a viable option, instead of defaulting to car-based travel.