Stockport and TfGM Plans for the Future

[rogerfarnworth]

Stockport’s 21st Century Trams and Transport for Greater Manchester’s Plans for the Future.​

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has indicated that it is considering a plan to extending the already proposed East Finsbury to Stockport extension of the Metrolink tram network. The extension would utilise the underused railway line between Stockport and Denton.

Talk is of utilising tram-train technology on this possible new extension.

Stockport’s 21st Century Trams and Transport for Greater Manchester’s Plans for the Future.

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has indicated that it is considering a plan to extending the already proposed East Didsbury to Stockport extension of the Metrolink tram network. The extensi…

rogerfarnworth.com

 

[Trainguy34]

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has indicated that it is considering a plan to extending the already proposed East Finsbury to Stockport extension of the Metrolink tram network.

I think a long distance train would be better then a tram for that...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is there any actual change here or are they just saying "we want to do this" for the 10th time?

 

[rogerfarnworth]

I think a long distance train would be better then a tram for that...

Thanks for pointing that out! ... East Didsbury!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==

New money this year and a new consultation about plans is underway. ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

New money this year and a new consultation about plans is underway. ...

Is the money intended to pay for the review plan or for full completion of the line extension from East Didsbury to Stockport?

 

[rogerfarnworth]

The new money is £2.5 billion for the whole urban area. At the moment the Stockport link appears to be more than just a desire. I have tried to highlight in the linked article what the present situation is. There is a consultation underway now which closes in March. I have provided links to the paperwork associated with the consultation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How much in the way of railfreight services currently make use of the stated "underused line" through Denton?

 

[jp4712]

How much in the way of railfreight services currently make use of the stated "underused line" through Denton?

Taking last Monday as a random sample, 20 freight services went through Denton in the 24 hours. There were many more paths that weren’t used.

 

[Killingworth]

The ideas aren't wrong but may not stand close examination of an OS map to see what obstructs the long closed parts of the old railways. Nor what runs on the lines that remain actively open, including freight. That should also include regular use for diversions and with aspirations for additional longer distance services, e.g. options for a 3rd hourly fast Manchester - Sheffield path.

 

[rogerfarnworth]

Not knowing the answer about current freight usage, I asked Google's AI for comment. This was the response. ....

When new tram-trains use the Stockport-Denton line, freight movements will likely continue alongside them, but with managed timetables to balance both services, requiring coordination between Network Rail (freight/mainline) and Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM/trams), as it's a shared track system where tram-trains run on both street tracks and mainline railways, potentially limiting heavy freight times or requiring careful scheduling to avoid conflicts, with the overall goal to enhance connectivity.

The plan involves integrating tram-trains (like those in Germany's Karlsruhe model) onto existing mainline tracks, meaning freight trains will still use parts of the route, especially connecting to major networks.

• Freight trains operate on fixed, often overnight, schedules. Tram-trains will run more frequently during the day, so freight paths will need to be allocated during off-peak periods or overnight to minimize disruption.
• The existing railway infrastructure (tracks, signalling) supports both freight and passenger trains, but upgrades might be needed for high-frequency tram-trains.
• Heavy, slow freight trains can impede faster, more frequent tram-trains, necessitating smart timetable management and potential line speed adjustments.
• The line, connecting Guide Bridge, Denton, Reddish, and Stockport, is seen as crucial for future connectivity, suggesting significant investment to balance all users.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since the Sheffield to Rotherham tram-train trials were held quite some years ago, have any orders for a fleet of these units been placed by any operating company in the UK or in the process of being placed?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Since the Sheffield to Rotherham tram-train trials were held quite some years ago, have any orders for a fleet of these units been placed by any operating company in the UK or in the process of being placed?

Yes, TfW already have their 398s on depot (not yet in service but have been on test runs)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Stockport’s 21st Century Trams and Transport for Greater Manchester’s Plans for the Future.​

Talk is of utilising tram-train technology on this possible new extension.

Stockport’s 21st Century Trams and Transport for Greater Manchester’s Plans for the Future.

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has indicated that it is considering a plan to extending the already proposed East Didsbury to Stockport extension of the Metrolink tram network. The extensi…

rogerfarnworth.com

I doubt East Didsbury to Stockport itself will use tram trains, the old alignment is at ground level in the Mersey valley and will likely pass through Stockport bus station (where provision has been made for a future tram stop) to Offerton.
The tram-train section is likely to be Stockport to Ashton under Lyne via Denton, as mentioned above.

 

[The Pelican]

Past Skyscrapercity discussions suggested that East Didsbury to Stockport could be via either a combination of former railway line and street running or a combination of former railway line and tram-train. The former always made the most sense to me- Stockport might become a significant network hub, so it's best to be able to use any of the existing tram network on it.

Stockport seemed to have some very ambitious plans for tram trains a while ago, but perhaps thought that they were a cheap, rather than an expensive, way of providing a railway service. After the costs for the Sheffield-Rotherham tram train came through, I think Ian Walmsley suggested in Modern Railways that it would be cheaper to have a double track line with one tram and one train line in most cases. This might be particularly true for the Denton line, where the heavy rail side might mainly act as a diversionary route.

Better interchanges might also help- Stockport to the airport was suggested as a tram-train, would be useful, but seems hard to provide cheaply, vs a change at East Didsbury, which could be rebuilt nearer where the lines cross.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Past Skyscrapercity discussions suggested that East Didsbury to Stockport could be via either a combination of former railway line and street running or a combination of former railway line and tram-train. The former always made the most sense to me- Stockport might become a significant network hub, so it's best to be able to use any of the existing tram network on it.

Stockport seemed to have some very ambitious plans for tram trains a while ago, but perhaps thought that they were a cheap, rather than an expensive, way of providing a railway service. After the costs for the Sheffield-Rotherham tram train came through, I think Ian Walmsley suggested in Modern Railways that it would be cheaper to have a double track line with one tram and one train line in most cases. This might be particularly true for the Denton line, where the heavy rail side might mainly act as a diversionary route.

Better interchanges might also help- Stockport to the airport was suggested as a tram-train, would be useful, but seems hard to provide cheaply, vs a change at East Didsbury, which could be rebuilt nearer where the lines cross.

I think the current TfGM plans run it at street level into Stockport, any rail based option for the East Didsbury extension would require getting from Parrs Wood to Cheadle to join the railway there - no easy feat.

In the long term, the Stockport plans involving tram trains from Hazel Grove to Cheadle (I think) and Stockport to the Airport on top of Stockport to Ashton may work out.
The single track suggestion on the Denton line isn't a bad idea at all, it already works reasonably well between Navigation Road and Altrincham.

Re the East Didsbury Interchange, I don't even think you'd need to rebuild East Didsbury in a different location.
It may be worth pursuing a footbridge with stairs and a lift that crosses Kingsway from East Didsbury Metrolink, skirts Tesco car park then crosses Wilmslow Road and connects to East Didsbury southbound platform level (with stairs/lifts again if possible just after the Wilmslow Road crossing, so those returning from the airport can access the northbound platform.

You may also be able to build this as a subway, depending on whether you can fit a subway entrance in on the east side of East Didsbury station and pipe locations etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Talking of public transport from Stockport to Denton, is there an unmet capacity demand on that and one at a level that the Bee Network currently do not provide by their bus network routes?

I have travelled on buses at different times of the day from Stockport to Denton and there is no comparison whatsoever with the bus frequencies and bus loadings on the service 330 which is routed Stockport-Hyde-Ashton-under-Lyne.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Talking of public transport from Stockport to Denton, is there an unmet capacity demand on that and one at a level that the Bee Network currently do not provide by their bus network routes?

I have travelled on buses at different times of the day from Stockport to Denton and there is no comparison whatsoever with the bus frequencies and bus loadings on the service 330 which is routed Stockport-Hyde-Ashton-under-Lyne.

The main advantage would be speed-based.
Currently the 330 bus takes around 50 mins Stockport to Ashton, train changing at Piccadilly and Stalybridge or Piccadilly and Victoria via the Ordsall Chord/tram (depending on time of departure from Stockport) is around 20 mins faster.
Driving from Stockport to Ashton only takes around 20-25 mins at worst, so the bus is just not competitive.
With the congestion on the M60 and Piccadilly passenger levels nearing capacity at peak times (especially P13/P14), it's worth developing orbital options in my humble options, not to mention giving people living in places like Reddish Vale, Audenshaw and Denton better transport options linking into hubs like Stockport for intercity and regional services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The main advantage would be speed-based.
Currently the 330 bus takes around 50 mins Stockport to Ashton, train changing at Piccadilly and Stalybridge or Piccadilly and Victoria via the Ordsall Chord/tram (depending on time of departure from Stockport) is around 20 mins faster.
Driving from Stockport to Ashton only takes around 20-25 mins at worst, so the bus is just not competitive.
With the congestion on the M60 and Piccadilly passenger levels nearing capacity at peak times (especially P13/P14), it's worth developing orbital options in my humble options, not to mention giving people living in places like Reddish Vale, Audenshaw and Denton better transport options linking into hubs like Stockport for intercity and regional services.

Are you also having in mind that there may be a master-plan yet to be launched where train and bus fares would be equalised and the train service frequency would be increased to the same as the bus services.

The direct 330 bus service is well used by passengers in Woodley, Hyde (a town with a modern bus station) and Dukinfield, with no need to change. How would current 330 bus passengers in those areas benefit from your aspirational train service?

You use the word "orbital", but surely that is exactly what the M60 does, with its links to the M56, M62 and M67.

 

[Geeves]

Id be interested to see the route it takes once it leaves the bus station to gain access to said line, I guess along the pedestrianized 'Great Underbank' and then the climb up Lancashire Hill and Manchester Road.

The whole issue with passenger trains currently is that the junction is too busy at Heaton Norris so to make it work Metrolink would need its own route that avoids that Junction entirely, so there's a fair bit of expense there before you even start on the railway line to Stalybridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I doubt East Didsbury to Stockport itself will use tram trains, the old alignment is at ground level in the Mersey valley and will likely pass through Stockport bus station (where provision has been made for a future tram stop) to Offerton.
The tram-train section is likely to be Stockport to Ashton under Lyne via Denton, as mentioned above.

Having built the new bus station with provision for a terminal Metrolink section, surely having reached that point, there are many bus stances there from which onward travel can be reached. Rochdale Interchange is a very good example of that.

 

[mangad]

If you ever look at the Manchester Evening News website comments about trams going to Stockport there's a regular theme. Why build a tram to Stockport when there's already a train to Manchester? Such is the ingrained belief that all transport services must go to Manchester. The whole concept of orbital services is so alien that some people can't even cope with the idea. Yet the M60 is an orbital motorway and unlocks journeys that people would not make it it didn't exist. We need to think out of the box too with trains and trams. Stockport to Denton and Ashton may not seem like an obvious rail route. Yet there is a motorway between them all...

London Overground also showed one thing to be true. Namely that if you build it, they will come...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If you ever look at the Manchester Evening News website comments about trams going to Stockport there's a regular theme. Why build a tram to Stockport when there's already a train to Manchester?

Yes, it would be absolutely crazy to build a tram line somewhere that already has a train station such as Altrincham, Eccles, Rochdale, Manchester Airport or Ashton.
Can't see any of them getting trams for that reason.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you ever look at the Manchester Evening News website comments about trams going to Stockport there's a regular theme. Why build a tram to Stockport when there's already a train to Manchester? Such is the ingrained belief that all transport services must go to Manchester. The whole concept of orbital services is so alien that some people can't even cope with the idea. Yet the M60 is an orbital motorway and unlocks journeys that people would not make it it didn't exist. We need to think out of the box too with trains and trams. Stockport to Denton and Ashton may not seem like an obvious rail route. Yet there is a motorway between them all...

London Overground also showed one thing to be true. Namely that if you build it, they will come...

Manchester is the hub city of Greater Manchester with a noted railway inter-city station, a first-rate university campus and where major shopping complexes are situated, to name but three.

Orbital bus services already do exist that run from Wigan, Bolton, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne, Stockport and Altrincham

 

[Grimsby town]

Manchester is the hub city of Greater Manchester with a noted railway inter-city station, a first-rate university campus and where major shopping complexes are situated, to name but three.

Orbital bus services already do exist that run from Wigan, Bolton, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne, Stockport and Altrincham

Buses that are horrifically slow. Ashton to Stockport has 3 possible road routes at best. There simply isn't the road infrastructure to cope with the increasing population in Greater Manchester. Realistically additonal roads or busways are going to be difficult to build and far more expensive than upgrading an existing rail route to allow tram services. Google shows a free flow car journey time of around 16 minutes between Ashton and Stockport. At peak times the average is 20-50 minutes. That clearly shows congestion issues already.

Stockport is a major travel hub which is starting to see significant development as it starts to overspill from central Manchester. A lot of housing being built in central Stockport has limited space for cars, so will naturally be dependent on public transport. Central Ashton has potential employment for these people which is as good as inaccessible currently. The potential demand is even greater as employment continues to expand in Stockport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Buses that are horrifically slow. Ashton to Stockport has 3 possible road routes at best. There simply isn't the road infrastructure to cope with the increasing population in Greater Manchester. Realistically additonal roads or busways are going to be difficult to build and far more expensive than upgrading an existing rail route to allow tram services. Google shows a free flow car journey time of around 16 minutes between Ashton and Stockport. At peak times the average is 20-50 minutes. That clearly shows congestion issues already.

Buses provide many intermediate bus stops along their routes for the benefit of the travelling public which is something that tram-trains will never match. People on the 330 route that I know of travel the following journeys:-
Stockport bus station to Vernon Park
Stockport bus station to Woodley Precinct
Peel Centre to Bredbury
Hyde bus station to Dukinfield Town Hall

Whenever I have travelled on the 330 route, the new modern yelow-liveried buses seem not to be unduly slow. I do appreciate that whilst certain thread contributors like to decry bus travel, they are not singing from the same hymn sheet as Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, whose liking for bus travel appears to be the cornerstone of his Bee Network.1

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2025 ==

Stockport is a major travel hub which is starting to see significant development as it starts to overspill from central Manchester. A lot of housing being built in central Stockport has limited space for cars, so will naturally be dependent on public transport. Central Ashton has potential employment for these people which is as good as inaccessible currently. The potential demand is even greater as employment continues to expand in Stockport.

Can I remind you of an old saying once used by a certain Tameside councillor...."Tameside jobs for Tameside people"

 

[Grimsby town]

Buses provide many intermediate bus stops along their routes for the benefit of the travelling public which is something that tram-trains will never match. People on the 330 route that I know of travel the following journeys:-
Stockport bus station to Vernon Park
Stockport bus station to Woodley Precinct
Peel Centre to Bredbury
Hyde bus station to Dukinfield Town Hall

Whenever I have travelled on the 330 route, the new modern yelow-liveried buses seem not to be unduly slow. I do appreciate that whilst certain thread contributors like to decry bus travel, they are not singing from the same hymn sheet as Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, whose liking for bus travel appears to be the cornerstone of his Bee Network.

Exactly, the bus service is fine for journeys that are around 2 miles long. Its awful for Ashton/Denton to Stockport. It's just too far slow to be competitive with other modes of transport. Travelling around 7 or 8 miles in 50 minutes is similar speed to what the average cyclist travels at, we can't consider that a suitable speed between to two major centres in Greater Manchester.

A colleague of mine, who has decades of experience in the bus industry, said that if a journey is over 45 minutes long, people won't make it. So Ashton to Stockport is essentially inaccessible to most people in 45 minutes. I'd like to see the Bee Network trail express bus along the M60 first but that would still run into congestion issues at peak times.

Can I remind you of an old saying once used by a certain Tameside councillor...."Tameside jobs for Tameside people"

Because the economy of Tameside is awful thanks to the poor connectivity. If you live in Ashton, your choice of employment is limited. Most people will only consider a commute time of around 45 minutes door to door, in one direction. Given how congested the M60 can be in peak times, that 50 minutes doesn't get you far. A tram-train service from Ashton to Stockport means that Stockport is an easy and reliable commuter destination for more people in Ashton. It also provides alternative options for travelling to central Manchester from Ashton/Audenshaw/Denton during disruption to trams and buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exactly, the bus service is fine for journeys that are around 2 miles long. Its awful for Ashton/Denton to Stockport. It's just too far slow to be competitive with other modes of transport. Travelling around 7 or 8 miles in 50 minutes is similar speed to what the average cyclist travels at, we can't consider that a suitable speed between to two major centres in Greater Manchester.

Buses are provided for people who go from intermediate stop "X" to intermediate stop "Y" in bus routes in the vast number of cases, not for end-to-end journeys. It really annoys me when buses are used in comparisons from one town to another as the main raison d'etre for running bus services. Stockport to Denton has been cited as one route that needs end-to-end time improvement, so I spoke to a bus driver about normal loadings on that bus route, and he said it was lighter than many other bus routes on which he drives. Look at the population size of the districts that are situated between Stockport and Denton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2025 ==

Because the economy of Tameside is awful thanks to the poor connectivity. If you live in Ashton, your choice of employment is limited. Most people will only consider a commute time of around 45 minutes door to door, in one direction. Given how congested the M60 can be in peak times, that 50 minutes doesn't get you far. A tram-train service from Ashton to Stockport means that Stockport is an easy and reliable commuter destination for more people in Ashton. It also provides alternative options for travelling to central Manchester from Ashton/Audenshaw/Denton during disruption to trams and buses.

When was the last time that you visited Ashton-under-Lyne? Transport-wise ,it has a modern bus station with many routes to adjoining areas, a terminal tram station adjacent to the bus station and a railway station across the road and also, adjacent to the bus station, a modern shopping mall and other retail premises. The outdoor market is currently being upgraded.

Go on the tram and see those areas outwards from Ashton-under-Lyne and there are large modern retail parks and sizeable business premises.

 

[Grimsby town]

Buses are provided for people who go from intermediate stop "X" to intermediate stop "Y" in bus routes in the vast number of cases, not for end-to-end journeys. It really annoys me when buses are used in comparisons from one town to another as the main raison d'etre for running bus services. Stockport to Denton has been cited as one route that needs end-to-end time improvement, so I spoke to a bus driver about normal loadings on that bus route, and he said it was lighter than many other bus routes on which he drives. Look at the population size of the districts that are situated between Stockport and Denton

I agree, buses serve a different market to a potential tram route which will focus more on connecting the town centres and a few areas in between with bus services, improved active travel, and in some cases cars feeding into the tram stops at places like Denton.

I feel like you're considering how things have worked in the past rather than considering how things will change in the future. In the past people lived in suburban areas and travelled to a town centre like Stockport for jobs and leisure. Stockport is fast becoming both an employment/leisure hub and a densley populated residential area, meaning that rapid transit becomes a far better way of transporting people. Similar could happen in Ashton if transport is improved, but in the meantime a tram would provide the opportunity to commute into Tameside from the increasingly densley populated Stockport town centre. It'll also provide improved transport for some residential areas along the route that are disconnected such as Audenshaw.

When was the last time that you visited Ashton-under-Lyne? Transport-wise ,it has a modern bus station with many routes to adjoining areas, a terminal tram station adjacent to the bus station and a railway station across the road and also, adjacent to the bus station, a modern shopping mall and other retail premises. The outdoor market is currently being upgraded.

Go on the tram and see those areas outwards from Ashton-under-Lyne and there are large modern retail parks and sizeable business premises.

Buses aren't really generator of economic growth, more a social service. Particularly when they're mixed with general traffic and stop every couple of 100 metres. Ashton's rail connections are awful compared to most of the other large GM towns. Rochdale, Stockport, Bolton, and Wigan have far better rail services. Rochdale also has trams. Altrincham and Bury have more frequent tram services that aren't mixed traffic with all the reliability issues that creates.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Buses aren't really generator of economic growth, more a social service. Particularly when they're mixed with general traffic and stop every couple of 100 metres. Ashton's rail connections are awful compared to most of the other large GM towns. Rochdale, Stockport, Bolton, and Wigan have far better rail services. Rochdale also has trams. Altrincham and Bury have more frequent tram services that aren't mixed traffic with all the reliability issues that creates.

One must remember that the tram line to Ashton serves a purpose these days of connecting places such as the Etihad Stadium and the Velopark, plus the Northern Quarter, Clayton, Audenshaw, and those areas of Ashton-under-Lyne that have seen great improvement in the 21st century.

How does the Greater Manchester Mayor, Andy Burnham, view the buses that form the core of the Bee Network?

Remember the M60 already gives a fast route from Stockport to Denton and that Denton could not have a worst-sited railway station for the town residents.

 

[Grimsby town]

One must remember that the tram line to Ashton serves a purpose these days of connecting places such as the Etihad Stadium and the Velopark, plus the Northern Quarter, Clayton, Audenshaw, and those areas of Ashton-under-Lyne that have seen great improvement in the 21st century.

The tram is okay but it's mainly operated in mixed traffic and isn't overly frequent. There's certainly a need to provide alternative routes that don't just run into the city centre boost economies in other areas.

How does the Greater Manchester Mayor, Andy Burnham, view the buses that form the core of the Bee Network?

Considering Burnham/TfGM are promoting the Stockport to Ashton tram, they clearly see the need for more than just bus travel on that corridor. The Ashton-Hyde-Stockport bus route is marked as quality bus corridor but that'll be about improving those intermediate journeys rather than end to end journey times and it'll be limited to better signal timing for bus services.

Remember the M60 already gives a fast route from Stockport to Denton and that Denton could not have a worst-sited railway station for the town residents.

But as I've previously mentioned, it's a very congested road at peak times and will become more congested as population grows. A lot of households on that route don't have access to cars. It can be as high as 50% in some areas and most of the development in Stockport will be carried free/low car.