GPS-based PAYG trials on EMR / Northern

[MTR380A]

Under distance based pricing how much would you charge for a day return from York to Whitby, avoiding Darlington. Would the fare be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time? Also if I was to start the journey at Church Fenton, would that add to the cost?

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Peterborough to Nottingham. will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

What would the fare be to travel between Reading and Paddington, and how much would it cost to travel between Penzance and St Austell? If the fare between Reading and Paddington is reduced how is that revenue going to be made up? If the fare between Penzance and St Austell is increased what will that do to passenger numbers and is the price increase politically acceptable?

These are just a few example of why mileage based pricing would not work. There are similar examples across the country.

A distance-based system should be “as the crow flies” and set to be revenue-neutral overall, so some journeys would become cheaper and others more expensive. The key gain is clarity: one simple, transparent metric instead of today’s confusing mix of splits, advances and routeing quirks. This isn’t untested theory — countries like Japan, Switzerland, and much of Germany already use distance-based fares with success. Rail in the UK should be capable of the same, while still allowing targeted subsidies where needed.

 

[transportphoto]

When conductors and revenue staff scan the PAYG barcode during their on-train checks, the GPS coordinates of the staff device as well as the train RSID / other identifiers are captured in the logs, so fairly easy to automate various fraud reports and anomalies.

Have you got a source to collaborate the claim regarding the GPS of the staff device being involved too?

 

[Haywain]

A distance-based system should be “as the crow flies” and set to be revenue-neutral overall, so some journeys would become cheaper and others more expensive. The key gain is clarity: one simple, transparent metric instead of today’s confusing mix of splits, advances and routeing quirks. This isn’t untested theory — countries like Japan, Switzerland, and much of Germany already use distance-based fares with success. Rail in the UK should be capable of the same, while still allowing targeted subsidies where needed.

Please start a new thread with these proposals, as I think a lot of us will have fin in the discussion. Meanwhile. I will just ask you to consider Mallaig to Kyle of Lochalsh.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Have you got a source to collaborate the claim regarding the GPS of the staff device being involved too?

It's not involved in the PAYG fare calculation. It's involved in the fraud reporting and analysis. Anyone with access to eTVD can confirm the GPS coordinates of where a scan occurred.

Very simple to create some business/management intelligence reports, without any specific software being required.

 

[transportphoto]

It's involved in the fraud reporting and analysis. Anyone with access to eTVD can confirm the GPS coordinates of where a scan occurred.

Which technologies support this? For example, does TTK? I’d half expect the GPS coordinates to show on the end user facing app - alongside all the other scan data - but they don’t.

I also don’t believe I’ve read any posts on this forum whereby fraud teams have cited GPS data from scans?

A source/citation to support your claims here would be an interesting read

 

[Haywain]

I also don’t believe I’ve read any posts on this forum whereby fraud teams have cited GPS data from scans?

With current ticket formats the location data isn't really relevant as the scan timing will provide all the information needed. The thread is about GPS based ticketing, so the location of scans is more important.

 

[transportphoto]

With current ticket formats the location data isn't really relevant as the scan timing will provide all the information needed. Thevthread is about GPS based ticketing, so the location of scans is more important.

I’d agree - I’m not overly convinced that current eTVD technology supports GPS though. This is what I’m trying to gain insight and evidence of.

 

[Haywain]

I’m not overly convinced that current eTVD technology supports GPS though.

And I'm not convinced that the existing eTVD is being used to calculate fares in this trial; it's simply not built for that.

 

[transportphoto]

And I'm not convinced that the existing eTVD is being used to calculate fares in this trial; it's simply not built for that.

I can’t disagree with you. The whole mention of GPS in this thread is a red herring. That being said, I doubt the data is there for it to be used in fraud detection as suggested by Tazi.

 

[Haywain]

The whole mention of GPS in this thread is a red herring.

I can't agree - the whole trial is designed to use GPS to ascertain what journey is undertaken, so it is fundamental to this thread. As far as fraud protection is concerned, it was suggested that location data could be manipulated by the phone user, so the revenue check serves to combat that.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can’t disagree with you. The whole mention of GPS in this thread is a red herring. That being said, I doubt the data is there for it to be used in fraud detection as suggested by Tazi.

So how else does your Smart device decide where you are when you press "Start Journey"

 

[Adam Williams]

Which technologies support this? For example, does TTK? I’d half expect the GPS coordinates to show on the end user facing app - alongside all the other scan data - but they don’t.

I also don’t believe I’ve read any posts on this forum whereby fraud teams have cited GPS data from scans?

A source/citation to support your claims here would be an interesting read

It is a thing, but it's far less consistent/reliable than @Tazi Hupefi would imply.

 

[transportphoto]

I can't agree - the whole trial is designed to use GPS to ascertain what journey is undertaken, so it is fundamental to this thread.

So how else does your Smart device decide where you are when you press "Start Journey"

Sorry - shouldn’t compose replies quickly whilst multitasking - use of GPS in relation to eTVD and fraud detection. GPS is absolutely core to the actual workings of the app and the trial itself!

 

[CB Root]

Well, I have been part of the Northern trial group for the last 4 weeks, and have made 6 journeys as follows (Senior Railcard applied):

18 Nov Doncaster - Meadowhall £ 2.70
18 Nov Rotherham Central - Doncaster £ 2.50
13 Dec Doncaster - Sheffield £ 2.70
13 Dec Sheffield - Doncaster £ 2.70
19 Dec Doncaster - Sheffield £ 2.70
19 Dec Sheffield - Doncaster £ 3.30

To the eyes of this non-expert, the pricing looks sensible and the £15 credit they have given to trial users certainly helps the medicine go down

The app works well on my Android smartphone (albeit not playing very nicely with power saver) and all the data I can see appear to have been correctly captured.

Overall, it was no bother to use, but it does rather feel like a solution in search of a problem. I already have various rail apps on my phone (for years) and continue to use these without incident. Not sure what DPAYG offers me over and above what I already have ?

 

[Angmering1974]

I just hope we don't end up in some hellscape in a few years where the only way to travel by train is to have a smartphone sending your GPS position 100% of the time...

And that's not a ludicrous suggestion with this government, if you are paying the slightest bit of attention.

@CB Root - I guess you thought the same prior to the trial, but just were after the free £15 (don't blame you)? Ie nothing came out during the trial that you couldn't ascertain prior?

 

[Starmill]

Well, I have been part of the Northern trial group for the last 4 weeks, and have made 6 journeys as follows (Senior Railcard applied):

18 Nov Doncaster - Meadowhall £ 2.70
18 Nov Rotherham Central - Doncaster £ 2.50
13 Dec Doncaster - Sheffield £ 2.70
13 Dec Sheffield - Doncaster £ 2.70
19 Dec Doncaster - Sheffield £ 2.70
19 Dec Sheffield - Doncaster £ 3.30

To the eyes of this non-expert, the pricing looks sensible and the £15 credit they have given to trial users certainly helps the medicine go down

The app works well on my Android smartphone (albeit not playing very nicely with power saver) and all the data I can see appear to have been correctly captured.

Overall, it was no bother to use, but it does rather feel like a solution in search of a problem. I already have various rail apps on my phone (for years) and continue to use these without incident. Not sure what DPAYG offers me over and above what I already have ?

There are a few things that you can only do with pay as you go, which may well not be available as part of the trial. These are just selected examples not a full list:

Subscription based discount rates. NS uses these in place of daily / weekly caps, as a pseudo-season ticket. There are serious problems with the current range of Flexi Seasons across England and take up has been very weak, so there's huge room for an improvement there.

Daily or weekly capping, or timed singles. This works best in small to medium sized geography areas. It also works best when it covers multiple modes of transport. In Greater Manchester you can get a connecting bus for nothing on paper so there are ways around that but the use of contactless makes it significantly more user-friendly. Daily caps are hard to implement any other way, Swift cards in the West Midlands for example are quite frustrating to use.

Upgrades to first class on the train when you realise Standard is busy are generally forbidden under the Conditions of Travel unless and until you either obtain permission or pay for the upgrade. This obviously depends on how many onboard staff there are and if say an upgrade offer is available such as weekend first. With this app this becomes a single button press and you're authorised to go and sit in first class, you'll be billed the correct fare. NS and SBB do this.

 

[tram21]

With this app this becomes a single button press and you're authorised to go and sit in first class, you'll be billed the correct fare.

I haven't seen this being possible? Is this on EMR?

 

[Starmill]

I haven't seen this being possible? Is this on EMR?

I don't think EMR run between Doncaster and Sheffield any more.

 

[tram21]

I don't think EMR run between Doncaster and Sheffield any more.

They don't. Is it CrossCountry then? Sorry I'm only familiar with the EMR trial and not the Northern one!

 

[Starmill]

They don't. Is it CrossCountry then? Sorry I'm only familiar with the EMR trial and not the Northern one!

Oh no sorry I don't know. I'm not a trial user.

 

[fandroid]

Upgrades to first class on the train when you realise Standard is busy are generally forbidden under the Conditions of Travel unless and until you either obtain permission or pay for the upgrade. This obviously depends on how many onboard staff there are and if say an upgrade offer is available such as weekend first. With this app this becomes a single button press and you're authorised to go and sit in first class, you'll be billed the correct fare. NS and SBB do this.

Can you imagine the paranoid British rail industry being able to deal with that? It would render impossible the policing of standard class ticket holders sat in 1st. If the time of the upgrade is found to be just a minute before the check, the passenger can say they've only just moved.