GPS-based PAYG trials on EMR / Northern

[Haywain]

How does the legislation tie in with this, when it says you must have a 'ticket' before you board a train?

If you are required to tap to start your journey then that will serve as a ticket. It’s no different to using one of the several other PAYG schemes with a smartcard or contactless.

 

[fandroid]

RPIs will check when you tapped in, and compare that with the time the train left the last stop. They'll have to guess where you actually got on, as they do now!

The Swiss have already saved on the massive ticket gate infrastructure that we love and cherish. Add in avoidance of the huge costs of staffing gatelines and you can see that it is already a lot simpler and massively cheaper for them to implement any new system like this one.

 

[Haywain]

RPIs will check when you tapped in, and compare that with the time the train left the last stop. They'll have to guess where you actually got on, as they do now!

If the charging is location based it will most likely show up anyone trying to game the system by not starting the journey before boarding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How does the legislation tie in with this, when it says you must have a 'ticket' before you board a train?

I’m assuming it’ll be a similar system to that used by HVV in Hamburg- you tap to commence your journey.

 

[Starmill]

How does the legislation tie in with this, when it says you must have a 'ticket' before you board a train?

The same way it works when you tap a contactless card on a platform. The definition of ticket has been widened in the Conditions to include Oyster, Contactless cards or devices and other forms of pay as you go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

I’m assuming it’ll be a similar system to that used by HVV in Hamburg- you tap to commence your journey.

Fairtiq is also live on TER in Occitanie and across the whole of Switzerland.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The Northern version generates a barcode which can be read by gates and TIS/RPO devices

 

[trainophile]

Today’s Metro. Main front page item.


Edit: Picture is a cartoon of a ticket office clerk telling a woman “what you have to realise Mrs Jenkins is that the new G.P.S. based auto-digital ticketing app isn’t designed to make *YOUR life easier.

*(Can’t do underscore on phone).

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Northern version generates a barcode which can be read by gates and TIS/RPO devices

Much the same as ScotRail Tap & Pay then.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is being achieved by a Rover ticket with in-app barcode.

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Digital PAYG Fares are now loaded.

£23/day daily cap.
£25 max fare (essentially a penalty)
£73/week cap.

No discounts.

The unpriced annual EMR PAYG ROVER fare is what will generate the unique barcode for that customer for gates and on-train scans, as well as for customer related events arising after travel.

Somewhat incidentally, this is good news for Rail Rangers/Rover products, as they are clearly now able to be supported by Trainline solutions, if the desire is there to enable them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Much the same as ScotRail Tap & Pay then.

Exactly the same as far as I'm aware

 

[renegademaster]

RPIs will check when you tapped in, and compare that with the time the train left the last stop. They'll have to guess where you actually got on, as they do now!

The Swiss have already saved on the massive ticket gate infrastructure that we love and cherish. Add in avoidance of the huge costs of staffing gatelines and you can see that it is already a lot simpler and massively cheaper for them to implement any new system like this one.

Gates aren't a requirement for PAYG, plenty of outer London stations are ungated with oyster readers on the platforms.

If you really want to cheap out you can put the validators on the trains themselves like they are in Germany.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

London's zonal PAYG system literally has two fare scales: a cheaper one set by a public sector operator who's Chief Exec is an elected politician, and a significantly more expensive one which the private sector operators had to be bribed with public money to accept. And nationalising the TOCs won't address this because there still won't be democratic accountability - the rail minister isn't going to be kicked out because public transport users in an area feel ripped off and traffic is awful. An elected mayor might well be.

London funds this with special accommodations to keep more of it's local taxes then everywhere else and other subsidies that Westminster provides.

 

[sheff1]

If you are required to tap to start your journey then that will serve as a ticket. It’s no different to using one of the several other PAYG schemes with a smartcard or contactless.

So not "ticketless" travel as claimed by the BBC.

 

[Haywain]

So not "ticketless" travel as claimed by the BBC.

Note that I said tap, rather than tap in. I am assuming that the mobile device or app needs to be told in some way that a journey is commencing. If not, the only option is to monitor all if the holder's movements to try and figure out which are by rail and nobody is going to see that as acceptable. But it still means travelling without a conventional tocket.

 

[MTR380A]

This experiment is great, but the long-term goal should be a distance-based fare system. The "best fare" model still struggles with split and advance tickets, and the complexity of off-peak fares. A distance-based approach offers a single, objective metric that would simplify everything.

 

[Mark J]

What some seem to be overlooking is that GPS is very easy to manipulate.

Therefore, this GPS system could easily be open to abuse by individuals who use GPS location spoofing software to falsify their locations.

There are a whole host of apps in the Google and Apple stores that do just this.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What some seem to be overlooking is that GPS is very easy to manipulate.

Therefore, this GPS system could easily be open to abuse by individuals who use GPS location spoofing software to falsify their locations.

There are a whole host of apps in the Google and Apple stores that do just this.

I was just about to make that point
The technology is certainly interesting and I think it will be well used, but I can absolutely see people spoofing their GPS to the station 1 before the terminus a minute or two before the train gets there to get through the barriers at the destination unquestioned.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I was just about to make that point
The technology is certainly interesting and I think it will be well used, but I can absolutely see people spoofing their GPS to the station 1 before the terminus a minute or two before the train gets there to get through the barriers at the destination unquestioned.

Not really an issue.

When conductors and revenue staff scan the PAYG barcode during their on-train checks, the GPS coordinates of the staff device as well as the train RSID / other identifiers are captured in the logs, so fairly easy to automate various fraud reports and anomalies. Ticket barriers will also need the barcode.

Like most things these days in revenue protection, the train crew and station staff don't need to get involved. It can be a back office process that has fraud analysts reviewing data constantly and then send the letters etc. As long as there is occasional scanning, it's all fine. Just one or two anomalous journeys will flag, so a customer will have to be extremely lucky every single time not to be scanned or pass a gateline.

 

[35B]

Not really an issue.

When conductors and revenue staff scan the PAYG barcode during their on-train checks, the GPS coordinates of the staff device as well as the train RSID / other identifiers are captured in the logs, so fairly easy to automate various fraud reports and anomalies. Ticket barriers will also need the barcode.

Like most things these days in revenue protection, the train crew and station staff don't need to get involved. It can be a back office process that has fraud analysts reviewing data constantly and then send the letters etc. As long as there is occasional scanning, it's all fine. Just one or two anomalous journeys will flag, so a customer will have to be extremely lucky every single time not to be scanned or pass a gateline.

I get the tech, and how that will work. But I think the reliance on back office misplaced as it leaves too much space for people to think "I'll never be caught" - as evidenced by very many of the disputes threads. The use of regular patrols and checks on train surely needs to be part of a deterrence strategy.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I get the tech, and how that will work. But I think the reliance on back office misplaced as it leaves too much space for people to think "I'll never be caught" - as evidenced by very many of the disputes threads. The use of regular patrols and checks on train surely needs to be part of a deterrence strategy.

EMR are fairly proactive in my experience - with a well staffed revenue protection team and regular ticket checks by train crew.

Nottingham and Derby are well gated now, since the "right of way" etc has been resolved (closed).

Makes no difference to a train operator really whether they catch them on the day, or in the back office. If anything, the revenue protection activity in the back office is less risky and likely to recover greater revenue. Most revenue protection activities even on the front line end up also being checked again by back office teams to see if there's a bigger picture.

They probably just need to do a few well publicised crackdowns and local media releases once they've caught a few playing the game.

 

[Mark J]

I was just about to make that point
The technology is certainly interesting and I think it will be well used, but I can absolutely see people spoofing their GPS to the station 1 before the terminus a minute or two before the train gets there to get through the barriers at the destination unquestioned.

There is also an issue with certain trains blocking GPS locations, as well as mobile signal.

Lets just hope that Crosscountry have no ideas of trialing this too.

There have been many a time I've been sat on a XC train at Banbury, with my phone GPS still stuck at Oxford Station.

I think E-tickets and tap on, tap off is good enough.

Not sure why it is thought to be clever to now introduce ticketing based upon GPS locations.

There are still some out there who think we should be fully digital.

Despite the fact in many places within the UK, it is quite easy to struggle to get a good signal and connection on 4G/5G.

 

[35B]

EMR are fairly proactive in my experience - with a well staffed revenue protection team and regular ticket checks by train crew.

Nottingham and Derby are well gated now, since the "right of way" etc has been resolved (closed).

Makes no difference to a train operator really whether they catch them on the day, or in the back office. If anything, the revenue protection activity in the back office is less risky and likely to recover greater revenue. Most revenue protection activities even on the front line end up also being checked again by back office teams to see if there's a bigger picture.

They probably just need to do a few well publicised crackdowns and local media releases once they've caught a few playing the game.

I suggest that is an accountants view, and neglects the wider role of visible enforcement in dissuading fare dodging

 

[JamesT]

This experiment is great, but the long-term goal should be a distance-based fare system. The "best fare" model still struggles with split and advance tickets, and the complexity of off-peak fares. A distance-based approach offers a single, objective metric that would simplify everything.

There have been many, many threads on this forum regarding distance based fares. I won’t go into detail as you can read them yourself, but there are many challenges that mean distance based fares aren’t necessarily simple and/or would have other consequences.

I think it’s notable that probably the most successful public transport system in the UK is not distance based.

 

[fandroid]

There is also an issue with certain trains blocking GPS locations, as well as mobile signal.

Lets just hope that Crosscountry have no ideas of trialing this too.

There have been many a time I've been sat on a XC train at Banbury, with my phone GPS still stuck at Oxford Station.

As the law is unlikely to change in that anyone boarding train has to have a ticket, then those who suffer the XC Block will immediately get themselves in trouble for not tapping in at or before their starting station.

 

[Hadders]

This experiment is great, but the long-term goal should be a distance-based fare system. The "best fare" model still struggles with split and advance tickets, and the complexity of off-peak fares. A distance-based approach offers a single, objective metric that would simplify everything.

Under distance based pricing how much would you charge for a day return from York to Whitby, avoiding Darlington. Would the fare be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time? Also if I was to start the journey at Church Fenton, would that add to the cost?

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Peterborough to Nottingham. will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

What would the fare be to travel between Reading and Paddington, and how much would it cost to travel between Penzance and St Austell? If the fare between Reading and Paddington is reduced how is that revenue going to be made up? If the fare between Penzance and St Austell is increased what will that do to passenger numbers and is the price increase politically acceptable?

These are just a few example of why mileage based pricing would not work. There are similar examples across the country.

 

[yorkie]

This experiment is great, but the long-term goal should be a distance-based fare system. The "best fare" model still struggles with split and advance tickets, and the complexity of off-peak fares. A distance-based approach offers a single, objective metric that would simplify everything.

Feel free to create a new thread with your proposals. I may have some questions about how this would work, but it doesn't belong in this thread, so I'll wait until you've created it. Thanks

 

[Llandudno]

Under distance based pricing how much would you charge for a day return from York to Whitby, avoiding Darlington. Would the fare be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time? Also if I was to start the journey at Church Fenton, would that add to the cost?

How much would a day return fare from York to London cost, and if this is lower than current price how would the revenue loss be made up?

What would it cost to travel from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Peterborough to Nottingham. will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

How much would it cost to travel from London St Pancras to Ashford Intl (and any routeing options you wish to provide) and would those fares apply from, say, London Charing Cross to Ashford Intl?

What would the fare be to travel between Reading and Paddington, and how much would it cost to travel between Penzance and St Austell? If the fare between Reading and Paddington is reduced how is that revenue going to be made up? If the fare between Penzance and St Austell is increased what will that do to passenger numbers and is the price increase politically acceptable?

These are just a few example of why mileage based pricing would not work. There are similar examples across the country.

Indeed, would it based on as the crow flies or the route the train takes…?

Bleanau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog could be exceptional value for money based on the former!

 

[birchesgreen]

Are you able to know what fare you will be charged before you make a journey with this system? Otherwise i would be a bit hestitant to use it.

 

[tram21]

Are you able to know what fare you will be charged before you make a journey with this system? Otherwise i would be a bit hestitant to use it.

You can look it up on BRFares- its basically half the Anytime Day Return. Just look for PAYG Single for an eligible journey.

But for the average person I have no idea how you'd find out!

 

[GodAtum]

This raises so many privacy concerns. Why do you need to be GPS-tracked, potentially up to an entire day, even when you're not on a train (like grabbing lunch along the way, etc)? All that is required to calculate the exact price for a trip is the time scanned in to the first station and time scanned out at your last station, possibly with an intermediate station to determine the exact route taken. And this system already exists in the UK: Oyster and the pay-as-you-go system in Greater London. It also handles daily caps, peak hour pricing, and the pink Oyster pads to show you took a specific (cheaper) route. With far less impact on someone's privacy. Just roll out Oyster nationwide, instead of implementing a new system, that collects far too much data about someone. Plus you don't need a specific app for that, you can just use any bank card or digital wallet.Or look at systems like OV Pay in The Netherlands, which is very similar to Oyster in function, but nationwide.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This raises so many privacy concerns. Why do you need to be GPS-tracked, potentially up to an entire day, even when you're not on a train (like grabbing lunch along the way, etc)? All that is required to calculate the exact price for a trip is the time scanned in to the first station and time scanned out at your last station, possibly with an intermediate station to determine the exact route taken. And this system already exists in the UK: Oyster and the pay-as-you-go system in Greater London. It also handles daily caps, peak hour pricing, and the pink Oyster pads to show you took a specific (cheaper) route. With far less impact on someone's privacy. Just roll out Oyster nationwide, instead of implementing a new system, that collects far too much data about someone. Plus you don't need a specific app for that, you can just use any bank card or digital wallet.Or look at systems like OV Pay in The Netherlands, which is very similar to Oyster in function, but nationwide.

That requires lots of infastrucutre to be built.
This just runs on the person's phone and a central server.