Adelantes for FGW (again?)

[tbtc]

They allowed the few remaining 47s and MK2 sets in use of daytime trains to be withdrawn and they allowed half hourly Cardiff services to be introduced.

True, and I guess this was before FGW knew that there were going to be plenty HSTs displaced by Voyagers for Virgin

 

[WestCoast]

(if it is true they were originally for first north western which i doupt).

It is absolutely true, they were originally intended (we are talking very early on) for FNWs London services from Blackpool North, Rochdale/Man Vic and possibly Manchester Airport. Virgin, at the time, were not to happy about this plan apparently, since it meant FNW would have 125mph stock to compete with them.

www.voithturbo.de/sys/php/docdb_stream.php?pk=820

Constant mentions of FNW on that link, although they really mean FGW.

 

[starrymarkb]

Remember that Great Western Holdings also owned North Western Trains prior to the First buy out.

There were artists impressions of a 180 with the NWT Star livery, if they had been for GWT they would have had the Merlin instead

 

[dave_wm]

I seem to remember that there were thoughts that the FNW 180s would be used on London - Holyhead services, which would have been transferred over from Virgin. Possibly it could have been an hourly 6-car or 9-car service from London to Crewe, splitting with 3 or 6 cars for North Wales and the remaining 3 or 6 to Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester Airport/whatever?

 

[RobShipway]

I seem to remember that there were thoughts that the FNW 180s would be used on London - Holyhead services, which would have been transferred over from Virgin. Possibly it could have been an hourly 6-car or 9-car service from London to Crewe, splitting with 3 or 6 cars for North Wales and the remaining 3 or 6 to Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester Airport/whatever?

Since the class 180's are 5 car trains it would have been difficult to do what you are saying above. It is more likely they would have started out as two 10 car train, with the one five car train for Holyhead and the other for Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester.

 

[starrymarkb]

Since the class 180's are 5 car trains it would have been difficult to do what you are saying above. It is more likely they would have started out as two 10 car train, with the one five car train for Holyhead and the other for Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester.

They were planned as 3 car sets though.

 

[northwichcat]

I seem to remember that there were thoughts that the FNW 180s would be used on London - Holyhead services, which would have been transferred over from Virgin. Possibly it could have been an hourly 6-car or 9-car service from London to Crewe, splitting with 3 or 6 cars for North Wales and the remaining 3 or 6 to Rochdale/Blackpool/Manchester Airport/whatever?

At one point Virgin Trains services between North Wales and London were worked by NWT/FNW crews on the North Wales Coast. This was obvious on NWT/FNW strike days as the trains started/terminated at either Chester or Crewe despite not being NWT/FNW services.

 

[tbtc]

They were planned as 3 car sets though.

I don't know whether that was the case, but (given the cost of cabs/ crumple zones etc) it seems odd to build such a short 125mph DMU.

High speed services tend to require much longer trains

 

[Lampshade]

Yes that's a bit weird because a 3 car 180, including first class, would have had fewer seats than the 158s that were running those services anyway.

 

[whhistle]

If the 180s return to FGW they should displace 166s on the Cotswold Line and Oxford fast runs.
This will allow 166s to replace 165s on Reading-Gatwick services and allow 165s to be used to provide extra capacity out of London.

It's a shame they don't use the centre cars to strengthen services, then have the driving cars (2-car units) to go to Northern or EMT or somewhere else.

 

[150222]

it's a shame they don't use the centre cars to strengthen services, then have the driving cars (2-car units) to go to northern or emt or somewhere else.

clearance!

 

[Lampshade]

clearance!

I suppose they could find somewhere really straight to run them, but that'd limit them to Mauldeth Road - Crewe avoiding Manchester Airport.

 

[MCR247]

It's a shame they don't use the centre cars to strengthen services, then have the driving cars (2-car units) to go to Northern or EMT or somewhere else.

Why on earth would EMT for example want a 2 car 180?!

 

[Lampshade]

Why on earth would EMT for example want a 2 car 180?!

I think it's the 165/166 centre cars.

 

[RobShipway]

I was reading earlier today the special articles in the August edition of Modern Railways and they state the the Class 180's where originally for FGW and the technology from them has helped give other train manufacturers to better put the technical workings of their trains together. For example with the class 172's being Hydraulic - Diesels, rather than Electro - Diesel trains which is mentioned in a separate article that I read on Class 172 trains in the latest Rail Magazine.

 

[traveller1]

Always thought the original 12(?) Adelantes would have been perfect for an Intercity style service between Swansea - Bristol Temple Meads and Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[RobShipway]

Always thought the original 12(?) Adelantes would have been perfect for an Intercity style service between Swansea - Bristol Temple Meads and Portsmouth Harbour.

It was 14 Adelante's.

 

[IanXC]

I seem to remember that there were thoughts that the FNW 180s would be used on London - Holyhead services, which would have been transferred over from Virgin.

If ICWC were to purchase more 390s, then how many 180s would be required to operate the Holyhead services? This could allow all of their 220/221 fleet to be cascaded to XC.

Or would non tilting stock eat too many paths on the WCML element of the route?

 

[RobShipway]

If ICWC were to purchase more 390s, then how many 180s would be required to operate the Holyhead services? This could allow all of their 220/221 fleet to be cascaded to XC.

Or would non tilting stock eat too many paths on the WCML element of the route?

You would need to Electrify the North Wales coast route, which I believe the Welsh Assembly want as they feel like they are being left with the second best option with Voyagers being used for the services to Holyhead with the odd Pendolino being dragged by a Class 57 if it still happens.

 

[tbtc]

If ICWC were to purchase more 390s, then how many 180s would be required to operate the Holyhead services? This could allow all of their 220/221 fleet to be cascaded to XC.

Or would non tilting stock eat too many paths on the WCML element of the route?

I suggested that in the past, but the lack of tilt limits them to 110 which would eat into a few paths between London and Crewe.

The proposed electrification of the line as far as Chester may well reduce the amount of Holyhead diesel services though.

Frustrating, as I'd love to get those twenty five coach Voyagers for XC!

 

[MCR247]

For example with the class 172's being Hydraulic - Diesels, rather than Electro - Diesel trains which is mentioned in a separate article that I read on Class 172 trains in the latest Rail Magazine.

172s aren't diesel hydraulic

 

[Lampshade]

172s aren't diesel hydraulic

Yes they're diesel-mechanical, just like a 101, how advanced :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes they're diesel-mechanical, just like a 101, how advanced

Bombardier leading the way with train design

 

[starrymarkb]

EuroDesiros are also Mechanical Transmission, it's something that has been used in light railcars over there for a while

 

[swt_passenger]

Always thought the original 12(?) Adelantes would have been perfect for an Intercity style service between Swansea - Bristol Temple Meads and Portsmouth Harbour.

Except that use of scarce 125 mph rolling stock on such a slow service is a totally inappropriate use of resources, a lot like the current use with Northern.

They have to be used somewhere where their speed is relevant.

 

[whhistle]

Why on earth would EMT for example want a 2 car 180?!

Dunno, maybe they don't run the Leicester - Loughborough line anymore.

Maybe Cross Country's Leicester - Birmingham.

Although the old Central Trains Birmingham - Stanstead might have been a lovely home for them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Except that use of scarce 125 mph rolling stock on such a slow service is a totally inappropriate use of resources, a lot like the current use with Northern.

I think that the 180s present use with Northern more than anything shows the shocking lack of rolling stock (or DMUs anyway) that some TOCs face. When you have 125mph intercity units running slow commuter services because there is nothing else available to do the work something is very very wrong somewhere.

 

[northwichcat]

Except that use of scarce 125 mph rolling stock on such a slow service is a totally inappropriate use of resources, a lot like the current use with Northern.

They have to be used somewhere where their speed is relevant.

I agree about using stock designed for intercity services on intercity services. However, saying Northern's use of them is 'totally inappropriate' is going a bit far as Northern fill the units at peak times and they can take a lot of passengers to and from Blackpool at off peak times between Easter and November. Totally inappropriate should suggest they are used on local services and can't even half fill the train.

The plan was for LO to have their 172s in service by the end of 2008, LO to send their 150s to FGW and FGW to return all the subleased Northern 142s. However, as this didn't happen it mean Northern had to take on the only spare DMUs - which were 3x180s. Then when the LO 150s were released FGW released subsequently their ATW subleased units first and kept the subleased Northern units (which they plan to release when they get LM 150s) which mean Northern's 180 subleased was extended, extended again and again and again. Originally Northern were only due to have 180s until May 2009 and EC were then due to start refurbishing them and doing staff training on them.

 

[swt_passenger]

The plan was for LO to have their 172s in service by the end of 2008, LO to send their 150s to FGW and FGW to return all the subleased Northern 142s. However, as this didn't happen it mean Northern had to take on the only spare DMUs - which were 3x180s. Then when the LO 150s were released FGW released subsequently their ATW subleased units first and kept the subleased Northern units (which they plan to release when they get LM 150s) which mean Northern's 180 subleased was extended, extended again and again and again. Originally Northern were only due to have 180s until May 2009 and EC were then due to start refurbishing them and doing staff training on them.

You don't say... :roll:

 

[MCR247]

Dunno, maybe they don't run the Leicester - Loughborough line anymore.

Maybe Cross Country's Leicester - Birmingham.

Although the old Central Trains Birmingham - Stanstead might have been a lovely home for them.

Except they don't fit through Birmingham!