Euston to Glasgow needs to go half-hourly

[voyagerdude220]

If(!) there were more Pendolinos available (does anyone have any practical ideas on any Avanti routes which could cope with a reduced frequency to free more Pendolinos up?) I would run..

1 Glasgow to Euston fast service every hour similar to now, but only call Glasgow-Carlisle-Preston-Euston and vice versa. I think it's a shame there are no longer any trains at all which run none stop between Preston and London and v.v.

1 Lancaster (or Blackpool North if lack of capacity at Lancaster is an issue) to Euston calling at Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Tamworth or Nuneaton- (connections for Birmingham/South West and South East XC destinations)- Euston.
Also a WMR style service
Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Hartford-Crewe-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham (even consider merging this with an existing WMR service towards Euston to potentially reduce the length of time a train is stood at New Street between workings?)
Possibly use my WMR suggestion to reduce the frequency of the Avanti Euston to Scotland via Birminghams in order to run my suggested above Avanti services. Even if it's say every one Avanti every two hours doing the current Euston-Birmingham-Scotland instead of one every hour etc.

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue with the fast Glasgow/Euston trains not calling at Crewe is that there is only a two-hourly (and at times four-hourly, although this is being rectified) service between Glasgow and Birmingham; Either those fast trains calling at Crewe, or an extension of LNWR trains to Preston, would with a change provide a better service between two of the UK's biggest cities, and elsewhere.

 

[jfollows]

In the past Virgin called at Hartford. It always seemed odd, but it does connect a reasonable population.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hartford all day on 16/12/2025

Train information at Hartford all day on 16/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

08:10 to Euston (arrive 10:03)
18:43 from Euston (arrive 20:36)
in the December timetable

However I do remember BR calling at Hartford on a Carlisle-Crewe service many years ago (but post 1974 electrification). There was a proposal to use AM9 units for a similar service but it was killed because they had slam doors. A semi-fast Carlisle-Crewe could indeed call at Hartford if it were possible.

 

[AndrewE]

However I do remember BR calling at Hartford on a Carlisle-Crewe service many years ago (but post 1974 electrification). There was a proposal to use AM9 units for a similar service but it was killed because they had slam doors. A semi-fast Carlisle-Crewe could indeed call at Hartford if it were possible.

Hartford was important because it was a main line station close to ICI at Northwich. I was told that this was the reason that the morning Bristol-Liverpool called there in the mid-'70s, i.e. to ease the movement of senior people between ICI Avonmouth and Northwich.

 

[JonathanH]

The issue with the fast Glasgow/Euston trains not calling at Crewe is that there is only a two-hourly (and at times four-hourly, although this is being rectified) service between Glasgow and Birmingham; Either those fast trains calling at Crewe, or an extension of LNWR trains to Preston, would with a change provide a better service between two of the UK's biggest cities, and elsewhere.

The way the timetable is structured, with the Manchester to Scotland following the Birmingham to Scotland means that once the two-hourly Birmingham to Glasgow service runs, there are connections every hour from Birmingham to Glasgow via Preston, without the need for Crewe connections.

It must be hoped that where there are currently two operators, through advance fares will be easier to come by in the GBR era.

 

[Bald Rick]

What will the third one (per today) go to? The 2tph to Glasgow and Edinburgh split plan, still?

I don’t understand the question, sorry.

If you mean “What happens to the third Birmingham?”, it won’t run, and that WCML South fast line capacity would be used by something else, albeit something else that couldn’t go north of Colwich. The capacity between Coventry and New St will most likely be used is for the second Cross Country to go that way.

 

[cle]

I don’t understand the question, sorry.

If you mean “What happens to the third Birmingham?”, it won’t run, and that WCML South fast line capacity would be used by something else, albeit something else that couldn’t go north of Colwich. The capacity between Coventry and New St will most likely be used is for the second Cross Country to go that way.

Yes that's what I meant - of the 3tph Pendos that way (I know one is 80x but you get me) - where would that released path go.

So it sounds like the XC goes that way, and then potentially there is a fast Euston-MKC-Rugby shuttle? What else would even work if it can't even go via Norton Bridge? Can't turn trains anywhere else really.

I thought this was maybe the precursor to the 2tph direct Scotland service.

 

[The Planner]

Yes that's what I meant - of the 3tph Pendos that way (I know one is 80x but you get me) - where would that released path go.

So it sounds like the XC goes that way, and then potentially there is a fast Euston-MKC-Rugby shuttle? What else would even work if it can't even go via Norton Bridge? Can't turn trains anywhere else really.

I thought this was maybe the precursor to the 2tph direct Scotland service.

You can turn it at Lichfield.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes that's what I meant - of the 3tph Pendos that way (I know one is 80x but you get me) - where would that released path go.

So it sounds like the XC goes that way, and then potentially there is a fast Euston-MKC-Rugby shuttle? What else would even work if it can't even go via Norton Bridge? Can't turn trains anywhere else really.

I thought this was maybe the precursor to the 2tph direct Scotland service.

Another potential is Euston - Nuneaton and turn left. Not necessarily with passengers!

 

[Topological]

Isn't the idea to add more semi-fast paths for Northampton etc? In that sense a Lichfield to London is not as daft as it might sound.

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't the idea to add more semi-fast paths for Northampton etc? In that sense a Lichfield to London is not as daft as it might sound.

Yes, access from Northampton to Tamworth, and faster Northampton to London trains might makes some people happy.

 

[Bevan Price]

Two points.
Non-stop Euston - Prston: What about Warrington & Wigan passengers who want to travel to Carlisle & Scotland? Do you want to force them all to change at Preston ?

Stops at Hartford. The platforms were shortened after the few Avanti stops were withdrawn. Now they are only long enough for 2xClass 350, or a single Class 807.

 

[Peter0124]

Two points.
Non-stop Euston - Prston: What about Warrington & Wigan passengers who want to travel to Carlisle & Scotland? Do you want to force them all to change at Preston ?

The via Brum services would still call at Warrington and Wigan so there'd still be 1tph (1tp2h to Glasgow / Edinburgh themselves)

 

[cle]

Another potential is Euston - Nuneaton and turn left. Not necessarily with passengers!

No wires though, correct?

I do recall a weirdo Euston-Coventry-Nuneaton service in a HS2 plan though, which could be another thing! But also diesel.

Lichfield isn’t a terrible idea I guess, it’s a lot of nothing places IMO but basically a second TV hourly. Might enable some calls to be dropped elsewhere, esp as it’s a Weedon service.

 

[cambsy]

With the ECML getting Kings Cross-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh trains from December timetable change, I do think its shame that the WCML is stuck with 6-7 stop fast services Euston-Glasgow, with them coming between Warrington and Carlisle, which make these trains feel more commuter than fast intercity express. I did see proposal while back of an extra London-Preston etc service so that the Euston-Glasgow fasts could reduce their stops. It is overall a shame that services have slowed down since Virgins VHf timetable.

 

[mchunt]

Knock out one of the three trains per-hour to Manchester and make it a Glasgow, first stop Preston then Carlisle only. I'll get my coat.....

Make the one that stops at Nuneaton carry on to Glasgow (like the via Birminghams one), I'm sure platforms 13/14 can handle yet another service.

Would make day trips from Nuneaton to Glasgow easier and totally kill Manchesters capacity at the same time.

 

[Falcon1200]

The way the timetable is structured, with the Manchester to Scotland following the Birmingham to Scotland means that once the two-hourly Birmingham to Glasgow service runs, there are connections every hour from Birmingham to Glasgow via Preston, without the need for Crewe connections.

Yes, that's a good point, and I have indeed made that connection myself, although on occasion the Manchester Airport service has been so busy that I have just waited for the next Avanti train! I would still argue that more calls at, or connections for, Crewe would be very useful.

 

[cle]

With the ECML getting Kings Cross-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh trains from December timetable change, I do think its shame that the WCML is stuck with 6-7 stop fast services Euston-Glasgow, with them coming between Warrington and Carlisle, which make these trains feel more commuter than fast intercity express. I did see proposal while back of an extra London-Preston etc service so that the Euston-Glasgow fasts could reduce their stops. It is overall a shame that services have slowed down since Virgins VHf timetable.

Ideally it would be doable. London-Glasgow in 4 or less would make a difference, and hopefully even getting to Handsacre will move the dial a bit (20 mins saved?) - getting to Crewe by HS2 would of course save about 35-40 mins.

But fundamentally, the WCML is far more constrained, and Edinburgh-London is a bigger market (also for flights) so the p2p pool is larger. And they are fighting Lumo.

Also Carlisle is no Newcastle, Preston no York etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The need for the Avanti is to get to London directly as opposed to Chester.
Maybe I’m wrong but an hourly run along the coast seems to be frequent enough.

There will soon be another TfW train Chester-Bangor (from Manchester, with the current Manchester-Llandudno switching to Liverpool), as well as (Crewe-) Chester-Wrexham.
The Avantis are mostly in the peaks and in the right direction (eastwards am, westwards pm), providing much needed peak capacity and a through route via Crewe.

 

[AndrewE]

The Avantis are mostly in the peaks and in the right direction (eastwards am, westwards pm), providing much needed peak capacity and a through route via Crewe.

Have a look at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-11-06/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
"Up" trains from Chester are (should be) every single hour through to Euston from 0624 until 1732, then 1932.
It's similar the other way, hourly from 8 am to 8pm from Euston but with no gap.

p.s. (Admittedly the trains that actually start down the coast, 5, 6, 7, 9, 13 and 14 hrs from HHD, do fit that pattern, as do the ones the other way. I was still thinking in terms of the recent discussion of places to connecct into the WCML and people saying from Chester go via Crewe, when Warrington is the obvious rboute.)

 

[NorthWalian]

There will soon be another TfW train Chester-Bangor (from Manchester, with the current Manchester-Llandudno switching to Liverpool), as well as (Crewe-) Chester-Wrexham.
The Avantis are mostly in the peaks and in the right direction (eastwards am, westwards pm), providing much needed peak capacity and a through route via Crewe.

The morning legs are always too expensive which is why they appear empty - it’s cheaper Chester - London to use Avanti only to Stafford and change to LNR there.

As for TFW, I am surprised they haven’t tried to run Liverpool - Shrewsbury and/or Liverpool-Cardiff via Shrews or Crewe

Maybe they think with Merseyrail, getting to Chester (and some of the east cheshire stations) is all they need to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

Have a look at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-11-06/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
"Up" trains from Chester are (should be) every single hour through to Euston from 0624 until 1732, then 1932.
It's similar the other way, hourly from 8 am to 8pm from Euston but with no gap.

Yet only one runs to Wrexham for some reason.

 

[321362]

How about
2tph pendolino London - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme 1tph - Penrith 1tph - Carlisle - Glasgow
1tph LNR London - Trent Valley - Crewe - Preston stopper
1tph 80x London - MKC - Nuneaton - Lichfield/Tamworth - Stafford - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston

Then keep the Edinburgh via Birminghams as is, as well as TPE north of Preston

 

[Zomboid]

Where are those paths for Glasgow coming from?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2025 ==

At the southern end departing London there seems to be in each hour
1 Glasgow fast
1 Scotland via Birmingham
2 Birmingham
3 Manchester
2 Liverpool
1 Chester
1 LNR to Crewe

Plus whatever fast line operations LNR have on their Northampton/ Birmingham service.

To do an extra Scotland train one of those needs to go...

 

[AndrewE]

How about
2tph pendolino London - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme 1tph - Penrith 1tph - Carlisle - Glasgow
1tph LNR London - Trent Valley - Crewe - Preston stopper
1tph 80x London - MKC - Nuneaton - Lichfield/Tamworth - Stafford - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston

Then keep the Edinburgh via Birminghams as is, as well as TPE north of Preston

and are you withdrawing the Birmingham-Glasgows altogether? That makes yet another change for e.g. Bristol-Glasgow passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Plus whatever fast line operations LNR have on their Northampton/ Birmingham service.

2 x Birmingham via Northampton, Fast line between Euston and Ledburn Junction.

More in the peak hour.

 

[NCT]

The timetable is different now, but before 2022, Network Rail considered the southern end of the WCML to be full. In the Down, the xx33 was the spare path after the regular xx30 to Glasgow. Network Rail were OK with the 33 used in the peaks but insisted on keeping it spare for inter-peak recovery. Until HS2 (and at least until Handsacre is sorted) hourly to Glasgow is the capacity limit.

 

[Zomboid]

and are you withdrawing the Birmingham-Glasgows altogether? That makes yet another change for e.g. Bristol-Glasgow passengers.

Bristol to Glasgow passengers could stay on the XC to Manchester and pick up a TPE. Though that would require XC trains to be big enough.

 

[Peter0124]

Bristol to Glasgow passengers could stay on the XC to Manchester and pick up a TPE. Though that would require XC trains to be big enough.

Thats asking for trouble! Overcrowded XC trains plus the use of Platform 14. You might aswell keep the direct BHM-GLC if you are keeping 1tp2h BHM-EDB.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The morning legs are always too expensive which is why they appear empty - it’s cheaper Chester - London to use Avanti only to Stafford and change to LNR there.
As for TFW, I am surprised they haven’t tried to run Liverpool - Shrewsbury and/or Liverpool-Cardiff via Shrews or Crewe
Yet only one runs to Wrexham for some reason.

The morning TfW Wrexham-Liverpool starts from Shrewsbury at the moment.

My analysis of Avanti 805 services refers to those which run to Holyhead.
It's pretty farfetched to think Chester will not have a direct London service.

North Western Trains/First North Western did plan to run North Wales-Euston when it won the 1997 franchise, in a similar fashion to the Rochdale/Manchester Airport-Euston services.
But within a year or so a black hole had appeared in FNW finances (nothing to do with North Wales) and the whole idea was dropped.
158s/175s on the WCML was always a daft idea anyway, like 197s would be today.

Holyhead-Crewe-Birmingham was cut (and later diverted at Chester via Wrexham and Shrewsbury) when WCRM reduced paths via Stafford for a year in 2002.
These services were mostly loco-hauled on the slow lines and were also sent round the houses between Wolverhampton and New St to turn the stock - fast they were not.

Avanti has very reasonable off-peak return fares to London, and if you start from west of Chester there are minimal time restrictions (code VK).

 

[Tester]

2 x Birmingham via Northampton, Fast line between Euston and Ledburn Junction.

More in the peak hour.

And in a masterful piece of timetabling, actually crossing on Ledburn Junction - a pleasure to observe!