807/805 Speeds

[Ellis101]

I’ve noticed a lot of MU signage now being displayed across the WCML showing speeds up to 125mph. Does anybody know when 807/805s will be able to run to these speeds?

I remember hearing that driver briefings were in September but that was on a previous thread about 807/805s and may have changed.

 

[Fincra5]

No reason an 805/807 can't. They just can't do speeds that are "EPS" Speeds - which are for Tilting Trains.

 

[andyjhatton]

No reason an 805/807 can't. They just can't do speeds that are "EPS" Speeds - which are for Tilting Trains.

I think the ORR forbade them from using the MU speeds for reasons that go over my head.

 

[Tilting007]

I’ve noticed a lot of MU signage now being displayed across the WCML showing speeds up to 125mph. Does anybody know when 807/805s will be able to run to these speeds?

I remember hearing that driver briefings were in September but that was on a previous thread about 807/805s and may have changed.

Its waiting on driver training now.
Avanti hope to have the 805/807 running at MU for the Dec 25 TT change when additional trains are added.

 

[GhostManDN91]

Does anyone know if the 805/807s will operate faster than 110 between Weaver Jct and Crewe?

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know if the 805/807s will operate faster than 110 between Weaver Jct and Crewe?

As in does the to-be-introduced MU speed profile go above 125mph between those locations?

 

[Efini92]

I think the ORR forbade them from using the MU speeds for reasons that go over my head.

It was something to do with the 80x not having speed supervision. Somehow they were built and certified without anyone noticing.

 

[GhostManDN91]

As in does the to-be-introduced MU speed profile go above 125mph between those locations?

Yep that's what I was wondering. It would be nice to have a ride on one from Liverpool to Crewe when they can go faster than 110mph on that section.

 

[gabrielhj07]

It was something to do with the 80x not having speed supervision. Somehow they were built and certified without anyone noticing.

Was this to do with the ORR requiring that they had a means (TASS) to monitor a system (Tilt) that doesn't exist on the 80x?

 

[hexagon789]

Yep that's what I was wondering. It would be nice to have a ride on one from Liverpool to Crewe when they can go faster than 110mph on that section.

Yes, it does go up to the full 125mph between Crewe and Weaver.

You can see the new MU profile in the Sectional Appendices now. For Crewe to Weaver you want pages 15 to 19 of this document:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20September%2025/London%20North%20Western%20(North)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20September%202025.pdf

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London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix September 2025

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2025 ==

Was this to do with the ORR requiring that they had a means (TASS) to monitor a system (Tilt) that doesn't exist on the 80x?

As I interpreted it at the time it was first mentioned, it was the perceived additional risk of having drivers trained on two 125mph capable fleets, where only one had a speed supervision system.

 

[Bald Rick]

Imminent, AIUI

 

[Efini92]

Was this to do with the ORR requiring that they had a means (TASS) to monitor a system (Tilt) that doesn't exist on the 80x?

Yes but only the speed supervision part.
I believe there is an A train in Japan that tilts. Would’ve been a lot easier to have just bought that and used TASS.

Imminent, AIUI

November the 10th will give us a good idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2025 ==

As I interpreted it at the time it was first mentioned, it was the perceived additional risk of having drivers trained on two 125mph capable fleets, where only one had a speed supervision system

I thought it was more to do with the risks of trains exceeding the limits on bends.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So 125mph MU from Crewe Coal Yard to Weaver Jn, apart from a dip to 120 over Vale Royal viaduct (Down line only).
Weaver Jn itself towards Liverpool still has differential EPS speeds shown, but no MU.
Are these still the 221 differentials?

South of Crewe it gets complicated with no MU speeds at places like Whitmore and Rugeley (so 110 PS), and often different on Up and Down lines.

 

[Railperf]

So is the suggestion that some or all services will run at MU limits from November 10th?

 

[Tilting007]

So 125mph MU from Crewe Coal Yard to Weaver Jn, apart from a dip to 120 over Vale Royal viaduct (Down line only).
Weaver Jn itself towards Liverpool still has differential EPS speeds shown, but no MU.
Are these still the 221 differentials?

South of Crewe it gets complicated with no MU speeds at places like Whitmore and Rugeley (so 110 PS), and often different on Up and Down lines.

Yes, EPS differential remain, which means no MU speed at some locations

 

[Railperf]

Yes, EPS differential remain, which means no MU speed at some locations

Interesting that in places such as Leighton Buzzard, the maximum speed remains at 90mph for non-tilting trains - while the Enhanced speeds of 115mph and 125mph for tilting class 221 and 390's remain respectively despite the fact that there are no booked Class 221 workings over the West Coast Main Line in tilt mode.

 

[Efini92]

Interesting that in places such as Leighton Buzzard, the maximum speed remains at 90mph for non-tilting trains - while the Enhanced speeds of 115mph and 125mph for tilting class 221 and 390's remain respectively despite the fact that there are no booked Class 221 workings over the West Coast Main Line in tilt mode.

Are there any 221 still capable of tilting?

 

[Railperf]

The off-lease ex -Avanti units had active tilt. Those that have been transferred to Crosscountry most likely have the tilt system disabled.

 

[cambsy]

I noticed too on the sectional appendix that at some locations there EPS of 115/125 mph, So presume the 805’s-807’s will run at normal line speeds rather than the EPS speeds, am I correct?

 

[Tilting007]

Interesting that in places such as Leighton Buzzard, the maximum speed remains at 90mph for non-tilting trains - while the Enhanced speeds of 115mph and 125mph for tilting class 221 and 390's remain respectively despite the fact that there are no booked Class 221 workings over the West Coast Main Line in tilt mode.

If the 221 speeds were removed the Down at Leighton / Linslade would have gone to 100 MU.
One of the locations where tilt makes a massive difference.
35mph between a Pendo and 350/730 and 805/807…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2025 ==

Are there any 221 still capable of tilting?

I don’t believe it is being maintained any longer…

 

[Railperf]

The issue I find after Linslade northbound is how long the 90mph remains before going back to 110mph within a zone that seems to be ideal for accelerating to a higher speed where the curvature is not seemingly that severe. Clearly the 90mph through Linslade is also about pressure sealing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The issue I find after Linslade northbound is how long the 90mph remains before going back to 110mph within a zone that seems to be ideal for accelerating to a higher speed where the curvature is not seemingly that severe.

If you mean Linslade tunnel, the curvature is severe enough that 390s are on maximum tilt.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Its waiting on driver training now.
Avanti hope to have the 805/807 running at MU for the Dec 25 TT change when additional trains are added.

It looks like there's actually a reduction in 805s running from Chester, as there's no 1932 service to Euston (no change in the number running Euston to Chester), unless it's just not been put into RTT yet?

 

[cambsy]

Are 805’—807’s allowed to run at MU speeds at the moment if driver is trained to or is there no MU speeds driving till December timetable change?.

 

[Efini92]

Are 805’—807’s allowed to run at MU speeds at the moment if driver is trained to or is there no MU speeds driving till December timetable change?.

No, no MU speeds until DAS has been agreed.

 

[Railperf]

November the 10th will give us a good idea.

What happens on November the 10th? IS this a date when the DAS system is going to be accepted or not? In previous messages it was suggested the DAS system was struggling to reliably show location and permitted speeds. Is the location based on beacons or GNSS /GPS?

 

[hexagon789]

It looks like there's actually a reduction in 805s running from Chester, as there's no 1932 service to Euston (no change in the number running Euston to Chester), unless it's just not been put into RTT yet?

Avanti have been compelled to withdraw 5 services from December due to Network Rail concerns over capacity, which the ORR upheld, the 1932 Chester to Euston is one of the five.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Avanti have been compelled to withdraw 5 services from December due to Network Rail concerns over capacity, which the ORR upheld, the 1932 Chester to Euston is one of the five.

From RTT, looks like the 1702 from Euston (10-car 805) will run through to Holyhead, rather than dropping a set at Chester for the 1932 back to Euston as now.
It's hard to see what the WCML capacity problems are in mid-evening, preventing the 1932 running.

 

[cambsy]

I hope we get running to MU speeds, and that DAS doesn’t end up meaning it doesn’t happen. It will be a real shame if DAS means a lot of time and money is wasted because of needing this system And then not being able agree to using it.

 

[Efini92]

What happens on November the 10th? IS this a date when the DAS system is going to be accepted or not? In previous messages it was suggested the DAS system was struggling to reliably show location and permitted speeds. Is the location based on beacons or GNSS /GPS?

Sorry it should’ve said 5th November. It’s the closing date for the ballot. If it’s accepted DAS will be used.
I’m not sure, they have tested it to the MU speeds. I didn’t hear of any issues.
I believe it uses GPS.