807/805 Speeds

[Wyrleybart]

Sorry it should’ve said 5th November. It’s the closing date for the ballot. If it’s accepted DAS will be used.
I’m not sure, they have tested it to the MU speeds. I didn’t hear of any issues.
I believe it uses GPS.

Pardon for asking but who is balloting and for what ?

TIA

 

[Efini92]

Pardon for asking but who is balloting and for what ?

TIA

Aslef, the pay deal which includes the acceptance of DAS

 

[Pendomonium]

I hope we get running to MU speeds, and that DAS doesn’t end up meaning it doesn’t happen. It will be a real shame if DAS means a lot of time and money is wasted because of needing this system And then not being able agree to using it.

DAS also needs to be fit for purpose.

 

[Railperf]

DAS also needs to be fit for purpose.

Any update on the November 5 ballot?

 

[Efini92]

Any update on the November 5 ballot?

Yeah, it was accepted. DAS will be implemented from December I think.

 

[Railperf]

DAS also needs to be fit for purpose.

Is it fit for purpose now? There were reported teething troubles with it.

 

[Pendomonium]

Is it fit for purpose now? There were reported teething troubles with it.

That remains to be seen. Introduction, in principle, has been agreed. There are a few unanswered questions on DAS / MU speed operation & it is hoped an operational notice, which will be the official authority to commence, will resolve these. If it does the next challenge is to see how DAS practically works & weather or not it is actually a distraction.

 

[Railperf]

That remains to be seen. Introduction, in principle, has been agreed. There are a few unanswered questions on DAS / MU speed operation & it is hoped an operational notice, which will be the official authority to commence, will resolve these. If it does the next challenge is to see how DAS practically works & weather or not it is actually a distraction.

Any update on the above with only afew weeks to go until the timetable change? I noye EMR Class 810's are using their ETCS receivers for automatic pantograph raising / lowering where drivers 'forget'. Do the 805/807 have a similar setup, and crucially, could it have been used for speed supervision?

 

[Pendomonium]

Any update on the above with only afew weeks to go until the timetable change? I noye EMR Class 810's are using their ETCS receivers for automatic pantograph raising / lowering where drivers 'forget'. Do the 805/807 have a similar setup, and crucially, could it have been used for speed supervision?

Yes & no. The functionality is supposedly basic to the family of traction, but it was decided to cut costs on the WCML by doing away with the auto power change over feature. There was supposed to be a zero balise that dropped the pan on the Chester route, but Im not sure it was fitted. Engine pre heat (required before the diesel engines can be started) is automatically done by pre determined time/distance, but may fail to initiate so requires manual check & initiation if required. What has now happened is that the auto power change over feature used by TPE Hitachi IEPs at Wavertree & Allerton.... sorry.... Liverpool South Parkway, can be read under certain conditions by class 805 & 807 which drops the pan. For this reason the 805 & 807 fleets have this software wired as isolated, but under some circumstances it can remain active & requires manually isolating through the trains train management system. As for the MU speed introduction.... I believe drivers are still being trained on the profiles & an operating notice that finally gives authority & hopefully answers some outstanding questions has yet to be published. The MU speed boards look nice & shiney though.

 

[Ellis101]

Anybody know as its December if the new MU speed limits are achievable on 805/807s, and/or is it 110mph for the foreseeable future until the new timetable?

 

[Pendomonium]

Anybody know as its December if the new MU speed limits are achievable on 805/807s, and/or is it 110mph for the foreseeable future until the new timetable?

Existing Permitted Speeds until operational authority is given for MU speeds, be that before or after the timetable change.

 

[Railperf]

Existing Permitted Speeds until operational authority is given for MU speeds, be that before or after the timetable change.

Still some drivers undergoing the MU speed limit training as we speak. Not sure of the numbers trained or needing to be trained before authorisation is given
Also the small matter of the Driver Advisory System being proven to deliver reliable speed info, and of course the units 110mph limiter needs a software upgrade to be increased to 124mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

Still some drivers undergoing the MU speed limit training as we speak. Not sure of the numbers trained or needing to be trained before authorisation is given

Authorisation can be given regardless of the state of driver training.

 

[Paul AC]

Still some drivers undergoing the MU speed limit training as we speak. Not sure of the numbers trained or needing to be trained before authorisation is given
Also the small matter of the Driver Advisory System being proven to deliver reliable speed info, and of course the units 110mph limiter needs a software upgrade to be increased to 124mph.

Haven't we got rid of the stupidity of the false 124 mph speed limit yet? As invented by someone that didn't understand engineering tolerances.....

 

[43096]

Haven't we got rid of the stupidity of the false 124 mph speed limit yet? As invented by someone that didn't understand engineering tolerances.....

Or invented by someone working in km/h.

 

[Railperf]

Authorisation can be given regardless of the state of driver training.

So why hasn't it then?

 

[Bald Rick]

So why hasn't it then?

Because there are other things that need sorting.

 

[Railperf]

Because there are other things that need sorting.

What else needs sorting that hasn't been mentioned above?

 

[Bald Rick]

What else needs sorting that hasn't been mentioned above?

Not for public consumptio.

 

[Pendomonium]

What else needs sorting that hasn't been mentioned above?

With all the various bits of information given as to what has been required & what is being worked on, it shouldn't be too difficult to join the dots.

 

[notadriver]

Still some drivers undergoing the MU speed limit training as we speak. Not sure of the numbers trained or needing to be trained before authorisation is given
Also the small matter of the Driver Advisory System being proven to deliver reliable speed info, and of course the units 110mph limiter needs a software upgrade to be increased to 124mph.

It’s a 125 mph limiter - the system keeps the speed 1 mph below the set speed. On the 110 mph limiter the usual speed is 109 mph.

 

[bahnause]

It’s a 125 mph limiter - the system keeps the speed 1 mph below the set speed. On the 110 mph limiter the usual speed is 109 mph.

A useful feature for cases where the train protection system has been specified by muppets and does not allow for any tolerance. I'm looking at you, ETCS.

 

[Railperf]

A useful feature for cases where the train protection system has been specified by muppets and does not allow for any tolerance. I'm looking at you, ETCS.

I'm pretty sure that ETCS does allow for a certain tolerance in kilometres an hour or miles per hour before the brakes would kick in.

Around the edge of the speedometer is the speed 'hook' showing the maximum speed possible. If the driver exceeds the speed displayed by the hook, then it displays different colours along with audible indicator to aert the driver to reduce speed.

The colours are:
Key Speed Indications & Colors:

• Permitted Speed (Gray/White): A gray bar or hook on the speedometer indicates the maximum allowed speed, with white generally for normal running.
• Indication (Yellow): The speedometer turns yellow (or a yellow segment appears) when speed must be reduced; an audible alarm sounds to alert the driver.
• Warning (Orange): If the driver doesn't slow down, the display turns orange, and a louder alarm sounds, signaling immediate action is needed.
• Intervention (Red): If speed still isn't reduced, the display turns red, and the system automatically applies the brakes.

Therefore it is possible for a driver to exceed the maximum peritted speed by a small amount where the speed hook turns to yellow, but no brakes are applied.

On HS1, the TVM in-cab signalling also shows maximum peritted speed, but there is a 10km/h tolerance allowed where the brakes would not kick in. Nevertheless drivers are instructed NOT to stray above the maximum permitted speed. The reality is that on-train data recorders and monitoring of these by driver managers ensures that any indicated overspeeds even by a km/h or two can result in tea and biscuits with a driver manager!

Gone are the days when our beloved Intercity trains would allow slight overspeeds of up to 127/128mph before power would be cut to the motors!

 

[Snow1964]

It’s a 125 mph limiter - the system keeps the speed 1 mph below the set speed. On the 110 mph limiter the usual speed is 109 mph.

Is that the system is set to wrong speed (and I am fairly sure most systems work in 10km/h or 5km/h increments, not 5mph increments), or poor calibration.

200km/h =124.27 mi/hr
175km/h =108.74 mi/hr

In theory every time wheels connected to speedo are turned on a lathe need to be fully recalibrated to adjust for different circumference. It is of course possible to compensate in the calibration by using about 71/70 factor, when want to use rounded up rather than rounded down number. Then limiter cuts in nearer 125.9mph than 124mph

 

[Railperf]

Is that the system is set to wrong speed (and I am fairly sure most systems work in 10km/h or 5km/h increments, not 5mph increments), or poor calibration.

200km/h =124.27 mi/hr
175km/h =108.74 mi/hr

In theory every time wheels connected to speedo are turned on a lathe need to be fully recalibrated to adjust for different circumference. It is of course possible to compensate in the calibration by using about 71/70 factor, when want to use rounded up rather than rounded down number. Then limiter cuts in nearer 125.9mph than 124mph

a 205kph limiter would have been reasonable. But it might be that trains can measure speed by GPS as well as by wheel / axle rotation sensors (or possibly from the motors) to work out and take into account wheel wear. The problem is, if there is any sort of incident and an overspeed of so much as 1mph is reported, this tends to be condemned. Even though a large percentage of motor vehicle drivers seem to ignore road speed limits these days!

 

[bahnause]

I'm pretty sure that ETCS does allow for a certain tolerance in kilometres an hour or miles per hour before the brakes would kick in.

Around the edge of the speedometer is the speed 'hook' showing the maximum speed possible. If the driver exceeds the speed displayed by the hook, then it displays different colours along with audible indicator to aert the driver to reduce speed.

The colours are:
Key Speed Indications & Colors:

• Permitted Speed (Gray/White): A gray bar or hook on the speedometer indicates the maximum allowed speed, with white generally for normal running.
• Indication (Yellow): The speedometer turns yellow (or a yellow segment appears) when speed must be reduced; an audible alarm sounds to alert the driver.
• Warning (Orange): If the driver doesn't slow down, the display turns orange, and a louder alarm sounds, signaling immediate action is needed.
• Intervention (Red): If speed still isn't reduced, the display turns red, and the system automatically applies the brakes.

Therefore it is possible for a driver to exceed the maximum peritted speed by a small amount where the speed hook turns to yellow, but no brakes are applied.

On HS1, the TVM in-cab signalling also shows maximum peritted speed, but there is a 10km/h tolerance allowed where the brakes would not kick in. Nevertheless drivers are instructed NOT to stray above the maximum permitted speed. The reality is that on-train data recorders and monitoring of these by driver managers ensures that any indicated overspeeds even by a km/h or two can result in tea and biscuits with a driver manager!

Gone are the days when our beloved Intercity trains would allow slight overspeeds of up to 127/128mph before power would be cut to the motors!

Unfortunately, it's not that simple with ETCS. Depending on the manufacturer and software version, as well as the combination of the siftware used for the line (ETCS L2) and vehicle software, the display and behaviour vary. In short, the system in its current state is a mess, and the user interface is an imposition on the end user due to the numerous differences our „expert“ fanboys in charge didn‘t notice until the update went into service.

Tolerances do not exist in every case; for release speeds, the tolerance is 0. With the massive adjustments from SRS version 3.4.0 to 3.6.0, the entire display logic has changed once again. Incidentally, this has led to an undesirable side effect in that release speeds are monitored but are not visible to the driver. A great experience, which will accompany us for the next two to three years due to the eternally long lead times for adjustments to the specifications on part of the fleet. Currently, for example, the entire standard gauge network in Switzerland has to be adapted in order to maintain capacity. Safety is being traded for speed.

The flat braking curves in combination with the forward-shifted monitoring points mean that, compared to conventional signalling with ETCS, braking would actually always have to take place in the orange warning zone in order to achieve a similar driving profile and thus similar route capacity.

 

[Toby268]

Anyone know if MU speeds are now live? Having a look at some Liverpool services and others this morning, they seem to be keeping to time a lot better and not losing the odd minute here or there purely for performance reasons.

Some services also recovering time with very little allowances, which didn't really happen previously.

 

[Railperf]

They were due to be authorised by the start of the new timetable, though I have not heard if that actually happened. The evidence is not conclusive yet.

 

[2857]

Anyone know if MU speeds are now live? Having a look at some Liverpool services and others this morning, they seem to be keeping to time a lot better and not losing the odd minute here or there purely for performance reasons.

Some services also recovering time with very little allowances, which didn't really happen previously.

Yes

 

[Snow1964]

They were due to be authorised by the start of the new timetable, though I have not heard if that actually happened. The evidence is not conclusive yet.

New versions of sectional appendix for both LNW south and north have been issued in December 2025.
The track diagrams now include both MU and EPS speeds

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20appendix%20full%20PDFs%20December%2025/London%20North%20Western%20(South)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20December%202025.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20appendix%20full%20PDFs%20December%2025/London%20North%20Western%20(North)%20Sectional%20Appendix%20December%202025.pdf