Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

[SHD]

The debate is exactly the same as the one questioning whether an HST is LHCS or a DEMU. The reality is that it's a bit of both.

The TMST/Class 373 is a bit of an oddity, though, in that there is also kit relating to moving the train in the end of the end passenger coach as well as the power car.

The operational "reality" of TGVs is that they are EMUs. They have always been considered from an operational, commercial, and signalling standpoint in France as self-propelled electric trains - in the "AUTOM" category.

 

[NCT]

I know very well what they "essentially" are, I'm pointing out that they never operate outside of the fixed formation arrangement. It is a very peculiar UK rail forum habit to consider the TGV as a loco-hauled train rather than as an EMU. (I remember reading about this debate on the uk.railway newsgroup, which doesn't make me younger, alas).

This is pedantry for pedantry's sake.

It's things like space not available for passenger accommodation and initial acceleration rates that are people's interests.

 

[mike57]

I know there are some negative comments on here, but I have travelled on DD TGV services in France and found them to be comfortable. The ones I have been on tend to have a luggage stack mid carriage, as well as at ends. Dwell time is an issue but the French long distance services generally stop very litle so a 5 minute + dwell isn't an issue. The olny close stops that come to mind that I have experienced are Paris CDG Airport and Marne-le-Vallee and Laval and Rennes.

I had always wondered how long it would take Eurostar to go double deck, and its also worth noting that the Paris Brussells services get very busy so will also benefit.

The only issue I can see is the security capacity at St Pancras and Gare du Nord. On a recent trip through St Pancras it seemed to be flowing pretty well in spite of being busy.

Sooner or later the issue of St Pancras capacity will have to be addresed, but I suspect its a case of who pays. Eurostar are not going to fund extra capacity which will then allow their competitors in. So one or more start-ups will need to put the money up. I dont know if the Goverment intend to contribute, there is an arguement that overseas travel is discretionary, and costs shouls not be born by the taxpayer, and in spite of being a user of the service I do subscribe to that idea.

 

[Northumbriana]

In France, "surcharge" (overload) conditions are activated when there are 40 (four-zero) standing passengers per TGV coach. In that case, the speed on high-speed lines is restricted to 160 km/h IIRC.

Has that ever happened?

 

[Bemined]

Dwell time isn't really relevant on services with so few stops, though. Eurostar isn't Shinkansen. Shinkansen is more like a super fast long distance Elizabeth Line operationally.

It is on stops like Schiphol Airport which is a stop on the Amsterdam - Paris route. There can be up to 8 other trains per hour that use the same platform as the Eurostar here, so you can't have too long dwell times.

 

[AdamWW]

I know there are some negative comments on here, but I have travelled on DD TGV services in France and found them to be comfortable.

Only done it a couple of times, but on both times I didn't find it uncomfortable and I very much enjoyed the views from the top deck.

So long as those who need the lower deck get to sit there I can't see the stairs being much of a problem - getting my luggage up the stairs isn't much different to using subways and footbridges at stations.

 

[Eurostarosaur]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/e...le-decker-trains-first-due-in-service-in-2031
Looking at the article, this doesn't really add up for me. Only 30 trains firm ordered and only 200m long with 540 seats. They have options on 20 more but not firm orders. This looks like a reduction in capacity to me. Have I missed something?

 

[Sorcerer]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/e...le-decker-trains-first-due-in-service-in-2031
Looking at the article, this doesn't really add up for me. Only 30 trains firm ordered and only 200m long with 540 seats. They have options on 20 more but not firm orders. This looks like a reduction in capacity to me. Have I missed something?

Thirty trains should just about cover the twenty-six ex-Thalys sets along with the eleven remaining 373s including some spares, and in the case of the former 540 seats is a capacity increase over the original 404. But for the 373s it's quite a reduction down from 758.

On that basis it seems like the new stock will primarily be for what are currently the Eurostar Red services with the Eurostar Blue services mostly consisting of the e320s that could be covered by the optional twenty extra sets, with some of the quieter or more premium cross-channel services also getting the new trains.

 

[DesDobramento]

Obviously the HS1 route is cleared for stock conforming to the European loading gauge - hopefully Temple Mills depot likewise?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The one large Siemens order was probably blasphemy enough.

Alstom refers to this order as another in a sequence of SNCF orders from a larger framework agreement which covers French domestic high-speed stock.
So the opposition probably did not get a look-in on this one.

 

[zwk500]

Obviously the HS1 route is cleared for stock conforming to the European loading gauge - hopefully Temple Mills depot likewise?

If it wasn't, the Class 374 fleet would have got rather dented!

HS1 is UIC-GC gauge including Temple Mills except for the section via Ashford International (which is UIC-GB+). Ashford international platforms 3 & 4 are UIC-GB.

 

[Snow1964]

They must have specified a very low density interior. The BBC article states 1080 seats on a 400m train. SNCF claim 740 for a 200m latest generation TGV M, so 1480 seats for a 400m train.

1080 seats is not much more than the 902 of a class 374 (e320).

The 740 seats is the high density version, that the budget brands use, not those with plenty of luggage space, good business/first class, and big catering provision

A while ago, I asked on another thread about the possibility of double deck stock on HS1 domestic services and was told it should be possible except for the problem that many of the services deviate onto the older lines.

Not likely on HS1 because virtually no trains stay exclusively on new line. However for HS2 the original plan was 2 batches of trains, the first batch built to UK conventional size, and later a second double deck batch for exclusive use on HS2. Displacing the batch 1 trains to services running to other destinations (and of course pendolinos would have been around 40 years old by then).

It wouldn’t be the first time this happened. There are concerns about the ICE-L on Dutch tracks due to its axle load.

The axle load of older duplex is around 16-17t loaded, new ones might be lower, because it has distributed drive. Possibly the lower seat count means it is lower still (bear in mind normally work on about 12-13 passengers per tonne). Of course there are 2 axles on articulated sets per vehicle, and the new ones have 9 shorter trailers, not 8 as on older TGV. (I realise some are motored, but using term loosely to distinguish from power cars)

I heard concerns that the weight may be too high when it’s filled with passengers, because a double decker carriage carries more people. Would you think this is a concern?

With shorter vehicles, less weight per vehicle, I wouldn't be suprised if near 15t axle load with lower density layout. Things have moved on a lot since the original trains were built 30-33 years ago. They were effectively derivatives to the TGV Atlantique fleet design from late 1980s which was before some of the better weight saving came about.

Thirty trains should just about cover the sixteen ex-Thalys sets along with the eleven remaining 373s including some spares, and in the case of the former 540 seats is a capacity increase over the original 404. But for the 373s it's quite a reduction down from 758.

Some Of the numbers are for 200m trains, and others 400m. So go to be careful if comparing half length formations with capacity of 400m trains.

On that basis it seems like the new stock will primarily be for what are currently the Eurostar Red services with the Eurostar Blue services mostly consisting of the e320s that could be covered by the optional twenty extra sets, with some of the quieter or more premium cross-channel services also getting the new trains.

I am guessing they are waiting and seeing what happens regarding competition, if the deliveries do not start until 2031, probably got 2-4 years to decide on drawing down options

 

[Amalie]

It is on stops like Schiphol Airport which is a stop on the Amsterdam - Paris route. There can be up to 8 other trains per hour that use the same platform as the Eurostar here, so you can't have too long dwell times.

Passengers only ever either enter or exit the train in Schiphol on the Eurostar, which does help things ever so slightly.

Thanks to everyone that answered my questions regarding how viable this train would be in The Netherlands with the answer: “should be alright.” Can’t wait to see it on the rails here.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Thirty trains should just about cover the sixteen ex-Thalys sets along with the eleven remaining 373s including some spares

There are 26 ex-Thalys sets.

Eurostar merged in 2023 with Thalys, and it is the ex-Thalys trains that operate only in Continental Europe that are most in need of replacement. It has 9 200m long PBA trains, and 17 200m long PBKA trains in that fleet, so 26 trains in total. The order of 30 200m long Avelia Horizon is just basically replacing the ex-Thalys fleet, with an extra route Amsterdam-Geneva also to be worked on.

Eurostar ordering just 30 Alstom trains: pragmatism, and a lack of ambition

Put all the rhetoric to one side. In announcing today they are ordering 30 Alstom Avelia Horizon (TGV-M) double decker trains (see the FT here), with only options for 20 more, Eurostar is being less ambitious than has been rumoured for more than a year, where the talk was

jonworth.eu

 

[Sorcerer]

There are 26 ex-Thalys sets.

Oh my good lord, you're right, my maths really isn't checking out anymore.

Original post duly corrected.

 

[Birkonian]

I know there are some negative comments on here, but I have travelled on DD TGV services in France and found them to be comfortable. The ones I have been on tend to have a luggage stack mid carriage, as well as at ends. Dwell time is an issue but the French long distance services generally stop very litle so a 5 minute + dwell isn't an issue. The olny close stops that come to mind that I have experienced are Paris CDG Airport and Marne-le-Vallee and Laval and Rennes.

I had always wondered how long it would take Eurostar to go double deck, and its also worth noting that the Paris Brussells services get very busy so will also benefit.

The only issue I can see is the security capacity at St Pancras and Gare du Nord. On a recent trip through St Pancras it seemed to be flowing pretty well in spite of being busy.

Sooner or later the issue of St Pancras capacity will have to be addresed, but I suspect its a case of who pays. Eurostar are not going to fund extra capacity which will then allow their competitors in. So one or more start-ups will need to put the money up. I dont know if the Goverment intend to contribute, there is an arguement that overseas travel is discretionary, and costs shouls not be born by the taxpayer, and in spite of being a user of the service I do subscribe to that idea.

I also travel each year and also book a seat on the top deck. I take a very heavy suitcase and don't find the stairs a problem. They aren't too steep.
The view from the upper deck is a plus point.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Oh my good lord, you're right, my maths really isn't checking out anymore.

Original post duly corrected.

The Avelia Horizons are 200 m long, so two sets are needed to replace each of the eight remaining 400 m long Class 373. If 26 of the 30 Horizons replace the ex-Thalys fleet, the other four can only replace two Class 373s.

 

[43096]

The debate is exactly the same as the one questioning whether an HST is LHCS or a DEMU. The reality is that it's a bit of both.

Enthusiasts like to put things in need boxes. HSTs are HSTs. Simple. They are not multiple units as you can’t couple two sets in multiple.

 

[Harlequinuk]

I wonder if these are any better than the Bulleid designed Class-4DD

 

[quantinghome]

Hopefully there will be heavy luggage space on the lower deck by the doors (maybe under the stairs) to encourage passengers not to lug suitcases to the upper deck. Given access to Eurostar is much more secure than other trains I would think the risk of theft is significantly lower.

 

[NCT]

Hopefully there will be heavy luggage space on the lower deck by the doors (maybe under the stairs) to encourage passengers not to lug suitcases to the upper deck. Given access to Eurostar is much more secure than other trains I would think the risk of theft is significantly lower.

Judging by existing TGV duplex designs, I'm not hopeful. The lower saloon starts right by the vestibule and lower saloon luggage provision has always been tight. If anything there's 'excess' (in relative terms) luggage space upstairs opposite the staircase in the 'dead' space.

 

[Eurostarosaur]

Ok so based on the information here, and Jon Worth's very clear analysis Eurostar here's my little calculation.

Existing 8 in service E300 sets at 750 seats each = 6000 seats

To replace that with the 200m new trains with 540 seats each = 11.11 sets

Then for the ex-Thalys trains, current total is 26 sets at 371 seats each on average = 9646 (I know some PBKA have slightly more)

To replace that with the 200m new trains with 540 seats each = 17.86 sets

So with this firm order (not including options because that is smoke and mirrors), Eurostar is essentially able to match its current fleet capacity, but with a big decrease in frequency especially on the ex-Thalys routes, but a slight increase in frequency for the cross-channel routes if they ran them as single sets. But they have only ordered enough to maintain their current capacity, so the announcement of huge increases and new destinations etc is all predicated on them taking the options, and that could be very far down the line factoring in the age of the ex-Thalys stock.

The competition can't come soon enough. Otherwise we're stuck with Eurostar potentially shrinking the market or not expanding, and prices rocketing as they have done over the last few years. Excited to go on the double deckers but this is pretty disappointing.

 

[Citybreak1]

Thirty trains should just about cover the twenty-six ex-Thalys sets along with the eleven remaining 373s including some spares, and in the case of the former 540 seats is a capacity increase over the original 404. But for the 373s it's quite a reduction down from 758.

On that basis it seems like the new stock will primarily be for what are currently the Eurostar Red services with the Eurostar Blue services mostly consisting of the e320s that could be covered by the optional twenty extra sets, with some of the quieter or more premium cross-channel services also getting the new trains.

So double deckers to Switzerland and Frankfurt and e320s everywhere else?

 

[AdamWW]

So with this firm order (not including options because that is smoke and mirrors), Eurostar is essentially able to match its current fleet capacity, but with a big decrease in frequency especially on the ex-Thalys routes,

Freeing paths for competition, maybe?

 

[Sorcerer]

The Avelia Horizons are 200 m long, so two sets are needed to replace each of the eight remaining 400 m long Class 373. If 26 of the 30 Horizons replace the ex-Thalys fleet, the other four can only replace two Class 373s.

Hence the new stock will most likely be delegated to the old Thalys routes, though there could also be a partial replacement with 11 Horizons replacing all the 373s and the remaining 19 being used to partially replace the old PBA and PBKA stock not too unlike the introduction of the 374s which didn't completely replace the old Eurostar fleet.

Quite possibly they could just be replacing the 373s and the nine PBA sets so the entire Eurostar fleet can run in Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands alongside some remaining PBKA stock. It's mostly just conjecture at this point since Eurostar haven't made clear where the new stock will see operations and whether they will take up the option for twenty more trains in a follow-up order.

So double deckers to Switzerland and Frankfurt and e320s everywhere else?

Quite possibly if the e320s aren't permitted to run south of Paris. For Switzerland specifically I expect ETCS Level 2/3 capability would be a deciding factor as well.

 

[LLivery]

So double deckers to Switzerland and Frankfurt and e320s everywhere else?

Quite possibly if the e320s aren't permitted to run south of Paris. For Switzerland specifically I expect ETCS Level 2/3 capability would be a deciding factor as well.

Eurostar CEO has said on a Linkedin post:

The new trains, named “Eurostar Celestia”, will operate seamlessly across all five countries currently served by Eurostar plus the new destinations of Frankfurt and Geneva. For the first time double decker passenger trains will operate simultaneously through the Channel Tunnel and on the UK, French, Belgian, German, Dutch and Swiss networks.

So, yep.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

It does make me wonder again if Lyria will last as its own brand in the long term

 

[frankmoh]

All this swapping around between e300 and e320 vs 373 and 374 is confusing me. Which is more "correct" when speaking about the train? British or French?

I hope the render isn't the new livery because it's a bit bland.

I know that trains across England (and of course Europe) don't need yellow fronts anymore, but it was nice to see how the 373 and 374 incorporated the yellow into their liveries.

 

[AdamWW]

All this swapping around between e300 and e320 vs 373 and 374 is confusing me. Which is more "correct" when speaking about the train? British or French?

Marketing name vs TOPS class.

Take your pick...

I don't think there are grounds to say that either is more correct.

 

[sad1e]

Marketing name vs TOPS class.

Speaking of tops classes I wonder what TOPS number they'll give these new sets considering 375 is already taken.

 

[Trainguy34]

Speaking of tops classes I wonder what TOPS number they'll give these new sets considering 375 is already taken.

873 maybe? Would fit in with the current trend of just replacing the 3 with an 8 on new classes (897 etc).