Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the most important issue is that Channel Tunnel Eurostars carry far more luggage than double deck TGV's day-in, day-out. The nightmare of groups with huge amounts of luggage trying to get up and down the stairs!

Indeed, and double deckers usually have poor luggage space due to the lack of overheads, while Eurostar's units presently have large overheads.

 

[Pdf]

I think that Brits will love the top deck experience and start lobbying for them on the UK lines that they'll fit on (HS1 and HS2).

Increased dwell time is also an argument against double decker trains. JR gave up on them on the Shinkansen for this reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Increased dwell time is also an argument against double decker trains. JR gave up on them on the Shinkansen for this reason.

Dwell time isn't really relevant on services with so few stops, though. Eurostar isn't Shinkansen. Shinkansen is more like a super fast long distance Elizabeth Line operationally.

 

[LLivery]

However the PBA and PBKA sets ate vastly short on luggage space, so a more limited uplift in seat capacity while offering a larger uplift in luggage capacity makes sense.

That's what I'm thinking.

Pity about the all over grey livery - good graff canvas as long as the windows are not obscured!

Seeing they haven't don't any real livery changes since the new brand launch, I imagine that they're planning a new one.

 

[DelW]

I think that Brits will love the top deck experience and start lobbying for them on the UK lines that they'll fit on (HS1 and HS2).

A while ago, I asked on another thread about the possibility of double deck stock on HS1 domestic services and was told it should be possible except for the problem that many of the services deviate onto the older lines.

Surely domestic double deckers would be restricted to London - Birmingham and London - Ashford? The former might be viable, but I don't think the latter would be.

 

[NCT]

The whole thing is designed to sound more exciting than it actually is. Assuming the 50 units replace the 26 Thalys PBA/PBKAs and the 11 Class 373s, then there's hardly any increase in the overall train meterage. There is an incremental increase in seating capacity per equivalent 200m unit, but that's about it.

Expect a lot of fun with passengers dragging their suitcases down into the train from 760mm platforms only to then drag them all the way up, then struggling to find space for them. They will be fine operating into Netherlands technically - A) the Avelia Horizon is a pretty lightweight train with compliant axle loads for high-speed lines, and B) there's active suspension in the accessible car which raises the floor level so that the step(ramp) down from a 760mm platform is within the maximum allowed.

Given Eurostar's point-to-point operating model, they get away with long dwells.

 

[Warrior2852]

A while ago, I asked on another thread about the possibility of double deck stock on HS1 domestic services and was told it should be possible except for the problem that many of the services deviate onto the older lines.

Every HS1 domestic service goes onto traditional lines with the smaller loading gauge. Either coming off at Ebbsfleet to head towards Faversham, or coming off at Ashford to head towards Ramsgate/Margate via Canterbury West or Dover Priory. No domestic services run exclusively on HS1 under normal operation, so you can't use any trains that are larger than the usual British loading gauge on them.

 

[Amalie]

So they would have to order something else if they wanted to run new trains to Amsterdam? How would that work if they mention ordering an extra 20 trains which won’t even work to Holland

It wouldn’t be the first time this happened. There are concerns about the ICE-L on Dutch tracks due to its axle load.

Pity about the all over grey livery - good graff canvas as long as the windows are not obscured!

This seems to be initial artist rendering and very hopefully not an indicator of the final livery.

It all depends on axle load. As long as they keep the train in class C2 (up to 20 t per axle), there will be no restrictions. I believe the current Duplex trains are around 17t, so I don't think it will be an issue.

I heard concerns that the weight may be too high when it’s filled with passengers, because a double decker carriage carries more people. Would you think this is a concern?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

So this order is replacing the e300s (11), the PBA (9) and the PBKA (17). That is 48 200m equivalent trains being replaced by 30 new trains, or at most 50 if all options are used.

Jon Worth reckons that the thirty trains are not enough to replace the e300s as well as the PBAs and PBKAs.

Eurostar merged in 2023 with Thalys, and it is the ex-Thalys trains that operate only in Continental Europe that are most in need of replacement. It has 9 200m long PBA trains, and 17 200m long PBKA trains in that fleet, so 26 trains in total. The order of 30 200m long Avelia Horizon is just basically replacing the ex-Thalys fleet, with an extra route Amsterdam-Geneva also to be worked on.


In other words, what Eurostar is ordering here might never be used in the Channel Tunnel.


For Channel Tunnel routes Eurostar’s 17 400m long Siemens e320 trains are only a decade old, so will continue to run for many years yet. But Eurostar also has 8 remaining 400m long e300 TMST trains that are reaching the end of their life, and given the Avelia Horizon trains are 200m long you would need 16 trains to replace those e300s, plus ideally a few more for suggested route expansions from London to Frankfurt and Geneva. So the 20 extra trains option in the order with Alstom covers that.

Eurostar ordering just 30 Alstom trains: pragmatism, and a lack of ambition

Put all the rhetoric to one side. In announcing today they are ordering 30 Alstom Avelia Horizon (TGV-M) double decker trains (see the FT here), with only options for 20 more, Eurostar is being less ambitious than has been rumoured for more than a year, where the talk was

jonworth.eu

 

[Trainbike46]

Jon Worth reckons that the thirty trains are not enough to replace the e300s as well as the PBAs and PBKAs.

Eurostar ordering just 30 Alstom trains: pragmatism, and a lack of ambition

Put all the rhetoric to one side. In announcing today they are ordering 30 Alstom Avelia Horizon (TGV-M) double decker trains (see the FT here), with only options for 20 more, Eurostar is being less ambitious than has been rumoured for more than a year, where the talk was

jonworth.eu

Clearly he is right - if Eurostar wants to replace all existing 48 200m equivalent trains they will need to use all the options. The point really is that this order doesn't allow service growth at all. Eurostar has already withdrawn routes due to insufficient trains (the Amsterdam-south of France summer service), and the trains being more useful on "core" Amsterdam-Paris and Germany-Brussels-Paris services. Unless availability will be a lot better, there simply aren't enough trains in this order to significantly increase services, reinstate cancelled services, or serve new destinations. To enable growth, there should have been more options (e.g. another 20 options on top of the current order)

 

[quantinghome]

They must have specified a very low density interior. The BBC article states 1080 seats on a 400m train. SNCF claim 740 for a 200m latest generation TGV M, so 1480 seats for a 400m train.

1080 seats is not much more than the 902 of a class 374 (e320).

It's a 20% uplift on the e320s. Looking at the trains it will actually replace, it's a 35% uplift on the PBA/PBKA units (400 seats) and more than a 40% uplift on the e300s (758 seats).

740 seats is the capacity of a high density layout Avelia - i.e. Ouigo / Lumo, no first class. I think there's a case to be made for that kind of service on the three capitals routes, but it's not really Eurostar's business model.

 

[SHD]

It wouldn’t be the first time this happened. There are concerns about the ICE-L on Dutch tracks due to its axle load.


This seems to be initial artist rendering and very hopefully not an indicator of the final livery.


I heard concerns that the weight may be too high when it’s filled with passengers, because a double decker carriage carries more people. Would you think this is a concern?

Duplex TGVs, with their axle load of 17t/axle have been built and operating on high-speed lines for almost three decades now.
The maximum axle load of HSL Zuid is 17 t/axle.

Now, looking at the definition of axle load:

"Axle load is based on design mass in working order for power heads (and for P2 locomotives) and operational mass under normal payload for vehicles capable of carrying a payload of passengers or luggage as defined in section 2.1 of EN 15663:2009+AC:2010."

Let's dig into EN 15663... oh, it is being superseded by ISO 10516:2025, never mind, doesn't really change the gist of the matter.
(I loathe the fact that one must pay to access EN or ISO norms of that kind).
Fortunately I got an excerpt regarding the hypotheses on passenger mass, 2018 revision : https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/sampl...73dde530810/SIST-EN-15663-2017-oprA1-2018.pdf





As you can see, the threshold of 17t/axle must be attained considering normal operational payload, with 80% of seats occupied. Exceptional payload takes into account 320 kg of passengers per square meter!.

In France, "surcharge" (overload) conditions are activated when there are 40 (four-zero) standing passengers per TGV coach. In that case, the speed on high-speed lines is restricted to 160 km/h IIRC.

Note : there may be more severe restrictions on axle loads in the Netherlands due to railbridges.

 

[DanielB]

Definitely, but the high speed line has its own requirements. A huge part of the country is on soft soil which limits the speed of trains, especially if they’re heavy. For the high speed line built on polders, this can be even more restrictive.

The high speed line has a foundation of concrete piles on which a concrete slab was installed where the tracks are on, so wouldn't expect axle load issues there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

Note : there may be more severe restrictions on axle loads in the Netherlands due to railbridges.

The axle load restrictions in the Netherlands are mainly related to problems with embankments. Due to climate change and longer dry periods, the clay in the ground dries out and thus shrinks, affecting the stability of the embankment on top of it.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Jon Worth reckons that the thirty trains are not enough to replace the e300s as well as the PBAs and PBKAs.

Eurostar ordering just 30 Alstom trains: pragmatism, and a lack of ambition

Put all the rhetoric to one side. In announcing today they are ordering 30 Alstom Avelia Horizon (TGV-M) double decker trains (see the FT here), with only options for 20 more, Eurostar is being less ambitious than has been rumoured for more than a year, where the talk was

jonworth.eu

I was in the process of writing something similar. Jon Worth is definitely worth (haha) a follow on social media if you're interested in Eurostar and other international rail services.

This is an operation focused on defending profitability, not growth.
The talk of expanding Temple Mills may be as much about trying to disrupt new entrants as it is about operational needs (especially if these new trains are mostly replacing trains on routes that do not involve London.

 

[43096]

So Eurostar / SNCF Group have done exactly what I said they would in the speculative thread on this subject a while back. Railcolor reports that this is a call-off of further options from SNCF’s existing framework contract for 200 sets with Alstom. It takes the total of firm orders from the contract to 145.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is also the issue of the local specifications for operation in the Channel Tunnel (fire risk, evacuation rules etc).
While these constraints are probably less than was the case for class 373/374 procurement, it might still constrain fleet operation.
It remains to be seen if this fleet will be wholly suitable for the tunnel, or whether a special microfleet will be designated for it.

Interesting also that Alstom describe these trains as part of the Avelia (Horizon) family, while Eurostar calls the new fleet Celestia.
All the production will be in France.

The Virgin group bid for HS1 paths also includes 12 Avelia family trains from Alstom, but presumably single deck.

 

[Thirteen]

I hope the render isn't the new livery because it's a bit bland.

 

[signed]

I hope the render isn't the new livery because it's a bit bland.

It's an artist's impression

 

[Technologist]

They must have specified a very low density interior. The BBC article states 1080 seats on a 400m train. SNCF claim 740 for a 200m latest generation TGV M, so 1480 seats for a 400m train.

1080 seats is not much more than the 902 of a class 374 (e320).

The figures for 740 seats will be for an all second class "Ouigo" seat arrangement. TGV Duplex seats 644 when configured for Ouigo and 510 when configured for SNCF. If I recall correctly on the Duplex they have an entire upper deck taken up by a cafe so there is plenty of scope for adding extra seats.

Just taking a TGV Duplex and adding another passenger car in would get you 715 seats, so they must have squeezed some extra rows in either by making the seats smaller, making the seat backs thinner or removing some equipment and luggage racks.

Taking a standard SNCF arrangement and scaling it gets you 1150 for a double TGV-M so the difference to 1080 is easily accounted by a slightly higher mix of first class seats.

This whole thing also feels "dirty" a locomotive replacing an EMU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This whole thing also feels "dirty" a locomotive replacing an EMU.

What is being replaced has power cars. They're technically EMUs, but so are these new ones.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, the only non-locomotive Eurostar stock, the class 374 e320s, is staying. Though personally I would have preferred a large order for more velaros for Eurostar, they're not replacing any EMUs with loco-hauled stock.

 

[superalbs]

Yes, the only non-locomotive Eurostar stock, the class 374 e320s, is staying. Though personally I would have preferred a large order for more velaros for Eurostar, they're not replacing any EMUs with loco-hauled stock.

None of the trains used by Eurostar in passenger service have locomotives. Nor do any of the trains ordered.

Agreed they should have gone for Velaros though, a double-deck train isn't going to be a nice surprise for those paying £220 for a second class ticket...

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of the trains used by Eurostar in passenger service have locomotives. Nor do any of the trains ordered.

They have power cars which sit in that middle area. Most people consider HST power cars, which are analogous, to be Class 43 locomotives.

 

[SHD]

Yes, the only non-locomotive Eurostar stock, the class 374 e320s, is staying. Though personally I would have preferred a large order for more velaros for Eurostar, they're not replacing any EMUs with loco-hauled stock.

And how would you refer to the "locomotive" of E300/PBA/PBKA?

We all know that the classic TGV arrangement (*) is to concentrate traction with two power cars and a fixed rake of articulated cars (and, to be pedantic to the extreme, articulated TGV bogies are not Jacobs bogies). Still, no-one outside of forums insists that TGVs are locomotive-hauled trains.

(*) note that the first and last bogie of TGV PSE rakes of cars were powered

 

[Bletchleyite]

And how would you refer to the "locomotive" of E300/PBA/PBKA?

The term "power car" is usually used for these.

 

[Trainbike46]

And how would you refer to the "locomotive" of E300/PBA/PBKA?

As Bletchleyite has already pointed out, the powercar at each end of all three those train types is essentially a locomotive.

If you do not consider it a locomotive, then the powercars of the new Avelia horizon/Eurostar Celestia trains aren't locomotives either.

 

[Austriantrain]

Though personally I would have preferred a large order for more velaros for Eurostar,

The one large Siemens order was probably blasphemy enough.

 

[SHD]

As Bletchleyite has already pointed out, the powercar at each end of all three those train types is essentially a locomotive.

If you do not consider it a locomotive, then the powercars of the new Avelia horizon/Eurostar Celestia trains aren't locomotives either.

I know very well what they "essentially" are, I'm pointing out that they never operate outside of the fixed formation arrangement. It is a very peculiar UK rail forum habit to consider the TGV as a loco-hauled train rather than as an EMU. (I remember reading about this debate on the uk.railway newsgroup, which doesn't make me younger, alas).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know very well what they "essentially" are, I'm pointing out that they never operate outside of the fixed formation arrangement. It is a very peculiar UK rail forum habit to consider the TGV as a loco-hauled train rather than as an EMU. (I remember reading about this debate on the uk.railway newsgroup, which doesn't make me younger, alas).

The debate is exactly the same as the one questioning whether an HST is LHCS or a DEMU. The reality is that it's a bit of both.

The TMST/Class 373 is a bit of an oddity, though, in that there is also kit relating to moving the train in the end of the end passenger coach as well as the power car.

 

[superalbs]

As Bletchleyite has already pointed out, the powercar at each end of all three those train types is essentially a locomotive.

If you do not consider it a locomotive, then the powercars of the new Avelia horizon/Eurostar Celestia trains aren't locomotives either.

Correct, they are just units.

The 373 even goes as far as having traction equipment in one of the passenger carrying vehicles, they couldn't be more of a unit if they tried!