December 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed changes only

[Ellis101]

Looks like Avanti are now showing pick up/set down at Liverpool South Parkway.

I'm still quite sceptical to this considering looking for tickets on the 15th December from LPY - EUS most are sold out or showing anytime singles only.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Darlaston and Willenhall only have 1tph in RTT, the Shrewsbury to New Street via Tame Bridge stopper; is the Walsall – Wolverhampton avoiding Birmingham service still supposed to start in the coming timetable period?

From the following news report the train service for these two new stations has not yet been decided. Clearly they will not be open for the December 2025 timetable change so this could be something to watch for in the May 2026 timetable change.

Services at two new stations for Walsall may not call at town

It costs £80m to build Willenhall and Darlaston but services may miss out Walsall’s main station.

www.bbc.co.uk

A West Midlands Rail Executive spokesperson said there were clear proposals to introduce a second train service that has a direct connection to Walsall's main station and it was working with others to get those proposals delivered.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: "No decisions have been made on timetables for Willenhall and Darlaston.
"We're working closely with West Midlands Trains, the West Midlands Rail Executive and other stakeholders to maximise connections for customers at the new stations."

 

[Class 170101]

From the following news report the train service for these two new stations has not yet been decided. Clearly they will not be open for the December 2025 timetable change so this could be something to watch for in the May 2026 timetable change.

I thought it had already been decided what services were calling there. Looks like a Shrewsbury service and I thought the Crewe to Stafford service was going back to New Street via this route. I don't recall there being any direct links between Walsall and Wolverhampton via Darlaston being planned.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I thought it had already been decided what services were calling there. Looks like a Shrewsbury service and I thought the Crewe to Stafford service was going back to New Street via this route. I don't recall there being any direct links between Walsall and Wolverhampton via Darlaston being planned.

The new Darlaston and Willenhall Stations are on the line used by one of the two West Midlands trains each hour between Birmingham New Street and Shrewsbury, the train that calls at Tame Bridge Parkway, so that train would just need to call additionally at Darlaston and Willenhall. AIUI the plan was always to have this and a second train service each hour at the two stations which would be Walsall-Darlaston-Willenhall-Wolverhampton so the two new stations would have a hourly train service to Walsall.

 

[Scotrail88]

With Scarborough losing its 802s - is this to enable more ECML to Redcar be operated under electric and have faster speeds?

 

[KN94]

With Scarborough losing its 802s - is this to enable more ECML to Redcar be operated under electric and have faster speeds?

No - the 802 from Scarborough will be on the Hull's.

 

[Kite159]

Logically using the 802s on Redcar services would be better than Hull. Just so it can use the wires from the Church Fenton area* to Northallerton. Reducing diesels under the wires

(* Assuming those wires have gone live and are available for 802s to change on the move)

 

[Watershed]

Logically using the 802s on Redcar services would be better than Hull. Just so it can use the wires from the Church Fenton area* to Northallerton. Reducing diesels under the wires

(* Assuming those wires have gone live and are available for 802s to change on the move)

Unfortunately the driver links at York depot are set up poorly for this. The 802 link only signs Newcastle, not Redcar. The rest of the depot (the former 68/Mk5 link) signs Redcar/Saltburn but not 802s...

 

[td97]

Logically using the 802s on Redcar services would be better than Hull. Just so it can use the wires from the Church Fenton area* to Northallerton. Reducing diesels under the wires

(* Assuming those wires have gone live and are available for 802s to change on the move)

The difference in electrified mileages for each route is

• Hull to Liverpool
  • Liverpool to Stalybridge (39mi)
• Redcar to Manchester Airport
  • Stalybridge to Manchester Airport (21mi)
  • Church Fenton to Northallerton (40mi)

 

[Danfilm007]

There's hardly any difference between using bi-modes for

• Hull to Liverpool
  • Liverpool to Stalybridge (58mi)
• Redcar to Manchester Airport
  • Stalybridge to Manchester Airport (21mi)
  • Church Fenton to Northallerton (40⅓mi)

But those kinds of distances are still quite reasonable for running electric vs diesel?

 

[Scotrail88]

There's hardly any difference between using bi-modes for

• Hull to Liverpool
  • Liverpool to Stalybridge (58mi)
• Redcar to Manchester Airport
  • Stalybridge to Manchester Airport (21mi)
  • Church Fenton to Northallerton (40⅓mi)

Thanks

Suppose irrespective of which alternative, there is a fair amount more benefit of the 802 on those than Scarborough

 

[Class 466]

Thanks

Suppose irrespective of which alternative, there is a fair amount more benefit of the 802 on those than Scarborough

Definitely- but you need to disregard crew training and depot locations in the process as both are currently incompatible with putting an 802 on Manchester Airport to Redcar services.

 

[DazCM]

Southern changes have appeared online at

https://www.southernrailway.com/service-updates/timetables

The one that had piqued my interest is the re-introduction of half hourly services on the East Grinstead branch during Monday to Friday daytimes, but apparently only during school holidays. During term time it says half hourly on Thursdays and Fridays only.

How’s that going to work then?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Southern changes have appeared online at

https://www.southernrailway.com/service-updates/timetables

The one that had piqued my interest is the re-introduction of half hourly services on the East Grinstead branch during Monday to Friday daytimes, but apparently only during school holidays. During term time it says half hourly on Thursdays and Fridays only.

How’s that going to work then?

I’m unsure how what you’re asking how will this work?

The trains will run on all Thursdays and Fridays and then additionally on Mondays to Wednesdays during school
Holidays.

 

[bramling]

I’m unsure how what you’re asking how will this work?

The trains will run on all Thursdays and Fridays and then additionally on Mondays to Wednesdays during school
Holidays.

There does come a point when one has to ask whether the extra complexity, both operationally and for the user, is worth the cost saving.

 

[DazCM]

I’m unsure how what you’re asking how will this work?

The trains will run on all Thursdays and Fridays and then additionally on Mondays to Wednesdays during school
Holidays.

Sorry, my poor choice of phrase.

I’ve just never known the railway to differentiate services between school holidays and term times to such a massive extent before.

 

[dk1]

Sorry, my poor choice of phrase.

I’ve just never known the railway to differentiate services between school holidays and term times to such a massive extent before.

That’s very much a bus thing and causes much confusion and inconvenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s very much a bus thing and causes much confusion and inconvenience.

Does it though? Most rail passengers use a journey planner these days, so you could make it different every day of the year and people probably wouldn't really be that bothered.

For buses by contrast people tend just to go to the stop around the time they usually do and are confused if a bus doesn't show up.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does it though? Most rail passengers use a journey planner these days, so you could make it different every day of the year and people probably wouldn't really be that bothered.

For buses by contrast people tend just to go to the stop around the time they usually do and are confused if a bus doesn't show up.

Commuters are likely to be somewhat more confused. I don't look at a journey planner every day just whether the train is running or not! So I'd be somewhat irritated if I had to remember five different (ten in reality with the journey back) departure times!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Commuters are likely to be somewhat more confused. I don't look at a journey planner every day just whether the train is running or not! So I'd be somewhat irritated if I had to remember five different (ten in reality with the journey back) departure times!

True, but these journeys are off peak so don't really affect commuters in the traditional sense.

FWIW these days I do look at Realtime Trains to check for short-forms or cancellations before going out just in case those might make me change my plans!

 

[dk1]

Does it though? Most rail passengers use a journey planner these days, so you could make it different every day of the year and people probably wouldn't really be that bothered.

For buses by contrast people tend just to go to the stop around the time they usually do and are confused if a bus doesn't show up.

It’s the throwing the regular timetable out that makes it a pain. When you know there’s a service at say 18 past each hour then suddenly no 15:18 its a pest. I personally have no idea when school holidays are apart from roughly Summer & Christmas. Railways just usually run everything regardless which is great.

 

[Horizon22]

There does come a point when one has to ask whether the extra complexity, both operationally and for the user, is worth the cost saving.

Is it that complex? You can easily build diagrams for each day, it probably just needs some changes for Monday mornings and Wednesday mornings respectively, which is probably a diagram or two from Selhurst amended. Nothing too complicated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==

Commuters are likely to be somewhat more confused. I don't look at a journey planner every day just whether the train is running or not! So I'd be somewhat irritated if I had to remember five different (ten in reality with the journey back) departure times!

These appear to be off-peak amendments only though, so commuters will not generally be impacted. If it is part of the LTP then it will be fine, but no doubt some local publicity would be helpful so as to not catch some people out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==

Railways just usually run everything regardless which is great.

Which arguably isn't always ineffecient and for lightly-loaded trains and might be an "quick win" saving, even if relatively minor.

At least this is bring back some trains (if not all) as opposed to removing trains.

 

[mangyiscute]

Plenty of train companies offer summer-only services, which I'm sure some year-round travellers get and then get confused about where their train went—it's just natural for public transport operations. We need to be more flexible to adapt to changing travel patterns.

 

[jfollows]

Plenty of train companies offer summer-only services, which I'm sure some year-round travellers get and then get confused about where their train went—it's just natural for public transport operations. We need to be more flexible to adapt to changing travel patterns.

Perhaps, but saying “only during school holidays” is vague and confusing.
There are many of us who have no interest or knowledge in when schools are on holiday, so I trust it’s clearly communicated in actual timetables in proper terms. I’m assuming the phrase was only used to summarise the particular timetable change.

 

[D1537]

I’m unsure how what you’re asking how will this work?

The trains will run on all Thursdays and Fridays and then additionally on Mondays to Wednesdays during school
Holidays.

Let's hope that none of the stations served by those trains are on the border of two counties that have, for example, different Easter school holidays next year, then - that could get confusing for people.

Like, for example, East and West Sussex...

 

[Magdalia]

The one that had piqued my interest is the re-introduction of half hourly services on the East Grinstead branch during Monday to Friday daytimes, but apparently only during school holidays. During term time it says half hourly on Thursdays and Fridays only.

How’s that going to work then?

This is an interesting development, and it will be interesting to see if it happens elsewhere.

Here in the Cambridge area train usage is very different between term time, when the railway has lots of students travelling to/from college, and school holidays, when there are a lot more young people and families making leisure trips, especially to/from London.

But my experience is that the operators will struggle to run more trains in school holidays because they won't have enough drivers. In particular the drivers with children will be wanting to do the leisure trips, not drive the trains.

 

[dk1]

This is an interesting development, and it will be interesting to see if it happens elsewhere.

Here in the Cambridge area train usage is very different between term time, when the railway has lots of students travelling to/from college, and school holidays, when there are a lot more young people and families making leisure trips, especially to/from London.

But my experience is that the operators will struggle to run more trains in school holidays because they won't have enough drivers. In particular the drivers with children will be wanting to do the leisure trips, not drive the trains.

That seems to be much more a GTR problem than a GA one.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps, but saying “only during school holidays” is vague and confusing.
There are many of us who have no interest or knowledge in when schools are on holiday, so I trust it’s clearly communicated in actual timetables in proper terms. I’m assuming the phrase was only used to summarise the particular timetable change.

The use of school days / school holidays is already often used by public transport operators, it’s a very common differential used by bus companies.

Buses are the most heavily used form of public transport in UK so if their users can cope I’m sure so can rail users.

 

[D1537]

The use of school days / school holidays is already often used by public transport operators, it’s a very common differential used by bus companies.

Buses are the most heavily used form of public transport in UK so if their users can cope I’m sure so can rail users.

As I mentioned above, school holidays can change across county boundaries. This usually isn't an issue with local services such as buses (and a lot of their services are specifically school services anyway).

 

[sjm77]

• Hull to Liverpool
  • Liverpool to Stalybridge (58mi)
• Redcar to Manchester Airport
  • Stalybridge to Manchester Airport (21mi)
  • Church Fenton to Northallerton (40⅓mi)

Actually I think that Liverpool to Stalybridge is only 39.5 miles