December 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed changes only

[elltrain3]

After the downgrade of the Birkenhead-Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Paddington service in 1967, Wrexham only had 1tp2h (initially just to Wolverhampton).
There were no through trains beyond Chester until ATW switched the Holyhead-Crewe/Birmingham service to run via Wrexham in 2004, with trains in the opposite hour running to Cardiff to give 1tph Chester-Shrewsbury.

Before 1967, apart from the 2-hourly Paddington through services, there were odd trains from Birkenhead/Chester to Oswestry/Shrewsbury/Bala/Barmouth, but they didn't add up to a regular 1tph, much less 2tph service.
Even pre-BR there were never any through services between Wrexham and the North Wales coast.

The recent TfW plan was to extend the Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool service alternately to Llandudno and Wrexham (originally to Shrewsbury/Cardiff), but the Crewe-Chester-Wrexham shuttle seems to be the current plan.
All part of the North Wales Metro it seems.

Facinating stuff, so in theory this is the first time since 1967 Wrexham has had anything close to a 2tph service on the Main line, incredible!

I knew of the plans to extend the liverpool's up the coast but the plans have fallen quiet, my guess is its due in a more advanced stage of the "North Wales Metro"

Interesting… will be handy for Wrexham having the direct Crewe link. And this removes the quirk of TfW operating an England-only service

What will use that bay now?

I saw somone mention what use the Bay would have at Chester, I suspect that it will become a valuable asset as at the moment the Northern's to Leeds & Manchester, and the TFW To Liverpool have to fight for a bay, so I suspect they will use it, though i've seen increasing use of the bay by the Avanti 805s when they run a 5-Cars (something that the 221s did constantly but hadn't happened with the 805s) so we could see increased use of it by them, but time will tell!

 

[SeanM1997]

Not sure if its been covered but looks like the Caledonian Sleeper between London Euston and Aberdeen / Fort William / Inverness will call at Birmingham International Monday-Friday & Sunday from December 2025 according to Real Time Trains

 

[Cach17]

Not sure if its been covered but looks like the Caledonian Sleeper between London Euston and Aberdeen / Fort William / Inverness will call at Birmingham International Monday-Friday & Sunday from December 2025 according to Real Time Trains

It has. Post #37

 

[Gricer99]

It would seem that despite electrifying the Wigan NW to Bolton line, there will be no timetable changes to better use this. I was expecting at least a half hourly Wigan NW to Stalybridge service with 323s. Has this quietly been dropped?

 

[Kite159]

It would seem that despite electrifying the Wigan NW to Bolton line, there will be no timetable changes to better use this. I was expecting at least a half hourly Wigan NW to Stalybridge service with 323s. Has this quietly been dropped?

I think the official line is the timetable recast is still to come, although no doubt if Northern do introduce 2tph Stalybridge - Wigan NW, the Southport Users Group will kick up a storm about losing their direct connection to Ashton Under Lyme

 

[Llandudno]

I think the official line is the timetable recast is still to come, although no doubt if Northern do introduce 2tph Stalybridge - Wigan NW, the Southport Users Group will kick up a storm about losing their direct connection to Ashton Under Lyme

Or even Ashton under Lyne!

 

[Peter A]

Something to note is that from December, TPE's utilisation of its 802 fleet improves massively and so does capacity on the Liverpool to Hull service as a result.

Currently one 802 is used on Scarborough to Manchester Victoria services which spends most of the AM peak on layover at Victoria and the PM peak on layover at Scarborough - this will now be a 185 in the new timetable (which also sees the 05:35 from Newcastle revised to begin from Darlington, and the 20:45 from Victoria routed to Scarborough instead of Newcastle).

On the Liverpool to Hull's, currently one 802 has layover from 16:25 to 20:03 while the 14:03/15:03 from Hull and 16:54/17:54 from Liverpool are both single 185's. From December, there will be 4 x 802 diagrams compared to the current 3, with no additional layover at Hull, meaning pretty much all journeys between Liverpool and Hull will be either 802's or 2 x 185's with the exception of the 18:54 Liverpool to Hull (the 2nd set goes to Cleethorpes) and the Hull to Leeds evening shuttles.

And of course an additional 802 will be brought into use on Newcastle to Edinburgh (the operation of which is now much more interlinked with Liverpool to Newcastle).

 

[dodecahedron67]

And of course an additional 802 will be brought into use on Newcastle to Edinburgh (the operation of which is now much more interlinked with Liverpool to Newcastle).

They’re actually less interlinked. Only one train operates Edinburgh - Newcastle - Liverpool and reverse each day (9N12 > 9M14 and 9E11 > 9S15), down from 2 SB (9N05 > 9M08, 9M21) and 2 NB (9E04 > 9S09, 9E17 > 9S21) currently

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Something to note is that from December, TPE's utilisation of its 802 fleet improves massively and so does capacity on the Liverpool to Hull service as a result.

Currently one 802 is used on Scarborough to Manchester Victoria services which spends most of the AM peak on layover at Victoria and the PM peak on layover at Scarborough - this will now be a 185 in the new timetable (which also sees the 05:35 from Newcastle revised to begin from Darlington, and the 20:45 from Victoria routed to Scarborough instead of Newcastle).

On the Liverpool to Hull's, currently one 802 has layover from 16:25 to 20:03 while the 14:03/15:03 from Hull and 16:54/17:54 from Liverpool are both single 185's. From December, there will be 4 x 802 diagrams compared to the current 3, with no additional layover at Hull, meaning pretty much all journeys between Liverpool and Hull will be either 802's or 2 x 185's with the exception of the 18:54 Liverpool to Hull (the 2nd set goes to Cleethorpes) and the Hull to Leeds evening shuttles.

And of course an additional 802 will be brought into use on Newcastle to Edinburgh (the operation of which is now much more interlinked with Liverpool to Newcastle).

Does that mean no more 802s booked to Scarborough?

 

[Class 466]

Does that mean no more 802s booked to Scarborough?

Yes, although they'll be on there during any Calder Valley diversions as per the current timetable.

 

[Adam Evans]

Yes, although they'll be on there during any Calder Valley diversions as per the current timetable.

I always thought it was silly to put 802s on the Scarborough route given that from Victoria to the East there's no or next to no wires that the 802s could realistically use and so it will running on diesel all the way through with no sections for the pantograph to go up.

Same applies to the TPE Hull route, but at least they'll use the section between Liverpool and Stalybridge.

I'm surprised that no 802s are used on the TPE Airport to Redcar services though as they'll have the sections between MIA - Stalybridge and then York to Northallerton where they can use the OHLE.

Anyone else have any more information?

 

[Class 466]

I always thought it was silly to put 802s on the Scarborough route given that from Victoria to the East there's no or next to no wires that the 802s could realistically use and so it will running on diesel all the way through with no sections for the pantograph to go up.

Same applies to the TPE Hull route, but at least they'll use the section between Liverpool and Stalybridge.

I'm surprised that no 802s are used on the TPE Airport to Redcar services though as they'll have the sections between MIA - Stalybridge and then York to Northallerton where they can use the OHLE.

Anyone else have any more information?

Depot Locations play a big part in it - Redcar to Manchester Airport is fairly self contained as a service group and both its nearest depots are 185 Depots. Hull to Liverpool has Edge Hill and then the early Morning/Late evening services terminating at Leeds naturally make allocating 802s from Doncaster easier. Scarborough only had one allocated via the diversion of a service to/from Scarborough to Newcastle instead.

802s now utilise OHLE from Stalybridge through to Liverpool on Hull & Newcastle Services.

 

[hux385]

The Avanti Glasgow-Brum-Euston services are now showing. These are the two services that were restored at the May 25 timetable change (I think that was deemed temporary, but going forward from December they are firm rights, although I'm happy to be corrected). Annoyingly, they have dreadful departure times of 0938 and 1336. It's better than nothing at all I suppose...

Blackpool still seems to be missing it's midday Avanti fast service though??

 

[Some guy]

The Avanti Glasgow-Brum-Euston services are now showing. These are the two services that were restored at the May 25 timetable change (I think that was deemed temporary, but going forward from December they are firm rights, although I'm happy to be corrected). Annoyingly, they have dreadful departure times of 0938 and 1336. It's better than nothing at all I suppose...

Blackpool still seems to be missing it's midday Avanti fast service though??

Still can’t even add the Lancaster stop on the 9:38 and even worse the 13:36 can’t even call at Penrith despite it has 7 minutes layover in oxenholme

 

[hexagon789]

Still can’t even add the Lancaster stop on the 9:38 and even worse the 13:36 can’t even call at Penrith despite it has 7 minutes layover in oxenholme

Presumably because they didn't previously call at Lancaster and if they ever regain their traditional paths off Glasgow Central, approx 20 mins later, they wouldn't be able to call anyway.

 

[Peter A]

They’re actually less interlinked. Only one train operates Edinburgh - Newcastle - Liverpool and reverse each day (9N12 > 9M14 and 9E11 > 9S15), down from 2 SB (9N05 > 9M08, 9M21) and 2 NB (9E04 > 9S09, 9E17 > 9S21) currently

Sorry, yes didn't explain that last point very well, fewer overall interlinking, but it now occurs during the day rather than just first/last trains running onto/off Edinburgh's.

Another point of note is that an 802 will now stable overnight at Siemens in York.

 

[ayubdaud]

Looks like Avanti are now showing pick up/set down at Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[moonarrow458]

Looks like Avanti are now showing pick up/set down at Liverpool South Parkway.

Interesting also to see that Avanti will have 1tpd on weekdays in each direction calling at Hartford.
The 07:40 Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston (1A10) calling at Hartford at 08:10 arriving into London at 10:03

In the evening northbound the 18:43 Euston to Liverpool Lime Street service (1F34) will call at Hartford at 20:47

Wonder what has motivated that?

 

[Harpo]

Interesting also to see that Avanti will have 1tpd on weekdays in each direction calling at Hartford.
The 07:40 Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston (1A10) calling at Hartford at 08:10 arriving into London at 10:03

In the evening northbound the 18:43 Euston to Liverpool Lime Street service (1F34) will call at Hartford at 20:47

Wonder what has motivated that?

Contingency by establishing a regular method of working there??

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Hartford has traditionally had services to/from Euston. Provides business travel opportunities for residents of Northwich.

 

[Keithheller]

Been best part of 20 years since Virgin/ Avanti stopped at Hartford. The 1925 Euston- Carlisle used to call there back in’t day!

 

[MontyP]

Presumably because they didn't previously call at Lancaster and if they ever regain their traditional paths off Glasgow Central, approx 20 mins later, they wouldn't be able to call anyway.

The last Glasgow-Birmingham service is at 1557 which is ridiculously early. Was there ever a later service? The 1721 arrival at Glasgow heads off to Polmadie at 1743 so could this set be used for a later passenger working?

 

[dk1]

The last Glasgow-Birmingham service is at 1557 which is ridiculously early. Was there ever a later service? The 1721 arrival at Glasgow heads off to Polmadie at 1743 so could this set be used for a later passenger working?

Is there much demand? It’s still possible to arrive into New Street at 23:07 with one simple change by leaving Glasgow Central at 18:40.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last Glasgow-Birmingham service is at 1557 which is ridiculously early. Was there ever a later service? The 1721 arrival at Glasgow heads off to Polmadie at 1743 so could this set be used for a later passenger working?

December has the last direct at 1840. Not sure where the change comes from, perhaps it saves two minutes or something.

Sorry, ignore me, that's an engineering work timetable with a blockade south of Rugby.

 

[hexagon789]

The last Glasgow-Birmingham service is at 1557 which is ridiculously early. Was there ever a later service? The 1721 arrival at Glasgow heads off to Polmadie at 1743 so could this set be used for a later passenger working?

There used to be a 1740 to Birmingham as well, definitely existed in 2019.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2025 ==

Is there much demand? It’s still possible to arrive into New Street at 23:07 with one simple change by leaving Glasgow Central at 18:40.

Well, there used to be a later service for at least 11 years since the VHF was introduced and still there in 2019.

 

[frodshamfella]

Interesting also to see that Avanti will have 1tpd on weekdays in each direction calling at Hartford.
The 07:40 Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston (1A10) calling at Hartford at 08:10 arriving into London at 10:03

In the evening northbound the 18:43 Euston to Liverpool Lime Street service (1F34) will call at Hartford at 20:47

Wonder what has motivated that?

Thats a good idea. Hartford has become.a busy station . Im.sure that will be will appreciated. BR used to have 1 or 2 Liverpool- Londons that called at Hartford week days.

 

[cle]

I recall the same for Congleton too, plus some cross country services.

Is there much demand? It’s still possible to arrive into New Street at 23:07 with one simple change by leaving Glasgow Central at 18:40.

If one was to do almost a full day's meetings or other business in Glasgow, you would want until at least 4pm at wherever you were. God forbid you grab a drink or bit of food after.

If we are serious about discouraging shorter flights like this (BHX-GLA/EDI firmly being two) - it needs to be more business friendly. People won't change trains, they'll just fly or drive.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think if you go back to the early 1990s at least one of the Merseyside Pullman services called at Hartford. Presumably IC were in direct competition with BA’s Manchester-Heathrow shuttle flights for the lucrative business traffic.

 

[dk1]

Yes I remember Hartford having several IC calls daily in BR days on both the direct Euston as well as via West Midlands routes.

Also selecting 1991 the GBTT shows the last direct Glasgow-Birmingham departure SX as 15:55.

 

[Peter0124]

The old 17:40 Glasgow to Birmingham (9M61) now starts at Crewe at 21:04, pathed as an 80x and runs through to Euston. So they might need to shift stock around to facilitate it back from Glasgow again.

As for the 09:38 (9M53) and 13:36 (9M84), I thought they were meant to be retimed closer to on the hour? Its even tighter now leaving Glasgow a mere 2 minutes after the 09:36 via Trent Valley.