zwk500
Veteran Member
But no customs checks there of course.
As I said, in the current political climate it would need to be visibly staffed at Ashford. Even if it was just 2 or 3 customs agents who watched everybody walk through the green lane.
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Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion
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Trainbike46
Established Member
Customs officers would only need to be provided for arrivals, not for departures.
Morning:
outbound services to Paris, Lille, and Brussels, within 30 minutes of each other.
Staffing needs:
- UK border officials
- French border officials
- Staff for the security check
Total staffing for border/security purposes: likely at least 2 of each of the above categories, so at least 6 people
Evening
return services from Paris, Lille, and Brussels, within 30 minutes of each other
staffing needs:
- UK customs officials
- police if needed
(these roles could both be performed by border force if desired, as border force apparently has customs responsibilities)
Total staffing for border/security purposes: 2x officer of border or other customs type, + police at rare occasions
I suspect the extra costs of French border officials and security check staff would be sufficient to kill off running outbound services in the evening in a financial sense.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Now of course, if the government is providing a subsidy, how many services there will be will simply be a political choice, but more services is likely to require more subsidy.
TheWierdOne
Member
The Times is reporting that Gemini trains have placed an order with Siemens for rolling stock, financed by Rock Rail.
These are reportedly a newer version of the e320/Velaro Novo, of which Gemini is ordering 10, presumably in a shortened version. Other than that the article is very light on detail.
www.thetimes.com
These are reportedly a newer version of the e320/Velaro Novo, of which Gemini is ordering 10, presumably in a shortened version. Other than that the article is very light on detail.
Gemini starts building up its fleet in challenge to Eurostar
The start-up train company, which is partnering with Uber, is working with Siemens on new rolling stock
www.thetimes.com
Snow1964
Established Member
The Times is reporting that Gemini trains have placed an order with Siemens for rolling stock, financed by Rock Rail.
These are reportedly a newer version of the e320/Velaro Novo, of which Gemini is ordering 10, presumably in a shortened version. Other than that the article is very light on detail.
Gemini starts building up its fleet in challenge to Eurostar
The start-up train company, which is partnering with Uber, is working with Siemens on new rolling stock
Bit more info here
Gemini partners with Siemens and Rock Rail
Gemini Trains has confirmed a major partnership with Siemens Mobility and Rock Rail to deliver a new fleet of high-speed trains linking London with Paris, Brussels, and Cologne
www.railwaypro.com
Although not directly related to channel tunnel services, has also been announced that LISEA (consortium led by SPIE Batignolles, which includes Colas Rail) is to build first private maintenance depot in France. It will be at Marshprime in Gironde, and will service trains on new Bordeaux-Tours line. It might be of interest to those worrying about if only national rail provider can build and operate maintenance depots for high speed trains.
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TheWierdOne
Member
Presumably this deal is similar to the exclusivity thingy that Virgin agreed with Alstom? Gemini can’t have been silly enough to lock into a purchase agreement without depot space.Bit more info here
Gemini partners with Siemens and Rock Rail
Gemini Trains has confirmed a major partnership with Siemens Mobility and Rock Rail to deliver a new fleet of high-speed trains linking London with Paris, Brussels, and Cologne
Although not directly related to channel tunnel services, has also been announced that LISEA (consortium led by SPIE Batignolles, which includes Colas Rail) is to build first private maintenance depot in France. It will be at Marshprime in Gironde, and will service trains on new Bordeaux-Tours line. It might be of interest to those worrying about if only national rail provider can build and operate maintenance depots for high speed trains.
On another note, by ordering Siemens Velaros, with all their common maintenance procedures to Eurostar’s fleet, does this give Gemini an edge in the race for space at TMI? Would Gemini be able to say that their fleet is proven (at least partially) to be compatible with TMI whereas the Hitachi and Alstom offerings are new to the depot?
could be argued same kind of situation as each other as i presume Alstom provide parts for the 373's?, novo's are a new design based on the Velaro so not the same as as the existing 374 fleet
Trainbike46
Established Member
New Alstom orders will not be the same platform as the (pretty old now) 373s, while a new velaro would be the same platform as the 374s. The difference in time will make a significant difference in how similar they are.
no im saying the novo's are NOT the same platform as the 374's, its a new design so new parts
Velaro Classic =/= Velaro Novo
Snow1964
Established Member
The Velaro novo, is new generation, there is a test car in an ICE formation. It is open tube concept inside (basically a rectangular tube for seats to be installed in, with all the equipment below floor in passenger areas). It also uses inside frame bogies. Apparently the vehicles are longer at around 28m each. Top speed is either 280 or 320km/h (certified to 360) depending on power installed
The 373s (and Thayls) were a spin off of second generation TGV (the 10car Atlantique sets built 1989-92, and reseau built 1992-95), the latest TGV are considered 5th generation.
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 8,280
The article suggests that trains will start from Stratford. Surely the station will need to be massively expanded to deal with the security and customs for a whole train?The Times is reporting that Gemini trains have placed an order with Siemens for rolling stock, financed by Rock Rail.
These are reportedly a newer version of the e320/Velaro Novo, of which Gemini is ordering 10, presumably in a shortened version. Other than that the article is very light on detail.
Gemini starts building up its fleet in challenge to Eurostar
The start-up train company, which is partnering with Uber, is working with Siemens on new rolling stock
There is some space for customs, but not nearly enough. Most of it is now offices anyway.
Eurostarosaur
Member
Also interesting that they mention using Siemens Velaro will help simplify maintenance operations if they are selected to use Temple Mills, given Eurostar are already operating the Velaro.
So Gemini and Uber have managed to secure a potential deal and will be using trains that Temple Mills might at least partially be familiar with. But the question I ask is whether or not the ORR will believe them to be qualified enough to run the service when up against Virgin who operated one of the country's prime intercity routes for 22 years, or Trenitalia who have even more experience through actually operating open access high speed rail services across Europe? I don't really think having a train ready will be enough for them to be honest, though since I don't claim to be an industry expert I am not going to count them out of the running entirely.
StephenHunter
Established Member
Easy to convert offices into something else.
I suspect you'll find little to no staff commonality between VTE and the virgin franchisees of old.
Perhaps not, but I'd still bet on their chances more just because of a proven ability and capital to attract industry expertise and talents. Even so, it just puts them on the same level as Gemini/Uber at worst, and I'd still bank on Trenitalia getting the space in Temple Mills if they're willing to do stock maintenance there or can at least manage the logistics of getting heavy maintenance done in Milan like the rest of their fleet.
That isn't a measurable criteria for offering them the depot space. In point of fact, the rolling stock they have planned is the least proven of any bidder, being a 26m+ carriage length version of the New Pendolino.
Northumbriana
Member
Blue Banana services:
Manchester - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Karlsruhe - Basel - Milan 1tp2h
Birmingham - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt 1tp2h
Liverpool - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Stuttgart - Munich 1tp2h
No passports, we'll just risk it and assume everyone on board is alright.
Manchester - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Karlsruhe - Basel - Milan 1tp2h
Birmingham - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt 1tp2h
Liverpool - London - Lille - Brussels - Cologne - Stuttgart - Munich 1tp2h
No passports, we'll just risk it and assume everyone on board is alright.
TheGrew
Member
- Joined
- 31 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 519
With HS2 I wonder how difficult it would be to share border staff between Birmingham Airport and Birmingham Interchange (obviously with infrastructure issues resolved!)
I think that sharing staff would be the least of your issues. Birmingham Interchange (which has begun construction) would have to be redesigned to have border facilities. That's going to be a massive job, especially if you need additional segregated platforms and associated high speed trackwork.
TrainTraveler
Member
Personally, I would be happy to join an alternative channel tunnel operator at any of the possible (currently closed) stations on HS2 if it were available and the overall ticketing/cost was reasonable.
To chuck a further complicating factor into the mix, I also wonder if running HS2 trains through to (say) Ashford to allow an interchange with International services would assist in the viability of an alternative operator.
To chuck a further complicating factor into the mix, I also wonder if running HS2 trains through to (say) Ashford to allow an interchange with International services would assist in the viability of an alternative operator.
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I wouldn't say that it's any less proven than the Velaro Novo. The New Pendolino already has 26.2m coaches (ETR 610 for example) and while they have never been specified to run at 300km/h there is no reason they couldn't be built to that standard given that the AGV and New Pendolino platforms have been adopted as part of the wider Avelia platform, and the latter also has a speed record of 293km/h. Adding the AGV motors to a New Pendolino design is technically possible even if it would be the first and possibly only one of it's kind.
TheWierdOne
Member
I think technically speaking the most proven platform is Trenitalia’s Frecciarossa 1000, as that will be the only proposed rolling stock currently in service that is also fitted with the French high speed signalling used in the Chunnel and on HS1. Have the Avelia Stream or Velaro Novo ever used TVM?
Neither exist yet. No Coradia Stream is LGV-ready and of course current gen Velaros run on French TGV daily so they have TVM.
I agree, the Frecciarossa 1000 can be ordered straight off the shelf with the speed and signalling already equipped. Some of the old Velaros like the ICE3 have had TVM 430 but I'm not sure how easily that would translate into the new Velaro Novo units. Avelia Stream might depend on whether the TGV M counts as one.
TheWierdOne
Member
Would they? It is only used in one country (plus HS1 to be very pedantic), and there are plenty of countries that don’t have TVM and do have HSR
m0ffy
Member
With the modularity of modern onboard signalling, surely integrating TVM is relatively straightforward?
FR1000 and FR1000NG has a multi-signalling TMS, and is certified to operate in a big list of countries.
Snow1964
Established Member
Unless it has been changed, the Belgium LGV from France to Brussels South also used TVM430
I am also fairly sure that a standard converter module was developed to translate old systems to ECTS control (or perhaps it was other way round), and shadows the key data, although I think some advanced new functionality is lost and not translated as there is no old equivalent. I think this is how the latest Italian F1000 can operate in at least 7 countries