GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[REVUpminster]

The 230 is still a 45 year old train. I don't know why GWR bought the stock unless they expect an upturn in metal prices.

 

[MotCO]

The 230 is still a 45 year old train. I don't know why GWR bought the stock unless they expect an upturn in metal prices.

Didn't they have to buy all or nothing?

 

[Ribbleman]

Didn't they have to buy all or nothing?

I had heard that the majority of the ex-LUL stock that GWR bought has now been scrapped. Is that the case?

 

[Siemens Staines]

No the Slough / Windsor unit is booked to be a 2 car and has been for a while. Has to be a 2 car due to a restriction with the DOO monitors at Windsor.

That must have changed within the past couple of years? In the summer of 2023 the weekday Henley and weekend Windsor diagrams were still booked a 3-car, as they had been for many years, and only ended when some more of the Reading 3-cars were sent West.

 

[800301]

That must have changed within the past couple of years? In the summer of 2023 the weekday Henley and weekend Windsor diagrams were still booked a 3-car, as they had been for many years, and only ended when some more of the Reading 3-cars were sent West.

It was towards the end of summer 23 they were banned, unless they put a guard on them I doubt they will come back on the service, ideally if they just wired it you could run a 387 up and down all day

 

[Woods]

No the Slough / Windsor unit is booked to be a 2 car and has been for a while. Has to be a 2 car due to a restriction with the DOO monitors at Windsor.

....something which a 3-car 230 could potentially overcome with the use of an on-train DOO system (bodyside CCTV cameras) plus ASDO.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It was towards the end of summer 23 they were banned, unless they put a guard on them I doubt they will come back on the service, ideally if they just wired it you could run a 387 up and down all day

Thank you for your reply. Were the DOO monitors modified in some way that caused this ban? Not that it takes much to confuse me, but I am just a little mystified as to what could have caused an acceptable method of working for years to then be banned.

 

[cactustwirly]

It was towards the end of summer 23 they were banned, unless they put a guard on them I doubt they will come back on the service, ideally if they just wired it you could run a 387 up and down all day

Guards don't sign Windsor

 

[FGW_DID]

The 230 is still a 45 year old train. I don't know why GWR bought the stock unless they expect an upturn in metal prices.

Didn't they have to buy all or nothing?

Not quite, GWR bought 230001, the IP and took on some staff. The rest was thrown in as a job lot

 

[Purple Train]

That must have changed within the past couple of years? In the summer of 2023 the weekday Henley and weekend Windsor diagrams were still booked a 3-car, as they had been for many years, and only ended when some more of the Reading 3-cars were sent West.

It's been a couple of years since I last saw a 3-car on the branch, so I'd say it wasn't long after that that the monitor issue developed. No end in sight, frustratingly.

Future 230s for any of the GWR branch lines, if built, either for the Thames Valley, around Bristol, or in the West Country, could be either 2-car, 3-car, or even 4-car. There are enough stored ex-D78 cars to have whatever flavour is required. The 3 ex-WMT units are 2-cars, but there is no reason why they couldn't be extended to 3-car or 4-car if and when converted into BEMUs. There are then a variety of seating options available ranging from moreorless no change from the D78 layout (predominantly longitudinal seating with acres of standing space) to something more like the TfW 230s which have 2+2 'airline style' seating and tables in some areas, and ex-LUL longitudinal seating in other areas. You can also choose to have an accessible toilet or not. The 2-car Class 484s (a.k.a. Isle of Wight 230s) have predominantly longitudinal seating and no toilets, but they seem to have been pretty popular with the customers down there. The nice thing is that GWR own the ex-Vivarail designs and have the Engineers 'in house', so if they ever wanted to build any more 230s, which (contrary to some reports) has not actually been entirely ruled out, they could easily develop their own 'spec' to suit their customers' requirements, quite a unique position to be in for any Train Operator. Short platforms could be dealt with by fitting an Automatic Selective Door Operation (ASDO) system, a project for which is already underway for 230001, which will be the first time such a system has been fitted to any 230. Then it would just be a matter of getting a third party workshop to do the conversion work (it couldn't practically be done within the environment of a running depot). Oh and....funding!

I didn't know GWR had so much flexibility regarding the 230s - thanks for this It definitely does raise the hope that the technology can be progressed, but of course nothing is ever quite that simple.

 

[800301]

Guards don't sign Windsor

I know, I’m just saying you won’t be seeing a 3 car anytime soon, that would be one way to fix the problem that prevents 3 car operation

 

[Invincible]

It's been a couple of years since I last saw a 3-car on the branch, so I'd say it wasn't long after that that the monitor issue developed. No end in sight, frustratingly.

I didn't know GWR had so much flexibility regarding the 230s - thanks for this It definitely does raise the hope that the technology can be progressed, but of course nothing is ever quite that simple.

Although with GWR becoming under DfT/GBR control next September

Train operator GWR to be renationalised in about a year - boss

The firm is expected to be among the next operators in government plans to return to public control.

www.bbc.co.uk

Likely they will go for leased new battery trains with a 30/40 year life, rather than spend money on updating 230s with say a 10 year life?

 

[D365]

The 230 is still a 45 year old train. I don't know why GWR bought the stock unless they expect an upturn in metal prices.

Only the bodyshells are 45 years old…

 

[Invincible]

Only the bodyshells are 45 years old…

But in use for 35, so refurbished with new components should give another 10 years life (maybe more on the on the Island line), but in some ways better to go for new trains.

 

[DelW]

The 2-car Class 484s (a.k.a. Isle of Wight 230s) have predominantly longitudinal seating and no toilets, but they seem to have been pretty popular with the customers down there.

When the trains they're replacing are 80 years old, it's not hard to be an improvement! But I agree, the 484s generally seem to have been well received, even if the 3tp2h timetable hasn't been so popular.

The 230 is still a 45 year old train. I don't know why GWR bought the stock unless they expect an upturn in metal prices.

It was stated at the time that GWR bought them at scrap prices (as did Vivarail), so if that's correct there shouldn't be any significant loss on the deal even if they're not reused.

 

[vuzzeho]

Although with GWR becoming under DfT/GBR control next September

Train operator GWR to be renationalised in about a year - boss

The firm is expected to be among the next operators in government plans to return to public control.

www.bbc.co.uk

GBREL, anyone?

 

[sad1e]

Although with GWR becoming under DfT/GBR control next September

Train operator GWR to be renationalised in about a year - boss

The firm is expected to be among the next operators in government plans to return to public control.

www.bbc.co.uk

Likely they will go for leased new battery trains with a 30/40 year life, rather than spend money on updating 230s with say a 10 year life?

I'm wondering what will happen to the ownership of 230001 , 003 , 004 and 005 as well as the unconverted D stock cars as they're owned by the current GWR franchise.

Will the current GWR franchise effectively lease 230001 to GBR after their franchise end date or will their stock be transferred to GBR ?

Any ideas ?

 

[43096]

I'm wondering what will happen to the ownership of 230001 , 003 , 004 and 005 as well as the unconverted D stock cars as they're owned by the current GWR franchise.

Will the current GWR franchise effectively lease 230001 to GBR after their franchise end date or will their stock be transferred to GBR ?

Any ideas ?

They are “franchise assets” so will transfer to the entity.

 

[Woods]

They are “franchise assets” so will transfer to the entity.

That is correct. 230001, 230003, 230004, 230005, all the remaining D78 cars, and the IP, will initially transfer to DFTO, then eventually to GBR, as 'franchise assets'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2025 ==

I had heard that the majority of the ex-LUL stock that GWR bought has now been scrapped. Is that the case?

No. Most of the ex-LUL stock that GWR purchased from the administrators of Vivarail is still in existence. One Trailer car is on the way to being scrapped for spares (to liberate some bogies for 230001's bogie overhaul programme).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==

But in use for 35, so refurbished with new components should give another 10 years life (maybe more on the on the Island line), but in some ways better to go for new trains.

Not quite true. This is one of the most common misconceptions about the 230. A report was done for Vivarail by a Structural Engineer who worked on the original D78 design and build, and underwrote all the various 230 variants. He said that even after conversion to a 230, the bodyshells could in theory survive for another 25 years and the bogie frames for another 25 to 29 years! So considering that everything else is replaced with new equipment, it would not be inconceivable that 230s could carry on for a good 25+ years, plenty of time to recoup the investment required to convert them to battery units 'a la' 230001 and making them considerably cheaper on a 'per car per month' basis compared to new trains. That's one of the reasons why SWR went for them on the Island Line, when they realised that actually the predicted lifespan of them is pretty much on a par with a new train.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Presumably 230002 is still in America, what’s its current status?

 

[Woods]

Presumably 230002 is still in America, what’s its current status?

Operable I believe, along with its sister unit 230011.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Operable I believe, along with its sister unit 230011.

Cheers. Are they proving a success?

 

[sad1e]

Cheers. Are they proving a success?

There's a thread on the American units albeit closed Here :

Vivarail exports to USA

Also we discussed recently in another thread how much of America hasn't had a local rail passenger service in living memory, and a lot of the population hasn't used one on visits to other cities either. So a demonstration could help build public support and also provide some calibration for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Woods]

Cheers. Are they proving a success?

No idea I'm afraid!

 

[Invincible]

Operable I believe, along with its sister unit 230011.

Looking at a press release from March

Pop-Up Metro: New Model for New Starts

First of a Series: July 17, 2023 was a beautiful sunny summer day in Rockhill Furnace, Pa., a town that is not located anywhere near a passenger train. Huntingdon, on […]

www.railwayage.com

there are plans for more light rail "Metro pop up" train demonstrations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey Transit

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==

Not quite true. This is one of the most common misconceptions about the 230. A report was done for Vivarail by a Structural Engineer who worked on the original D78 design and build, and underwrote all the various 230 variants. He said that even after conversion to a 230, the bodyshells could in theory survive for another 25 years and the bogie frames for another 25 to 29 years! So considering that everything else is replaced with new equipment, it would not be inconceivable that 230s could carry on for a good 25+ years, plenty of time to recoup the investment required to convert them to battery units 'a la' 230001 and making them considerably cheaper on a 'per car per month' basis compared to new trains. That's one of the reasons why SWR went for them on the Island Line, when they realised that actually the predicted lifespan of them is pretty much on a par with a new train.

Thanks, The previous ex LU stock on the Island line lasted till they were 80 years old, so presuming with "tender loving care" the 484s and 230 could have a long life.

Although looks like in Wales the plan seems to be new though trains from Wrexham to Liverpool with a target date of 2035, although guess the current 230s could be modified to work 3rd rail on the Merseyrail lines?

 

[martin butler]

I still think that as a stop gap, until new designs become available the battery / 3rd rail 230 concept could still be of use, as battery units, on GW branch lines, with fast charge technology, and as 3rd rail/ battery units, with charging via the 3rd rail, on Reading to Gatwick services, the units have a top speed of 60 mph, so that compares well with the line speeds, of the route, and based at Reading Depot, the engineering would be centralised, that would free up the remaining turbo units, at reading, to operate on other GW routes, and possibly take over some of the branches in Devon, and Cornwall. until a new generation of hybrid units capable of running on deisel, or electric, including battery, can be developed.

 

[REVUpminster]

I still think that as a stop gap, until new designs become available the battery / 3rd rail 230 concept could still be of use, as battery units, on GW branch lines, with fast charge technology, and as 3rd rail/ battery units, with charging via the 3rd rail, on Reading to Gatwick services, the units have a top speed of 60 mph, so that compares well with the line speeds, of the route, and based at Reading Depot, the engineering would be centralised, that would free up the remaining turbo units, at reading, to operate on other GW routes, and possibly take over some of the branches in Devon, and Cornwall. until a new generation of hybrid units capable of running on deisel, or electric, including battery, can be developed.

Devon and Cornwall don't need the 230s while the 150s soldier on for another five years and the 175s take over from the HSTs and 158s. Still need the turbos at Exeter for Paignton-Exmouth.

 

[Murray J]

I still think that as a stop gap, until new designs become available the battery / 3rd rail 230 concept could still be of use, as battery units, on GW branch lines, with fast charge technology, and as 3rd rail/ battery units, with charging via the 3rd rail, on Reading to Gatwick services, the units have a top speed of 60 mph, so that compares well with the line speeds, of the route, and based at Reading Depot, the engineering would be centralised, that would free up the remaining turbo units, at reading, to operate on other GW routes, and possibly take over some of the branches in Devon, and Cornwall. until a new generation of hybrid units capable of running on deisel, or electric, including battery, can be developed.

They definitely wouldn't be good on Reading-Gatwick services. The line speed on the North Downs Line is 70mph, so a 230 would take longer to do the same journey.

 

[D365]

Devon and Cornwall don't need the 230s while the 150s soldier on for another five years…

only five years? That’s brave!

But yes I don’t see any 230s making their way down in regular service unless something drastically changes.

 

[Ribbleman]

Looking at a press release from March

Pop-Up Metro: New Model for New Starts

First of a Series: July 17, 2023 was a beautiful sunny summer day in Rockhill Furnace, Pa., a town that is not located anywhere near a passenger train. Huntingdon, on […]

www.railwayage.com

there are plans for more light rail "Metro pop up" train demonstrations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey Transit

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2025 ==


Thanks, The previous ex LU stock on the Island line lasted till they were 80 years old, so presuming with "tender loving care" the 484s and 230 could have a long life.

Although looks like in Wales the plan seems to be new though trains from Wrexham to Liverpool with a target date of 2035, although guess the current 230s could be modified to work 3rd rail on the Merseyrail lines?

There is no possibility of the TfW 230s with their diesel engines running through from Wrexham to Liverpool using the 3rd rail from Bidston. Passenger carrying vehicles with diesel tanks are not permitted through the tunnel system.