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Should we have a universal ID card?

Should the UK have a digital ID scheme

  • Yes I think so

    Votes: 91 47.9%
  • No I don’t think so

    Votes: 92 48.4%
  • I’m not sure

    Votes: 7 3.7%

  • Total voters
    190
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Bletchleyite

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In the UK, you can compromise someone's identity by simply obtaining their birth certificate and photoshopping two utility bills. It's incredibly easily done.

The irony of a birth certificate being counted as ID is that it is very easy to get one for someone else with very few checks. With their agreement of course I have obtained a copy of someone else's birth certificate to use for a DBS check - but nothing would have stopped me doing it without their consent!

There is a solid case for bringing in physical ID cards for vulnerable people however, and I think this is a major failing of the idea to try and use only digital ID cards.

If it's all online, you have the same flexibility as e-tickets - you can have the barcode on an Apple/Google Wallet pass or you can have it on a physical card, people can then choose either or both.
 
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bahnause

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Right. So no chance of the central database being compromised then? Either by technological means or by rogue staff? This is going to be a much bigger target for foreign governments than any commercial systems would be.
This is about the third time I've asked this question in this thread: Why would a digital ID need a database?

Either I overlooked the answers, or there weren't any.

And while we're on the subject: what does a digital ID have to do with a possible obligation to carry it or a regulation on whether the police may demand identification without justification? These are completely different issues that have nothing to do with digital ID.
 

Bletchleyite

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Why would a digital ID need a database?

Because online verification is a key part of the concept. Without that falsification and fraud is much easier. Imagine e-tickets without the ability to log scans, people would just print a copy for all their mates and use them over and over again.

If not doing a means of online verification, a physical card is more secure.
 

bahnause

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Because online verification is a key part of the concept. Without that falsification and fraud is much easier. Imagine e-tickets without the ability to log scans, people would just print a copy for all their mates and use them over and over again.

If not doing a means of online verification, a physical card is more secure.
Online verification does not need a database. All it needs is the necessary Trust Infrastructure, supporting other authorities and organisations to issue electronic credentials. And my ID is an ID, not a ticket.
 

JamesT

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Online verification does not need a database. All it needs is the necessary Trust Infrastructure, supporting other authorities and organisations to issue electronic credentials. And my ID is an ID, not a ticket.
Whoever is issuing credentials is going to be keeping details of those in a database, I don’t see how you get round that. If you’re delegating the issuing then you’re at the mercy of whichever organisation has the weakest procedures for doing that.
 

bahnause

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Whoever is issuing credentials is going to be keeping details of those in a database, I don’t see how you get round that. If you’re delegating the issuing then you’re at the mercy of whichever organisation has the weakest procedures for doing that.
Good news in this case. You don't have to invent a concept to unlink the credentials. Such concepts have been standard for years.
 
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What could it lead to? Dramatically reduced levels of identity theft, a more secure migration system that doesn't rely on birth certificates and utility bills (neither of which prove citizenship anyway) and so on?

Sounds terrifying. I certainly far prefer having a secure ID system without fear of identity theft than the UK version, where you can sign contracts in someone's name with nothing more than a couple of photoshopped bills and a barely legible birth certificate.
People coming here illegally working cash in hand will continue to do so after this nonsense is introduced. ID won’t fix this. Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc? The list goes on. If anyone thinks this will solely be used for proof of eligibility to work needs to give their head a wobble. Rolling out this scheme to combat illegal immigration is nonsense. It won’t fix it. It’s an incredibly underhand way to eventually steal control over our lives. Not now, not in 5 or 10 years, but it’ll come. If you are happy to sign up then crack on, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I comply with this.
 

bahnause

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Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc?
These are basic security features that are already implemented. If desired, the underlying code of the app can also be made available as open source (which, incidentally, is already the case in many instances).

The fear of tracking via some kind of electronic ID is laughable, especially when compared to the identification methods currently in use. Anyone who thinks it is normal to identify themselves online with a copy of their passport or selfies, without having the slightest idea how it will be stored or used, should refrain from lecturing others about data protection concerns.

To solve the problem of traceability (or linkability) effectively, it is necessary to have several different key pairs for the same set of attributes encoded in multiple verifiable credentials, and to be able to renew them securely and automatically. It is not rocket science. (Other approaches do exist).
 
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Topological

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If no one has linked this, then you can see the % signing the anti-ID card petition by constituency here:

Link: Map of Responses

The division between London and not-London is strong.

Screenshot 2025-09-30 at 16.02.43.png
Alt Text: Screenshot of the map showing the percentage of constituents signing the petition against ID cards.
 

DarloRich

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People coming here illegally working cash in hand will continue to do so after this nonsense is introduced. ID won’t fix this. Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc? The list goes on. If anyone thinks this will solely be used for proof of eligibility to work needs to give their head a wobble. Rolling out this scheme to combat illegal immigration is nonsense. It won’t fix it. It’s an incredibly underhand way to eventually steal control over our lives. Not now, not in 5 or 10 years, but it’ll come. If you are happy to sign up then crack on, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I comply with this.
who is going to "steal control of our lives" and why?
 
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These are basic security features that are already implemented. If desired, the underlying code of the app can also be made available as open source (which, incidentally, is already the case in many instances).

The fear of tracking via some kind of electronic ID is laughable, especially when compared to the identification methods currently in use. Anyone who thinks it is normal to identify themselves online with a copy of their passport or selfies, without having the slightest idea how it will be stored or used, should refrain from lecturing others about data protection concerns.
The difference is that people uploading ID etc make a choice to do it. This is being “told” to do it. And people don’t like being told what to do.
 

realemil

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Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc? The list goes on.
I'm sorry but this is crazy levels of paranoia.

You seriously think that Apple & Google will bend over backwards and let a government app track all of this, without us knowing? Both platforms review every app that is sent in, and Apple especially is more strict compared to Google in terms of what goes onto the app store. If our location is being tracked, we would know, because our phones would tell us.

If the government really would want to install something onto our phones, they wouldn't use an app to do it... look at EncroChat, the French and Dutch authorities deployed malware onto EncroChat's servers, and nobody knew for a long time. Clearly governments have this power, why on earth would they need us to install an app to do that exact same functionality?!

And as others said upthread, the code of the app can be made available, either by open-source, or by people reverse engineering it.

This is being “told” to do it. And people don’t like being told what to do.
The same way that you are told to have a National Insurance number? Or an NHS number. Or a form of identification for a job. This simply streamlines services together into one, and makes it a lot easier to access services and provide ID.


I'm sure that apps such as Facebook or TikTok are far far worse then an official gov ID app :D
 

signed

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You seriously think that Apple & Google will bend over backwards and let a government app track all of this, without us knowing?
Devil Advocate: Yes, it has been awfully public that governments are trying to do that in the stealth. And especially with the US Gov turn to fascism, I wouldn't discount Google/Apple being forced to secretly allow trackers/backdoor by the US gov. If it's a non-US/non-China gov, I wouldn't expect them however
 

AlterEgo

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People coming here illegally working cash in hand will continue to do so after this nonsense is introduced. ID won’t fix this. Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc? The list goes on. If anyone thinks this will solely be used for proof of eligibility to work needs to give their head a wobble. Rolling out this scheme to combat illegal immigration is nonsense. It won’t fix it. It’s an incredibly underhand way to eventually steal control over our lives. Not now, not in 5 or 10 years, but it’ll come. If you are happy to sign up then crack on, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I comply with this.
Comply with what? Do you comply with having a National Insurance Number? How do you "not comply" with that if you disagree with it? Nobody thinks it will be used just for eligibility of proof to work, there are myriad uses.
 

realemil

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Devil Advocate: Yes, it has been awfully public that governments are trying to do that in the stealth. And especially with the US Gov turn to fascism, I wouldn't discount Google/Apple being forced to secretly allow trackers/backdoor by the US gov. If it's a non-US/non-China gov, I wouldn't expect them however
I would imagine that sooner or later, a whistleblower would leak the fact that phones are being "tracked", and would not take long for it to become mainstream, especially in our day and age.

Even if the data was stored, analysing it, etc, would take manpower and eventually get out to the public.

However, I can't imagine Apple or Google bending backwards for anyone but the US to be honest. Considering the hostility between US <> China, and the fact that they rejected (multiple times) giving the UK a backdoor, I can only think that they'd comply with the US, if at all, and I'm not sure the US would be keen on sharing the data anyway :D
 

bahnause

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Devil Advocate: Yes, it has been awfully public that governments are trying to do that in the stealth. And especially with the US Gov turn to fascism, I wouldn't discount Google/Apple being forced to secretly allow trackers/backdoor by the US gov. If it's a non-US/non-China gov, I wouldn't expect them however
And how would a 3rd party app use such a "secret" backdoor? What do you imagine would be tracked and how would it help to construct any kind of meaningful and useful information?
 

signed

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And how would a 3rd party app use such a "secret" backdoor? What do you imagine would be tracked and how would it help to construct any kind of meaningful and useful information?
It would be trivial to provide the devs of an app with a obfuscated "metrics" library that contain the backdoor code. Or just Google/Apple sending the data via the US. It's even more potent when it comes directly from the OS of course

That could lead to realtime location streaming, camera recordings and other things. Of course, it's far fetched but not really out of the the realm of a fascist US regime
 

bahnause

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That could lead to realtime location streaming, camera recordings and other things. Of course, it's far fetched but not really out of the the realm of a fascist US regime
It is not only far fetched, it has nothing to do with any app you might or might not install on your device if a backdoor placed willfully in the OS. Location streaming can be done by the mobile provider. I still don't understand, how a useful profile could be generated as the stored data in the app would still be safe.
 

Sorcerer

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Let's be absolutely real with ourselves here. This policy probably wouldn't have been as badly received as it already has been if trust in politics wasn't at such a massive low point, nor if the ruling party in power hadn't already taken on an overreaching pro-surveillance stance in the past including, but not limited to, the abysmal Online Safety Act just a few months prior, during a time when people believe that there are far more pressing issues at hand.

It also doesn't help that it's a policy that is championed by Tony Blair, a rather divisive figure in UK politics despite his roaring electoral success in the past. I believe that if we were living in prosperity and we had a more charismatic and popular leader that this policy could've easily been presented in a more palatable fashion, but as per usual it's an unpopular policy pushed by an uninspired leadership that seems to be increasingly out of it's depth.
 

Jimini

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Why bother with 2 phones?

Off topic to a point, but I quite like it. One for work; one for personal use. Can always turn the former off if I don't want to be bothered!

It's been the case for me for over 15 years now. Also means that I effectively have two charged batteries to rely upon!
 

DarloRich

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Off topic to a point, but I quite like it. One for work; one for personal use. Can always turn the former off if I don't want to be bothered!

It's been the case for me for over 15 years now. Also means that I effectively have two charged batteries to rely upon!
that isn't what is meant here.
 

Darandio

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Anyone got any information on how Bacofoil shares are doing right now? I reckon there's some money to be made.....
 

Cloud Strife

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People coming here illegally working cash in hand will continue to do so after this nonsense is introduced. ID won’t fix this.

Except it will, because now the employers have absolutely no excuse for letting it happen. If they can't prove that they checked a person's digital ID, then they can (and should) be prosecuted on criminal charges. As it stands, a birth certificate is enough to work, and that certificate can be very easily forged. It's absolutely ridiculous and beyond belief that someone can start working on the UK with nothing more than a birth certificate.

Nobody thinks it will be used just for eligibility of proof to work, there are myriad uses.

The thing that it really helps with is ending the circus of the UK having countless documents that can theoretically be used to prove who you are and your age.

The difference is that people uploading ID etc make a choice to do it. This is being “told” to do it. And people don’t like being told what to do.

Except they already comply with a huge amount of regulations on a daily basis. The UK is a very regulated society compared to most European countries.

The irony of a birth certificate being counted as ID is that it is very easy to get one for someone else with very few checks. With their agreement of course I have obtained a copy of someone else's birth certificate to use for a DBS check - but nothing would have stopped me doing it without their consent!

Exactly. Are there even any restrictions on obtaining a birth certificate belonging to someone else? I obtained my birth mother's birth certificate a few months ago without her knowledge/consent, and for fun, I ordered it from my wife's name and credit card. Essentially, all that Scotland's People knew is that some random Polish woman with a Polish address was ordering some Scottish woman's birth certificate, and they were perfectly happy to send it out.

In fact, if my wife had ordered someone's birth certificate who was roughly the same age as her, she could (as a fluent English speaker with no discernible accent beyond sounding like a middle class character from a generic crap BBC sitcom) easily pass as a British citizen.

Also, how do you know what this “app” will be doing in the background on your phone? Tracking movement, looking at your apps, messages etc? The list goes on.
Do you know how many people are involved in deploying something like this? It would be absolutely impossible to cover up such functionality, and it would bring down a government if it was revealed. If you're simply talking about spooks accessing your phone, well, they most likely already can.

Rolling out this scheme to combat illegal immigration is nonsense. It won’t fix it. It’s an incredibly underhand way to eventually steal control over our lives.

So, you're openly supporting *not* combating illegal immigration, identity theft and all the other things that are currently widespread in the UK but pretty much unheard of in Europe?

The same way that you are told to have a National Insurance number? Or an NHS number. Or a form of identification for a job. This simply streamlines services together into one, and makes it a lot easier to access services and provide ID.

But but this is different! Or something.
 
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Anyone got any information on how Bacofoil shares are doing right now? I reckon there's some money to be made.....

What a fine example of the standard which public debate often now aspires to! You could address the issue, but no - far easier to start throwing playground insults at anyone who disagrees with you, isn't it?!
 

DarloRich

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What a fine example of the standard which public debate often now aspires to! You could address the issue, but no - far easier to start throwing playground insults at anyone who disagrees with you, isn't it?!
the problem is many of the "arguments" suggested rely utterly on conspiracy nonsense so it is hard to engage with them. There are people in this country who seem to have completely lost thier mind and fallen so far into the conspiracy rabbit hole they cant work out up from down!
 
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