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Should we have a universal ID card?

Should the UK have a digital ID scheme

  • Yes I think so

    Votes: 91 47.9%
  • No I don’t think so

    Votes: 92 48.4%
  • I’m not sure

    Votes: 7 3.7%

  • Total voters
    190
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the right wing complaints about ID Cards are such nonsense. If Farage came out with an idea for ID cards the whoppers would whop themselves crazy saying what a great idea it was for stopping forigns doing evil forign fings.

it is that transparent.

They really wouldn't! This is the sort of thing which would get that sort of opposition from the right whoever raised it. There is also a widespread view that it won't achieve what the government pretends it will achieve, and isn't really intended to.

Opposition to ID cards and data tracking in general has been a strong theme on the right for quite a few years.
 
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DarloRich

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The Police, when they have the power to demand ID cards, will undoubtedly use it. What if you are not carrying yours, for whatever reason?
then you get a producer. Same as when you got stopped by the traffic police and didn't have your driving license on you in the olden days - did that never happen to you?
I have only ever been stopped by the Police once - Over 40 years ago! Walking early one morning to my first job on the railway. Will stops happen more often when ID cards become a thing - Without doubt.
this is my point - many people don't deal with the police often and don't really understand the interaction. As i said above the police cant investigate real crimes like burglaries and street robbery but they will suddenly have the time to stop randoms in the street and demand their ID. Really?

Where i DO think you might have a point is if you happen to be in a minority group. That needs careful thought & monitoring.
admire your trust, but they most certainly will. They certainly seem to have stopped you an awful lot! (For no good reason, I am sure).
maybe - but so what - you and others still haven't answered why you are scared witless about this! What do you think is going to happen if you present an ID card to a policeman? Could you explain it to me. I HONESTLY don't get it. The state already has all this information. Why not just have it one place?

Yes - I have been stopped a fair bit - you learn quite early on to just play the game and get home swiftly unless you fancy a long night with the police checking your tyre depth with a micrometer, make you do a breath test, search your car for drugs, give you a lecture and generally waste your time! It is clear many posters here and elsewhere haven't had much contact with the police and i think that colours reactions.

I am not worried about the police asking to look at a bit of plastic. I am more worried about the security of the data in the "system"

EDIT - I am not being difficult, truly, i want to understand the counter argument and to me it all seems based on emotion, British exceptionalism and outlandish "what ifs" ( and if I am honest mad conspiracy stuff) . What is about an ID card/app/system that is such a concern?

I'll use a old smart phone wiped clean to put my ID App on.
why? Why carry two phones? What are you worried about?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And that's where all this leads. Perhaps 'Darlo Rich' would like to comment, now he's able to make the link between Digital ID and health surveillance and state control.
i don't engage with conspiracy silliness so I don't really understand what you are on about.
 
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75A

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A major issue with the Id Card that people seem to be missing (not surprising as people 'over the water' don't understand it at all) is the 'Good Friday Agreement'.
 

Meole

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Most people will carry their digital ID virtually all the time as they use their device to communicate, to travel via digi ticket, same to attend football/concerts, digi driving licence in future etc, presumably passports will go digi in future too, so the I'm not going to carry such on principle is bizarre.

The USA already hold my fingerprint and eye recognition detail, and I am very happy they do having waited in line for entry for years the fast entry system is a blessing, I was briefly stopped by a patrol in deep Colorado last year for missing a stop sign on a turn and was interested to hear they had my full address, vehicles, employer and full UK driving history - very short - within a couple of minutes, before sending me off with a friendly reminder, so much of personal data is already held without us having these cards as such, and apparently shared across the globe.
 
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enlighten me - what is the secret intention behind bringing in ID "cards"

Data collection, surveillance and control. Once they've managed to get it implemented (this isn't the first time a Labour government has tried - Blair had a go), its scope will increase.

Quite clearly it is useless as a way of reducing illegal immigration. It's already a legal requirement that employers check the right to work in the UK of prospective employees. Those employers who don't aren't going to suddenly start doing so because they've been given an additional law to break, in addition to those they are already breaking.
 
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sigh. i knew it would be some kind of conspiracy.

Good job we have wise people like you to spot these 'conspiracy theories' then, isn't it?!

Anyone who cannot see the constant increase in government surveillance and control over the past decade and more really isn't paying attention. Labour are the worst of the political parties for this, but the Tories aren't a great deal better.

Let's turn it round then, what do YOU think the purpose of ID cards is, given that they are clearly not likely to deter those who are already employing people illegally from continuing to do so?
 

75A

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could you expand?
Very, very complicated but for example people in what is called Northern Ireland are allowed to work unrestricted in the South and vice versa.
No way could you require people in the Republic (EU) to get a 'British' id document to work in 'the North'
 

AlterEgo

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Very, very complicated but for example people in what is called Northern Ireland are allowed to work unrestricted in the South and vice versa.
No way could you require people in the Republic (EU) to get a 'British' id document to work in 'the North'
Why not? What in the Belfast Agreement prevents this?
 

JamesT

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Very, very complicated but for example people in what is called Northern Ireland are allowed to work unrestricted in the South and vice versa.
No way could you require people in the Republic (EU) to get a 'British' id document to work in 'the North'
Irish citizens still have to prove their right to work in the UK like anyone else.
The status of Irish citizens in UK law long predates the Good Friday Agreement. Some of it dates back all the way to the Irish Free State in 1922.
 
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If only people could see what this could lead to…. they wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole. I will not comply with this nonsense and with any luck it won’t get off the ground.
 

Falcon1200

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Same as when you got stopped by the traffic police and didn't have your driving license on you in the olden days - did that never happen to you?

I passed my driving test in 1989 but have never been stopped by the Police and asked to show my licence.

why you are scared witless about this!

I am not scared witless - where do you get that impression from? - More concerned about various aspects of this scheme, those I outlined in Post #396;

It being delivered on schedule
It being delivered on budget
It not costing us anything, whether directly or indirectly
It being guaranteed unhackable and invulnerable

There isn't going to be compulsory carry.

In which case, what is the point?!! And I would add..... yet.
 

DustyBin

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Please may I just turn this on its head for a moment and ask a reasonable question?

If we had had digital ID cards in 2019, would any of the enthusiastic proponents on here care to speculate, within the bounds of reasonable likelihood, how life would have run differently during the course of 2020?

Would the situation have been better, worse or no different?

Probably little difference aside from that vaccine passports would probably have been integrated into it rather than separate.

Therein lies the problem (well one of them anyway!)…
 

DarloRich

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If only people could see what this could lead to…. they wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole. I will not comply with this nonsense and with any luck it won’t get off the ground.
sigh - what could this lead to?

And when you think about that can you tell me if this has happened in Belgium or Holland and if not why not?
 

BAFRA77

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It's quite the achievement that these plans from Labour have managed to unite all five of Northern Ireland's main parties in unanimously rejecting the scheme.
 

Cloud Strife

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If only people could see what this could lead to…. they wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole. I will not comply with this nonsense and with any luck it won’t get off the ground.

What could it lead to? Dramatically reduced levels of identity theft, a more secure migration system that doesn't rely on birth certificates and utility bills (neither of which prove citizenship anyway) and so on?

Sounds terrifying. I certainly far prefer having a secure ID system without fear of identity theft than the UK version, where you can sign contracts in someone's name with nothing more than a couple of photoshopped bills and a barely legible birth certificate.
 
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What could it lead to? Dramatically reduced levels of identity theft,

Two points here:

1) Do you seriously think that such a system won't get compromised sooner or later (probably sooner)? It will be an immediate target for criminals and probably a number of foreign governments

2) Do you think that counterfeit digital IDs won't become a thing very rapidly?
 

Bletchleyite

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2) Do you think that counterfeit digital IDs won't become a thing very rapidly?

Because the system of record is online and the user will just carry a reference to that record, a "counterfeit digital ID" will not be possible. Think airline style e-tickets (where the ticket is a record in a central database) rather than railway ones (where the barcode the user actually holds is the ticket, and the central database just holds details of which ones have been scanned).

Counterfeiting is a problem unique to systems (like passports) where the thing of record is the physical item the user holds.
 
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Consider all the unnecessary restrictions placed on us during Covid due the hysterical nature of some individuals.
Now give those same hysterical individuals a means of digital control, limiting purchases, travel etc.
You don't need to be some tinfoil hatted conspiracist to see where this will end up.
 

AlterEgo

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Consider all the unnecessary restrictions placed on us during Covid due the hysterical nature of some individuals.
Now give those same hysterical individuals a means of digital control, limiting purchases, travel etc.
You don't need to be some tinfoil hatted conspiracist to see where this will end up.
Yes you do, to be honest. The state maintains a standing army which can shoot your face off if it wanted to. The idea about giving government "tools" when the RAF could bomb your house "if a future evil government wanted to" is daft.

The state already has measures to limit your travel and purchases if it wants to.
 

Razorblades

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Consider all the unnecessary restrictions placed on us during Covid due the hysterical nature of some individuals.
Now give those same hysterical individuals a means of digital control, limiting purchases, travel etc.
You don't need to be some tinfoil hatted conspiracist to see where this will end up.

Wow, that's wild conspiracy territory. A large segment of society considered all those measures proportionate and rational, mind you. Some, even in the present government, thought they didn't go far enough.
 
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Because the system of record is online and the user will just carry a reference to that record, a "counterfeit digital ID" will not be possible. Think airline style e-tickets (where the ticket is a record in a central database) rather than railway ones (where the barcode the user actually holds is the ticket, and the central database just holds details of which ones have been scanned).

Counterfeiting is a problem unique to systems (like passports) where the thing of record is the physical item the user holds.

Right. So no chance of the central database being compromised then? Either by technological means or by rogue staff? This is going to be a much bigger target for foreign governments than any commercial systems would be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A large segment of society considered all those measures proportionate and rational, mind you. Some, even in the present government, thought they didn't go far enough.

Largely because they consumed the stream of lies and exaggerations fed to them by the mainstream media and the government. Anyone looking at the stats could see the reality. This was true at the time and is even more so in retrospect when more stats are available.

It is worth pointing out that all of the extreme hysterical measures were made up on the fly and had never formed part of the long term plan for influenza epidemics (which this was comparable to).
 

Bletchleyite

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Right. So no chance of the central database being compromised then? Either by technological means or by rogue staff? This is going to be a much bigger target for foreign governments than any commercial systems would be.

It's possible, but has it happened in a country that already has this?

It's not however counterfeiting, which is not possible with this sort of architecture because it's only applicable to situations where the user holds the item of record in their hand, e.g. a passport which is valid simply by looking at it (or scanning its chip) with no online verification needed.

You could counterfeit a railway e-ticket because it's in that odd middle ground where the user does hold an item of record that isn't easily online verifiable (it exists in databases but not one single one) - though it's made harder by requiring you to know the private keys to sign the contents of the barcode such that a scan would work. But this ID system wouldn't work like that, the system of record would be held online with the user just holding a reference to it (which is why I don't see why it has to have its own wallet app - a QR code in Apple/Google Wallet would be fine). The more usual way of counterfeiting railway e-tickets is editing the human-visible bit to e.g. change the date but keeping the old barcode, but that is pretty easy to catch when it's scanned and is found not to contain the same ticket as the human readable bit says.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is worth pointing out that all of the extreme hysterical measures were made up on the fly and had never formed part of the long term plan for influenza epidemics (which this was comparable to).

What's particularly interesting about it is that it has now evolved into being little more than a bad cold as many expected it to - whereas flu remains highly dangerous even when not a pandemic, and as a result flu jabs for those particularly vulnerable to it, while optional, are not particularly controversial.
 

realemil

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So no chance of the central database being compromised then? Either by technological means or by rogue staff? This is going to be a much bigger target for foreign governments than any commercial systems would be.
Silly argument, the government already stores databases with more information on them - such as passports...

I don't understand why people are so against this, when many other countries have a national ID already. Even I have a national ID from my country of birth!

People are outraged about this, yet I see no outrage about people complaining about the fact that the EU will require all Brits to hand over their fingerprints and photographs, alongside other information, to even enter the country, which I would say is worse then a dumbed-down version of a driving license.

I mean a centralised ID is a good thing - right? It means that people can't use the argument of "I can't afford an ID". It means verifying identities would be easier especially for AML. It may mean easier travel around the EU too. Yet everyone is using the argument of "what if", but the government already has the power to mandate everyone to carry passports, but they don't.
 

Cloud Strife

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1) Do you seriously think that such a system won't get compromised sooner or later (probably sooner)? It will be an immediate target for criminals and probably a number of foreign governments

It's far more secure than relying on birth certificates and utility bills. Europe has quite a few digital ID systems already in place, without any issues. Meanwhile, the UK is one of the worst places when it comes to identity fraud.

2) Do you think that counterfeit digital IDs won't become a thing very rapidly?

It's not a thing in Poland, or in Estonia, or in many other countries. Why would the UK be special, given that anyone checking a digital ID will have access to their own app to verify the document being presented to them? A counterfeit digital ID will fail at the first check.

Counterfeiting is a problem unique to systems (like passports) where the thing of record is the physical item the user holds.

Indeed. A digital ID is far more secure than a passport, especially as the vast majority of people (myself included) aren't aware of how to check for most security features on a passport. On the other hand, I know how to verify a Polish digital ID.

Right. So no chance of the central database being compromised then? Either by technological means or by rogue staff? This is going to be a much bigger target for foreign governments than any commercial systems would be.

Compromising a database means being able to write to it. If you take Poland as an example, to make a change to the PESEL (like a national security number) database requires using a specific airgapped computer which is connected to a network that isn't connected to the internet. You can't compromise it, because there's simply no way in. You can use a human on the inside, but every human with access is also being monitored, and any 'more than reasonable' access is immediately flagged.

In the UK, you can compromise someone's identity by simply obtaining their birth certificate and photoshopping two utility bills. It's incredibly easily done.

I mean a centralised ID is a good thing - right? It means that people can't use the argument of "I can't afford an ID". It means verifying identities would be easier especially for AML. It may mean easier travel around the EU too. Yet everyone is using the argument of "what if", but the government already has the power to mandate everyone to carry passports, but they don't.

I think it's a very good thing, for the simple reason that it becomes straightforward to identity yourself. There won't be a mess of random documents that are about as secure as an unlocked car, there'll be a single document that everyone understands. If it's implemented in the right way, with the same app used for citizens and legal residents, it means that people will only need to be trained to accept one document.

Want to verify someone's identity? Use your e-ID app to check their digital ID. If you don't get a positive response, then you know that something is wrong. Simple. You can even keep a registered address for the person there, so there's absolutely no reason to mess about with bills or other ridiculously insecure forms of identifying yourself.

There is a solid case for bringing in physical ID cards for vulnerable people however, and I think this is a major failing of the idea to try and use only digital ID cards.
 

Purple Train

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Silly argument, the government already stores databases with more information on them - such as passports...

I don't understand why people are so against this, when many other countries have a national ID already. Even I have a national ID from my country of birth!

People are outraged about this, yet I see no outrage about people complaining about the fact that the EU will require all Brits to hand over their fingerprints and photographs, alongside other information, to even enter the country, which I would say is worse then a dumbed-down version of a driving license.

I mean a centralised ID is a good thing - right? It means that people can't use the argument of "I can't afford an ID". It means verifying identities would be easier especially for AML. It may mean easier travel around the EU too. Yet everyone is using the argument of "what if", but the government already has the power to mandate everyone to carry passports, but they don't.
Exactly. The outrage and conspiracy theorism is so over-the-top as to almost be funny. No doubt they'll win the argument, and we'll be stuck with the consequences for years - see also Brexit.
 
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