Chiltern MK5s Starting 2026 (non speculative updates thread)

[43096]

68019 to 68032 (including 033 and 034 as spare locos) were modified to work with electronics and software of the mk5A sets. The existing Chiltern 68s don't have the correct equipment and wiring.

All that, plus that batch have been/are being off leased by DRS, so it simplifies contractual arrangements too as the Mark 5+68 fleet will be directly leased by Chiltern from Beacon.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Please enlighten my ignorance. Why do the Mk5 sets need different locos of the same class? Different couplers, different control electrics or what?

Chiltern's existing Mk3 coaches and DVTs have been modified to use the American AAR multiple working standard, which enables them to (theoretically) work with Class 59, 66, 67, 69, 70 and 73/9 locos as well as 68008 - 68015. That said, they've only worked with 67s and 68s in service with Wrexham & Shropshire and Chiltern.

The Mark 5a coaches are setup for traditional loco-haulage, so you could theoretically put most locos on the front without issue (and there are photos elsewhere on the forum of rakes being delivered hauled by a Rail Operations Group Class 47.) You'd need one of the 68s that was modified for TPE (68019 - 68032) to be able to control the doors from the loco, however.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Chiltern's existing Mk3 coaches and DVTs have been modified to use the American AAR multiple working standard, which enables them to (theoretically) work with Class 59, 66, 67, 69, 70 and 73/9 locos as well as 68008 - 68015. That said, they've only worked with 67s and 68s in service with Wrexham & Shropshire and Chiltern.

The DVT cannot work without an ETS supply (normally provided by the loco) - this would exclude all classes which can't provide this.

Chiltern did fit at one point fit generator sets for ETS to the DVTs so that the locos could be shut down over layovers / during overnight cleaning, but I believe those aren't currently operational.

The Mark 5a coaches are setup for traditional loco-haulage, so you could theoretically put most locos on the front without issue (and there are photos elsewhere on the forum of rakes being delivered hauled by a Rail Operations Group Class 47.) You'd need one of the 68s that was modified for TPE (68019 - 68032) to be able to control the doors from the loco, however.

Not in operational use - the driving trailers can only work with the multiple working system fitted to the Stadler locos, plus it requires TMS integrations via a separate cable - only 68019-34 were fitted with the equipment for this.

They can of course be dragged as empty stock by any loco - but the same also applies to all railway stock provided the correct coupling / brake control equipment is in place.

 

[XCTurbostar]

68032 and CH13 is now running on 3U20.
68022 and CH12 are timed to run on 3N07.

It appears that many 3 Headcode paths have appeared which I assume are driver training runs.

 

[The_Train]

68032 and CH13 is now running on 3U20.
68022 and CH12 are timed to run on 3N07.

It appears that many 3 Headcode paths have appeared which I assume are driver training runs.

They are certainly not hanging around now they have their hands on some of the sets

 

[BanburyBlue]

I suspect that half hourly Marylebone to Birmingham will be introduced in December 2026.

I know there are a few gaps, but I thought the half hourly Marylebone to Birmingham was generally in place? I would have thought 5 coach trains would probably be sufficient through most of the day. My concern is in the peak. For example, the 07.05 from Banbury to Marylebone is normally 8 coaches on Tues, Wed and Thurs, and is mostly full and standing when it leaves. The following train, the 7.37 is class 68 & mk3 and that is often full and standing on leaving Banbury. So replacing these with 2 x 5 coach trains isn't going to meet the need.

 

[sjpowermac]

I know there are a few gaps, but I thought the half hourly Marylebone to Birmingham was generally in place? I would have thought 5 coach trains would probably be sufficient through most of the day. My concern is in the peak. For example, the 07.05 from Banbury to Marylebone is normally 8 coaches on Tues, Wed and Thurs, and is mostly full and standing when it leaves. The following train, the 7.37 is class 68 & mk3 and that is often full and standing on leaving Banbury. So replacing these with 2 x 5 coach trains isn't going to meet the need.

I should have worded things more precisely to ‘half hourly throughout the day’. North bound Marylebone to Birmingham the gaps are:

0807, 0902
1002, 1102
1202, 1302
2102, 2202

I can see what you are saying regarding the peak services, though it is possible that some of them might remain in the hands of Class 168s, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

I still think that Chiltern are in a fortunate position. The current loco hauled sets make two return trips a day on the route, with a TWThO Princes Risborough trip thrown in and yet they are getting 13 sets of coaching stock as replacements. At a time when most operators are having to ‘make do’, that seems extraordinarily generous.

As I understand it, TPE themselves looked at lengthening the Mk5A sets to 6 or 7 coaches but it wasn’t seen as a viable option. With the DT at one and the T1 coach (where the loco attaches at the other), as soon as you try to create longer sets then you will always end up with some spare vehicles.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I know there are a few gaps, but I thought the half hourly Marylebone to Birmingham was generally in place? I would have thought 5 coach trains would probably be sufficient through most of the day. My concern is in the peak. For example, the 07.05 from Banbury to Marylebone is normally 8 coaches on Tues, Wed and Thurs, and is mostly full and standing when it leaves. The following train, the 7.37 is class 68 & mk3 and that is often full and standing on leaving Banbury. So replacing these with 2 x 5 coach trains isn't going to meet the need.

The released 168s could run a Banbury starter which calls at those stops and then run one of the ones from Birmingham nonstop?

 

[BanburyBlue]

I should have worded things more precisely to ‘half hourly throughout the day’. North bound Marylebone to Birmingham the gaps are:

0807, 0902
1002, 1102
1202, 1302
2102, 2202

I can see what you are saying regarding the peak services, though it is possible that some of them might remain in the hands of Class 168s, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

I still think that Chiltern are in a fortunate position. The current loco hauled sets make two return trips a day on the route, with a TWThO Princes Risborough trip thrown in and yet they are getting 13 sets of coaching stock as replacements. At a time when most operators are having to ‘make do’, that seems extraordinarily generous.

As I understand it, TPE themselves looked at lengthening the Mk5A sets to 6 or 7 coaches but it wasn’t seen as a viable option. With the DT at one and the T1 coach (where the loco attaches at the other), as soon as you try to create longer sets then you will always end up with some spare vehicles.

okay - more 'gaps' than I realised.

Be interesting to see what they do. It wasn't too long in the dim and distant past that there used to be 5 Marylebone departures from Banbury between 07.00 and 08.00 in the morning, 2 or 3 starting from Banbury.

Probably wrong thread, but be good to know whether they plan to get the Banbury terminators back in there.

 

[Mikey C]

I should have worded things more precisely to ‘half hourly throughout the day’. North bound Marylebone to Birmingham the gaps are:

0807, 0902
1002, 1102
1202, 1302
2102, 2202

I can see what you are saying regarding the peak services, though it is possible that some of them might remain in the hands of Class 168s, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

I still think that Chiltern are in a fortunate position. The current loco hauled sets make two return trips a day on the route, with a TWThO Princes Risborough trip thrown in and yet they are getting 13 sets of coaching stock as replacements. At a time when most operators are having to ‘make do’, that seems extraordinarily generous.

As I understand it, TPE themselves looked at lengthening the Mk5A sets to 6 or 7 coaches but it wasn’t seen as a viable option. With the DT at one and the T1 coach (where the loco attaches at the other), as soon as you try to create longer sets then you will always end up with some spare vehicles.

Chiltern are down on stock having lost the 172s, and with the 165s aging and declining in reliability. Even the 168s aren't spring chickens anymore, the early ones are 26/27 years old.

Fixed 5 car loco sets aren't ideal, indeed they were a bizarre purchase. "Nobody" like DMUs, but 5 car DMUs which could be doubled up to form 10 car services (or 4 cars doubling up to 8) would have been far more flexible.

 

[45115xeTO]

Chiltern are down on stock having lost the 172s, and with the 165s aging and declining in reliability. Even the 168s aren't spring chickens anymore, the early ones are 26/27 years old.

Fixed 5 car loco sets aren't ideal, indeed they were a bizarre purchase. "Nobody" like DMUs, but 5 car DMUs which could be doubled up to form 10 car services (or 4 cars doubling up to 8) would have been far more flexible.

They're not a purchase... all passenger stock deployment is driven by DfT these days so in all a deployment to Chiltern was actually a logical step. 13 unique train sets kept within one narrow operation.

The mess-up with their original ordering has been discussed to death on here I'm sure.

 

[sprinterguy]

Chiltern are down on stock having lost the 172s, and with the 165s aging and declining in reliability. Even the 168s aren't spring chickens anymore, the early ones are 26/27 years old.

Fixed 5 car loco sets aren't ideal, indeed they were a bizarre purchase. "Nobody" like DMUs, but 5 car DMUs which could be doubled up to form 10 car services (or 4 cars doubling up to 8) would have been far more flexible.

Is a 5-car Mark 5 rake, with their shorter carriages and lower density first class vehicle, roughly equivalent in capacity to a 4-car 168? The latter always seem quite space efficient to me, but I don't have my Platform 5s handy to check.

If so, in the longer term full fleet deployment could theoretically free up some 168s to permit additional 6 and 7-car formations where they're most needed while keeping the loco-hauled sets on off/shoulder peak services; though when they're initially deployed on the existing mark 3 diagrams, and if they subsequently form the majority of Birmingham workings, then loadings on those services will get cosier than at present.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Is a 5-car Mark 5 rake, with their shorter carriages and lower density first class vehicle, roughly equivalent in capacity to a 4-car 168? The latter always seem quite space efficient to me, but I don't have my Platform 5s handy to check.

If so, in the longer term full fleet deployment could theoretically free up some 168s to permit additional 6 and 7-car formations where they're most needed while keeping the loco-hauled sets on off/shoulder peak services; though when they're initially deployed on the existing mark 3 diagrams, and if they subsequently form the majority of Birmingham workings, then loadings will get cosier than at present.

Could put a few of them on a fast Oxford at rush hour? Seems like enough capacity for say Wycombe - Haddenham - Bicester Village - Oxford Parkway - Oxford to me

 

[sprinterguy]

Could put a few of them on a fast Oxford at rush hour? Seems like enough capacity for say Wycombe - Haddenham - Bicester Village - Oxford Parkway - Oxford to me

Yeah, seems sensible given that there have been loco push-pull workings to Oxford in the past with the mark 3s (I think?).

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Yeah, seems sensible given that there have been loco push-pull workings to Oxford in the past with the mark 3s (I think?).

Yeah there was a daily diagram I think but it had to use the through platforms at Oxford. A Mk5 set would fit in the bay platforms though

 

[sjpowermac]

okay - more 'gaps' than I realised.

Be interesting to see what they do. It wasn't too long in the dim and distant past that there used to be 5 Marylebone departures from Banbury between 07.00 and 08.00 in the morning, 2 or 3 starting from Banbury.

Probably wrong thread, but be good to know whether they plan to get the Banbury terminators back in there.

As I understand it, the loco hauled diagrams are changing from the December 2025 timetable (where the Mk5A sets are being phased in).

The morning ‘peak’ trains with loco haulage will be:
1H08 0545 Birmingham Moor Street-Marylebone (Banbury 0639)
1H25 0815 Birmingham Moor Street-Marylebone (Banbury 0916)
Hence keeping the 5 car trains away from the morning peak.

Could put a few of them on a fast Oxford at rush hour? Seems like enough capacity for say Wycombe - Haddenham - Bicester Village - Oxford Parkway - Oxford to me

Chiltern have stated that their plan is for Mk5A sets to run between Marylebone-Birmingham Moor Street-Stourbridge Junction only.

Chiltern are down on stock having lost the 172s, and with the 165s aging and declining in reliability. Even the 168s aren't spring chickens anymore, the early ones are 26/27 years old.

Fixed 5 car loco sets aren't ideal, indeed they were a bizarre purchase. "Nobody" like DMUs, but 5 car DMUs which could be doubled up to form 10 car services (or 4 cars doubling up to 8) would have been far more flexible.

Yes, agreed, Mk5A is far from ideal for the route. I still think that given what other operators have faced, allocating 13 rakes of 5 coaches to replace a fleet currently doing two return Midlands-London trips is remarkably generous.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yeah there was a daily diagram I think but it had to use the through platforms at Oxford. A Mk5 set would fit in the bay platforms though

Yup. Had to run to Hinksey to get it out the way too.

 

[Mikey C]

They're not a purchase... all passenger stock deployment is driven by DfT these days so in all a deployment to Chiltern was actually a logical step. 13 unique train sets kept within one narrow operation.

The mess-up with their original ordering has been discussed to death on here I'm sure.

I meant purchase, as in the original purchase by TPE.

Could put a few of them on a fast Oxford at rush hour? Seems like enough capacity for say Wycombe - Haddenham - Bicester Village - Oxford Parkway - Oxford to me

I think all the Oxfords are slow stoppers these days, so end doored loco stock wouldn't work.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Looks like more ROG movements to/from Eastleigh via Leamington and Oxford next week:
01-09

Realtime Trains | 5Q69 0920 Eastleigh Trsmd to Banbury | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q69 0920 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Banbury on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1149 Banbury to Didcot Parkway | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1149 departure from Banbury to Didcot Parkway on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q71 1254 Didcot Parkway to Leamington Spa | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q71 1254 departure from Didcot Parkway to Leamington Spa on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q72 1410 Leamington Spa to Oxford | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q72 1410 departure from Leamington Spa to Oxford on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q73 1529 Oxford to Banbury | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q73 1529 departure from Oxford to Banbury on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1622 Banbury to Eastleigh Trsmd | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1622 departure from Banbury to Eastleigh Trsmd on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[david1212]

Is a 5-car Mark 5 rake, with their shorter carriages and lower density first class vehicle, roughly equivalent in capacity to a 4-car 168? The latter always seem quite space efficient to me, but I don't have my Platform 5s handy to check.

If so, in the longer term full fleet deployment could theoretically free up some 168s to permit additional 6 and 7-car formations where they're most needed while keeping the loco-hauled sets on off/shoulder peak services; though when they're initially deployed on the existing mark 3 diagrams, and if they subsequently form the majority of Birmingham workings, then loadings on those services will get cosier than at present.

Back to post 24

In the current configuration (261 standard, 30 first) they have less standard seats than a 4 car 168 (272 all standard).

Chiltern are down on stock having lost the 172s, and with the 165s aging and declining in reliability. Even the 168s aren't spring chickens anymore, the early ones are 26/27 years old.

Fixed 5 car loco sets aren't ideal, indeed they were a bizarre purchase (from CAF). "Nobody" like DMUs, but 5 car DMUs which could be doubled up to form 10 car services (or 4 cars doubling up to 8) would have been far more flexible.

End to end timings are mostly just over 2 hours so with a turnaround of 20-30 minutes a circuit is 5 hours hence 10 formations ( be they 168 or MK5A ) are required for a 30 minute service frequency. A short circuit to Banbury is around 3 hours.

Now with 2-car, 3-car and 4-car class 168 sets Chiltern can aim to match demand both maximising capacity at busier times and reducing costs by running short sets at the quietest times. Running a MK5A set in place of a 2-car or 3-car 168 will increase costs.

Yes, agreed, Mk5A is far from ideal for the route. I still think that given what other operators have faced, allocating 13 rakes of 5 coaches to replace a fleet currently doing two return Midlands-London trips is remarkably generous.

Indeed but IMO has only happened as the MK5A / class 68's are available with limited opportunities for ongoing use hence why been in storage for so long after formally handed back by Trans-Pennine.

Once the full MK5A fleet is in use logically the Oxford services will become mostly 168 so reducing demand on the 165 fleet primarily to Marylebone <> Aylesbury and the shuttle to Princes Risborough. Some 165 sets and the earliest 168 sets could be withdrawn to both provide parts and reduce leasing costs.

 

[43096]

Some 165 sets and the earliest 168 sets could be withdrawn to both provide parts and reduce leasing costs.

The 165s and 168s are on lease until December 2027. They won’t be robbed for parts without ROSCO agreement - it is very expensive otherwise when the owner asks for them back in operational condition at the end of the lease.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I think all the Oxfords are slow stoppers these days, so end doored loco stock wouldn't work.

You could have a loco set doing a fast service and then a semi fast right behind it to Bicester North or Bicester village possibly?

 

[Harpo]

If so, in the longer term full fleet deployment could theoretically free up some 168s to permit additional 6 and 7-car formations where they're most needed

Lots of speculation on here about longer trains based on an assumption that Chiltern won’t lose anything except the Mk3s. As it’s a non-speculative thread can anyone quote something official for that?

 

[150219]

Lots of speculation on here about longer trains based on an assumption that Chiltern won’t lose anything except the Mk3s. As it’s a non-speculative thread can anyone quote something official for that?

There is nothing official, nor any basis for the theoretical musings on extending train lengths or reducing the DMU fleet.

 

[sjpowermac]

Lots of speculation on here about longer trains based on an assumption that Chiltern won’t lose anything except the Mk3s. As it’s a non-speculative thread can anyone quote something official for that?

There is nothing official, nor any basis for the theoretical musings on extending train lengths or reducing the DMU fleet.

Information on the Chiltern Railways website under the section ‘What are the benefits for customers on other routes (e.g. Oxford, Stratford upon Avon, Aylesbury)?’

“These newer trains will deliver more reliable journeys on our route between London and the West Midlands. This will free up our existing trains (Class 168 and Class 165) for our other routes. This will result in customers seeing longer trains, which are also being refurbished with improved customer facilities over the next 18 months.”

None of the current DMU fleet off lease until 2030 was quoted on Chiltern’s social media, I assume to fit in with the arrival of new trains for the Aylesbury route.

Link to Chiltern Railways website detailing fleet deployment:

More Trains, Newer Trains | Chiltern Railways

www.chilternrailways.co.uk

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I meant purchase, as in the original purchase by TPE.

They were purchased by Beacon Rail, not TPE.

 

[warwickshire]

Friday 29th August 2025,

1. ON32 0816 Loughborough Brush to Longsight T.M.D 68030
2. 5Q86 1356 Longsight T.M.D to Eastleigh observation through Lapworth was set CH10 with 68030 on rear,

Means Chiltern now have 5 sets CH02, CH05, CH10 ,CH12,CH13, in preparation for service, with CH12 CH13 in Mainline testing, plus 68020, 68022, 68028, 68029, 68030, 68032, Again with 68022 68032 on Mainline testing currently with CH12, CH13 sets, effectively meaning 5 sets and 6 Locomotives are enough in due course to replace the 4 Mk3 sets and the six silver Locomotives 68010 to 68015 by end March 2026,

Meanwhile Friday 29th August 2025 saw

1. 68023 on 5Q32 1026 Crewe South Yard to Longsight T.M.D, as reported on the old railrecord website,
Can anyone please confirm if any of the sets involved, was the previously reported sets CH11, CH08, up thread, of the two MK5 sets, temporary stored at Crewe South Yard,
Moving back to Longsight T.M.D for final works and servicing, before onwards movement,

 

[XCTurbostar]

Looks like more ROG movements to/from Eastleigh via Leamington and Oxford next week:
01-09

Realtime Trains | 5Q69 0920 Eastleigh Trsmd to Banbury | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q69 0920 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Banbury on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1149 Banbury to Didcot Parkway | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1149 departure from Banbury to Didcot Parkway on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q71 1254 Didcot Parkway to Leamington Spa | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q71 1254 departure from Didcot Parkway to Leamington Spa on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q72 1410 Leamington Spa to Oxford | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q72 1410 departure from Leamington Spa to Oxford on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q73 1529 Oxford to Banbury | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q73 1529 departure from Oxford to Banbury on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q86 1622 Banbury to Eastleigh Trsmd | 01/09/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q86 1622 departure from Banbury to Eastleigh Trsmd on 01/09/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

68030 and CH10
68022 and CH12 are out on 3U20 > 3H22 > 3E23
Another set is due out on 3R05 > 3N06 > 3J08

 

[172007]

Wondering if 1 spare loco at the moment even if stationed at Banbury is spreading the ground a little thin if a loco decides to sit down on the mainline and require rescuing.

Ultimately if 10 sets are working the full Service to Birmingham with 1 spare loco and set and two on maintenace cycle at say Eastleigh there is next to no spare capacity. I suspect the two DRS locos are going to be required semi permanently if not fully.

What was TPE's plan for rescue if they managed to get a full service runnin?

It's surprising how often 008 & 9 are on MK3 duties currently tbh

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Wondering if 1 spare loco at the moment even if stationed at Banbury is spreading the ground a little thin if a loco decides to sit down on the mainline and require rescuing.

Ultimately if 10 sets are working the full Service to Birmingham with 1 spare loco and set and two on maintenace cycle at say Eastleigh there is next to no spare capacity. I suspect the two DRS locos are going to be required semi permanently if not fully.

What was TPE's plan for rescue if they managed to get a full service runnin?

It's surprising how often 008 & 9 are on MK3 duties currently tbh

Depends whether DRS wants to lease locos to Chiltern, which seems unlikely (and 008 and 009 aren't compatible anyway).

Not sure why it's surprising that 008 and 009 appear a lot - 008-15 are all DRS locos and they provide however many it is they are contracted to provide from that pool: it doesn't really matter which specific locos it is. Apart from the livery those two locos are no different from the silver ones.