Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Krokodil]

A new home in Europe would that be?

Well yes. Though I suppose that there are other export markets.

 

[Snow1964]

RENFE (Spanish train operator) has announced proposed night services to France, Italy, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, using Talgo Avril

Doesn't look like London is included (presumably due to lack of common passport travel area), but appears would be able to get these if you took a evening or early train across channel.

RENFE are cleary the major rail operators in Europe, and they have developed leading trains capable of up to 330 kmh. RENFE’ s modern Talgo AVRIL fleet is designed for high-speed, cross-border travel, making it well-suited for the proposed night train services. These trains are capable of operating on different track gauges and power systems, facilitating international journeys without the need for time-consuming transfers.

Critically, most European rail operators concentrate on their domestic market. RENFE are planning to take the position of a Europe-wide high-speed network, and they have the means to do it. That includes Portugal.

The ability of the AVRIL train is its ability to cross borders and run on all European track widths and power systems. This has been a major hurdle due to the various track widths, supplies, etc that have developed over the years. Making a universal track system would take more years than you can imagine. The need for high-speed cross-border train services is urgent, as airport delays, crowding, long check-in times and crowded seating are making the alternative of fast overnight rail service a real attraction.

The game changer we have been waiting for.

The focus will be on night services. They plan to offer sleeper cabins, reclining seats, and dining facilities to enhance passenger comfort during overnight journeys.

Proposed Night Train Routes

1. Spain to France

Madrid to Paris: A direct overnight service connecting Spain’s capital to the French capital.

Barcelona to Lyon: Linking Catalonia’s capital to the French city known for its culinary heritage.

Barcelona to Marseille: Connecting the Mediterranean coast of Spain to southern France.

2. Spain to Italy

Madrid to Milan: An overnight journey connecting Spain’s capital to Italy’s fashion and design hub.

Barcelona to Rome: Linking Catalonia’s capital to Italy’s historic capital.

3. Spain to Germany

Madrid to Berlin: Connecting Spain’s capital to Germany’s vibrant capital city.

Barcelona to Munich: Linking Catalonia’s capital to Bavaria’s capital.

4. Spain to Belgium and the Netherlands

Madrid to Brussels: An overnight service connecting Spain’s capital to the political heart of Europe.

Barcelona to Amsterdam: Linking Catalonia’s capital to the Dutch capital.

5. Spain to Portugal

Madrid to Lisbon: Reviving the Lusitânia night train, this route will reconnect Spain’s and Portugal’s capitals.

Madrid will be the hub

Sadly, as yet, there is no mention of London, but reaching Paris is quick and simple. From Madrid, there will be a night train to Lisbon, and the track is almost finished. Many other European capitals are on the proposed routes, Rome, Berlin, Brussels, and Amsterdam, all with a direct high-speed route to Madrid. For English travellers, it will be a two-change route, Paris and Madrid, for most other countries, a single change in Madrid.

The Spanish rail authority, ADIF, has laid the foundations for a more dynamic, competitive, and user-centered railway future. Madrid is receiving an investment of more than 540 million euros to modernise their stations.

RENFE announces plans to connect Spain to Paris, Milan, Berlin and Lisbon

In a major announcement made a few days ago, Spain’s national carrier, RENFE, revealed it plans to connect major European cities with a night train network.

www.theportugalnews.com

 

[TheWierdOne]

RENFE (Spanish train operator) has announced proposed night services to France, Italy, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, using Talgo Avril

Doesn't look like London is included (presumably due to lack of common passport travel area), but appears would be able to get these if you took a evening or early train across channel.

RENFE announces plans to connect Spain to Paris, Milan, Berlin and Lisbon

In a major announcement made a few days ago, Spain’s national carrier, RENFE, revealed it plans to connect major European cities with a night train network.

www.theportugalnews.com

Why is RENFE suddenly so eager to do night trains less than five years after killing off all of their previous services?

 

[Snow1964]

Why is RENFE suddenly so eager to do night trains less than five years after killing off all of their previous services?

Lots of companies, airlines, and rail operators in UK made cuts 4 or 5 years ago due to covid, now travel is booming again (if you exclude trips to USA due to Trump antics), so bringing back and even expanding previous service is not crazy.

Spain is booming again, and rail is being expanded, and they are moving towards 2030s, unlike UK which is still not worked out how to move forward from leisure replacing commuter routes.

 

[signed]

using Talgo Avril

, good luck about that RENFE, especially by night with the awful ride quality. Somebody there is really not reading the market.

Why is RENFE suddenly so eager to do night trains less than five years after killing off all of their previous services?

I would suspect both because they apparently can't make their French International High Speed market work despite the 3 years track access charge subsidy, ÖBB has shown the market exists, European Sleeper and Snaltarget (I can't spell that) are chugging along despite ES's suicide expansion plans, the French will get new stock. Night train service is kinda getting better and that's a market to get from Spain to Portugal, especially in Summer.

 

[LLivery]

Why is RENFE suddenly so eager to do night trains less than five years after killing off all of their previous services?

I've been increasingly thinking, 'Iberia is now being left behind by not having Sleeper services, surely there's demand'. The tourist numbers to Spain speak for themselves, just 1% that taking sleepers will probably work.

If they could have a sleeper connecting to the Andalusian Port for Tangier, you could do something pretty amazing

 

[Class83]

If Eurostar (or any of the potential competitor services) could reintroduce through ticketing from UK stations it would be a step in the right direction. They used to offer this so not clear why it was withdrawn, while it's still available in Europe, the Ouigo type services in France also make connecting in Lille harder.

 

[30907]

Lots of companies, airlines, and rail operators in UK made cuts 4 or 5 years ago due to covid, now travel is booming again (if you exclude trips to USA due to Trump antics), so bringing back and even expanding previous service is not crazy.

Spain, though, was cutting back the night train market well pre Covid - the French routes had certainly gone.

The article includes the existing daytime routes to Lyon/Marseille which sit oddly with the rest which are genuinely long-distance.

 

[Bald Rick]

RENFE (Spanish train operator) has announced proposed night services to France, Italy, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, using Talgo Avril

Doesn't look like London is included (presumably due to lack of common passport travel area), but appears would be able to get these if you took a evening or early train across channel.

RENFE announces plans to connect Spain to Paris, Milan, Berlin and Lisbon

In a major announcement made a few days ago, Spain’s national carrier, RENFE, revealed it plans to connect major European cities with a night train network.

www.theportugalnews.com

Madrid to Berlin is going to be purgatory - 1500 miles. That‘s going to be a night and a whole day. There’s hardly any market between them (typically 6 flights, compared to 20+ London to Madrid), so it is going to have to make several intermediare stops to gain traffic. And for crew purposes!

 

[MontyP]

Barcelona to Lyon and Marseille are only 5 hours on high-speed day trains, why would these be good choices for overnight services? They would be better off looking at the frequencies of these services!

Madrid to Paris makes sense, also potentially Barcelona to Brussels/Amsterdam (one service to both). I can't see a market for the others at the moment.

 

[Trainbike46]

Barcelona to Lyon and Marseille are only 5 hours on high-speed day trains, why would these be good choices for overnight services? They would be better off looking at the frequencies of these services!

Sounds similar to London to Glasgow tbh, though that is a higher-frequency connection

Madrid to Paris makes sense, also potentially Barcelona to Brussels/Amsterdam (one service to both). I can't see a market for the others at the moment.

I wonder where would be the best place for a London connection - Paris isn't ideal but an option, so I guess either Lille or Brussels, even though Brussels is technically somewhat too far north!

 

[MontyP]

Sounds similar to London to Glasgow tbh, though that is a higher-frequency connection

I wonder where would be the best place for a London connection - Paris isn't ideal but an option, so I guess either Lille or Brussels, even though Brussels is technically somewhat too far north!

I doubt that RENFE are anticipating subsidizing to the same degree as on the Caledonian Sleeper!

 

[ShadowKnight]

Back to virgin, I wonder if they will bring back the talking toilets ...

 

[Farnborough]

Having said that, it should be absolutely clear to any challenger that being given space in the depot is conditional on reopening at least one of the currently mothballed stations, or even bringing Stratford International into use.

From memory, the original Eurostar plan was to keep Waterloo International when St Pancras came on-line...

So I'd bring back Waterloo International - the Nine Elms crossing remains intact...

 

[popeter45]

From memory, the original Eurostar plan was to keep Waterloo International when St Pancras came on-line...

So I'd bring back Waterloo International - the Nine Elms crossing remains intact...

except the platforms have been shortened and the old security area is now a shopping centre

 

[Peterthegreat]

except the platforms have been shortened and the old security area is now a shopping centre

Not to mention 374s are continental gauge and without 3rd rail shoes.

 

[Cach17]

Not to mention 374s are continental gauge and without 3rd rail shoes.

Not to also mention you'd have trouble fitting anything between all the Southeastern and SWR services.

 

[Bald Rick]

except the platforms have been shortened and the old security area is now a shopping centre

Not to mention 374s are continental gauge and without 3rd rail shoes.

Not to also mention you'd have trouble fitting anything between all the Southeastern and SWR services.

Yes but other than that….

 

[zwk500]

Yes but other than that….

There have also been noises about demolishing the international flyover to allow the Windsor lines to get a 4th track back.

 

[Farnborough]

except the platforms have been shortened and the old security area is now a shopping centre

Not to mention 374s are continental gauge and without 3rd rail shoes.

Not to also mention you'd have trouble fitting anything between all the Southeastern and SWR services.

How collectively short sighted...

There have also been noises about demolishing the international flyover to allow the Windsor lines to get a 4th track back.

Not heard that one - but suspect there are plenty of other challenges (not least the the bridge at Queenstown Road) - but I can see the merit in it...

 

[Trainbike46]

How collectively short sighted...

Is it? Waterloo international lay unused for years and noone proposed to use it; it was then used to expand Waterloo, which is a useful way of using the space.

New cross-channel operations had many years to propose usig Waterloo, and none did. The current iterations all proposed St Pancras, and for good reason. Even if Waterloo international still existed, I don't think any of the current proposals would use it.

 

[vuzzeho]

How collectively short sighted...

Peterthegreat's point wasn't short sighted at all. It's a very major physical restriction - you'd essentially have to rebuild the railway and all structures around it to support continental gauge, OHLE trains. You'd have to rebuild Waterloo's international platforms and its approach, and essentially re-re-build The Sidings to make them suitable for international border controls. Also - the international platforms are in very active use! You'd spend millions, maybe billions, rebuilding a station and its approach to reduce capacity and resilience. If you want to go the 'other London station' route, it probably makes sense to expand/rebuild another station, like Fenchurch Street (which has been suggested) or Euston HS2 (though that has more issues).

 

[popeter45]

Peterthegreat's point wasn't short sighted at all. It's a very major physical restriction - you'd essentially have to rebuild the railway and all structures around it to support continental gauge, OHLE trains. You'd have to rebuild Waterloo's international platforms and its approach, and essentially re-re-build The Sidings to make them suitable for international border controls. Also - the international platforms are in very active use! You'd spend millions, maybe billions, rebuilding a station and its approach to reduce capacity and resilience. If you want to go the 'other London station' route, it probably makes sense to expand/rebuild another station, like Fenchurch Street (which has been suggested) or Euston HS2 (though that has more issues).

also why do you need a additional terminus?, afaik track space in ther terminal isnt an issue at all at st pancras, its security capacity thats the limiter

 

[cle]

Far more people use the Windsor lines daily than a random crawling service to the Tunnel (paths all reclaimed) - or the occasional suggestion to run Kent-bound services from Waterloo.

Growth there (eg 4tph back to Reading or to Windsor) would be far more useful.

Victoria Eastern isn’t really even at capacity.

 

[popeter45]

Far more people use the Windsor lines daily than a random crawling service to the Tunnel (paths all reclaimed) - or the occasional suggestion to run Kent-bound services from Waterloo.

Growth there (eg 4tph back to Reading or to Windsor) would be far more useful.

Victoria Eastern isn’t really even at capacity.

the slow crawl through south Londons lines is the real killer for using the southen termini, only reason to use them would be if you wanted a longer trip time such as a sleeper service like what was done with the night ferry service
on a side note, what was the security setup for the night ferry back in the day?

 

[danshrimp]

Not sure this has been picked up on here yet: https://www.thetimes.com/article/9b1f7b32-f5fc-442a-8af5-1b59408b8776

Gemini are proposing to terminate their services (branded as Uber Trains) at Stratford, and also serve Ebbsfleet. Of course the press release just gets regurgitated without any question of how they'll make it work!

High-speed cross-Channel Uber Trains starting and terminating at Stratford in east London could become a competitor to Eurostar under applications to the rail regulator.

Gemini Trains, a start-up railway company, has confirmed in a submission to the Office of Rail and Road that its planned ten-strong rolling stock fleet will make Stratford International its gateway to the continent, and that it also plans to reopen Ebbsfleet station in Kent as a stop for international services.
Gemini, which is chaired by Tony Berkeley, 85, the 18th Lord Berkeley, a veteran railway engineer and Labour minister, plans to start cross-Channel train services from as early as 2029 if it wins a licence from the regulator.

It says using Stratford as a terminus will differentiate its bid from those of other would-be rivals to Eurostar: Virgin Trains Europe, Sir Richard Branson’s attempts to resuscitate his railway interests; and Trenitalia, the Italian state railway company that jointly operates Avanti West Coast into and out of London Euston.
Gemini has also confirmed that a promotional partnership with Uber, the taxi business, will mean its rolling stock is branded as Uber Trains, much like the Thames Clipper riverboats in London are branded Uber Boat.

Stratford International was built with passport control, customs and Border Force facilities, but despite the name Eurostar trains have never made scheduled stops there and never used the facilities. Stratford’s interconnectivity has since been enhanced by it becoming a stop on the Elizabeth Line, formerly known as Crossrail.


Adrian Quine, the entrepreneur who is Gemini’s chief executive, said: “The centre of gravity of London has moved eastwards making Stratford, which has become a city within the city, the perfect location for us.

“It has, with some alterations, the infrastructure in place and it means that we avoid St Pancras, which is becoming increasingly and unpleasantly crowded in the international departures area at peak times. Our plan is not to follow convention or the status quo.”

The rapid mass transit Elizabeth Line means central London is not much more than ten minutes away, and it is 20 minutes from Stratford to Paddington, the gateway mainline station to the west. In time it will be less than half an hour to the HS2 interchange at Old Oak Common.

Quine said Gemini would use Ebbsfleet as a “parkway” station for its services. The station, on the south bank of the Thames and located between the M25 Dartford Crossing and what will be the Lower Thames Crossing, has one of the biggest car parks in the country. Ebbsfleet has not been used by Eurostar for cross-Channel rail services since 2020.
Locating the terminus in east London and reusing Ebbsfleet would open up catchment areas to cross-Channel rail services to 18 million people, Quine said, and would enable large amounts of the southeast to avoid an initial journey into central London.

The partnership with Uber would enable passengers to use its app for a single booking including taxis and rail connections, something that, according to Gemini’s ORR submission, Eurostar has dismissed as “too difficult” to achieve.

Gemini plans to run services from Stratford to Paris, Lille and Brussels initially and then to extend to Cologne, the gateway to Germany and eastern Europe.

 

[Farnborough]

Stratford International was built with passport control, customs and Border Force facilities, but despite the name Eurostar trains have never made scheduled stops there and never used the facilities. Stratford’s interconnectivity has since been enhanced by it becoming a stop on the Elizabeth Line, formerly known as Crossrail.

I know this is the mainstream media (albeit The Times), but conflating the Elizabeth Line at Stratford, and potential trains from Stratford International is a bit rubbish

But then again, it's only a 10-15 minute walk between the two - or one stop on the DLR.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Not sure this has been picked up on here yet: https://www.thetimes.com/article/9b1f7b32-f5fc-442a-8af5-1b59408b8776

Gemini are proposing to terminate their services (branded as Uber Trains) at Stratford, and also serve Ebbsfleet. Of course the press release just gets regurgitated without any question of how they'll make it work!

Well that is a titillating piece of information. Given that the chaps in charge of Gemini/Uber are not novices when it comes to rail, one has to assume they have got some form of understanding with LSPH/HS1 as to how trains will be turned at Stratford. One presumes that either they will deadhead to St Pancras or that they’ve convinced an investor to shell out on some hefty track works.

 

[vuzzeho]

Not sure this has been picked up on here yet: https://www.thetimes.com/article/9b1f7b32-f5fc-442a-8af5-1b59408b8776

Gemini are proposing to terminate their services (branded as Uber Trains) at Stratford, and also serve Ebbsfleet. Of course the press release just gets regurgitated without any question of how they'll make it work!

Ebbsfleet will definitely help their case. However, I question the choice of Stratford. They'd be paying a lot to essentially create border controls at Stratford International, since nothing has ever been there other than provision. The question of how they'll turn trains around is a big one too - just deadhead to St Pancras and back? Or a lot of wrong line running in service through the tunnels? Additionally, where is the capacity for Stratford International as a major international terminus - not just border control-wise, but also just generally? The transport links into Stratford are already busy - Stratty Regional is very busy normally, and Stratty Int'l DLR is not that big. Now dump a trainload of international passengers with luggage, and it seems like it'll get incredibly crowded. The main route between the Int'l and Regional stations is through Westfield. I'm sure they'd love the extra shoppers but it would make the mall even busier. How would Temple Mills depot access work from the international platforms?

In fact, I question what issue they're trying to solve by using Stratford. If anything, it seems to create a lot of new issues that St Pancras doesn't have. I would love to be proven wrong though.

 

[jon0844]

I suppose one (small) advantage is that if there's only one operator choosing to use Stratford International, the operator can fully brand it to their liking. I can see how Virgin would love to do something like that.

But of course, if someone else pays to start using Stratford International, what's to stop Eurostar suddenly deciding after all these years to stop some trains there too?