Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[BrianW]

Short of looking back over more than 1300 posts (sorry) is 'extension' of services through the Channel Tunnel (at either or both ends) intended to be in addition to or in substitution for existing services London to/from Paris/ Brussels? How much 'spare' capacity is there? Seems to me the principal constraint is Britain's requirements regarding customs/ immigration control, as witnessed by 'closures' at Ashford and Stratford and no link to HS2, or anything else in GB. Unless and until that changes I see only hot air.

 

[TheWierdOne]

DB and Eurostar might have to do Crewe training for the different safety systems featured on the parts of the route. Just to make sure they know how to fix it.

Eurostar already runs to Cologne so presumably they must have European crew familiar with German systems. Although I would assume Eurostar staff who work to London don’t have German training so 3 crews could be needed unless DB staff worked to Brussels

 

[AndrewE]

DB and Eurostar might have to do Crewe training for the different safety systems featured on the parts of the route. Just to make sure they know how to fix it.

I would absolutely love it if they came that far north... and I would definitely book a ticket for the first day's service!

For context, just after Eurostar began runnining a friend suggested we have a day trip to Paris with him. Stayed with family in S London, morning E* to Paris, explore Paris for the day with lunch in Chartier's and an afternoon/early evening train home. It was brilliant.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Short of looking back over more than 1300 posts (sorry) is 'extension' of services through the Channel Tunnel (at either or both ends) intended to be in addition to or in substitution for existing services London to/from Paris/ Brussels? How much 'spare' capacity is there? Seems to me the principal constraint is Britain's requirements regarding customs/ immigration control, as witnessed by 'closures' at Ashford and Stratford and no link to HS2, or anything else in GB. Unless and until that changes I see only hot air.

So in terms of the new services, at the moment they are primarily intended to compete with Eurostar on the existing London - Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam routes. Several prospective operators have stated that they want to run further but nothing on that front is announced.

In terms of capacity, the main pinch point is access to maintenance capacity at Temple Mills International depot, which is (currently) the only depot that can take UIC gauge trains. Passenger processing capacity at St Pancras has traditionally been a problem, but that is in the process of being resolved with a near doubling of capacity. Train capacity on the actual lines, particularly on the UK side, is not thought to be a problem as HS1 and the Chunnel are hilariously under-used. The European side is more well-used but the new entrants appear to be confident they can acquire paths on the relevant networks.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

As seen in another post in the International Threads, DB announced some improvements yesterday.

With a map in an Instagram post, they confirm plans for a London connection and it being a day service. But most interestingly, it shows the London service as London > Brussels > Köln > Frankfurt > Berlin, with the title roughly translating into 'more trains, more connections, more Europe: direct connections to European cities'.

The map might not have the routing correct, but it could very well be.

View attachment 187269

I did see in the press that Berlin was mentioned when the UK & DE Governments signed the MOU, but I think many of us thought it was more of a mistake ie (London and Berlin agree to sign) and from what I've seen, Eurostar has recently only been talking about Frankfurt, not even Köln.

So this would suggest, if it's not Eurostar, then quite possibly DB wants to run Berlin - London via Frankfurt.

Köln to Berlin via Frankfurt isn't the most obvious route - and would be at least an hour slower that the direct line via Hamm / Hannover. There would also be the faffing around at Frankfurt Hbf reversing - unless the Airport station is used. Still if you have opted to travel from London to Berlin by train what's another hour or so?

 

[BrianW]

So in terms of the new services, at the moment they are primarily intended to compete with Eurostar on the existing London - Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam routes. Several prospective operators have stated that they want to run further but nothing on that front is announced.

In terms of capacity, the main pinch point is access to maintenance capacity at Temple Mills International depot, which is (currently) the only depot that can take UIC gauge trains. Passenger processing capacity at St Pancras has traditionally been a problem, but that is in the process of being resolved with a near doubling of capacity. Train capacity on the actual lines, particularly on the UK side, is not thought to be a problem as HS1 and the Chunnel are hilariously under-used. The European side is more well-used but the new entrants appear to be confident they can acquire paths on the relevant networks.

Thank you. I guess the 'hilarious under-use' is due to Brexit, Covid and Working From Home, prices and timings in competition with air flights, travel to St Pancras, all on top of antipathy to 'the French'/ 'Jonny Foriner' etc etc, not anticipated by Mrs Thatcher when she 'signed up'.

 

[STINT47]

I would absolutely love it if they came that far north... and I would definitely book a ticket for the first day's service!

I'm sorry but I think they mean staff training rather than running to the town of Crewe.

It would be nice to see regional trains to Europe but currently this is unlikely.

 

[Trainbike46]

Short of looking back over more than 1300 posts (sorry) is 'extension' of services through the Channel Tunnel (at either or both ends) intended to be in addition to or in substitution for existing services London to/from Paris/ Brussels? How much 'spare' capacity is there? Seems to me the principal constraint is Britain's requirements regarding customs/ immigration control, as witnessed by 'closures' at Ashford and Stratford and no link to HS2, or anything else in GB. Unless and until that changes I see only hot air.

The channel tunnel has 4 fast passenger paths every hour, and a fifth path in certain hours. These paths also exist on HS1. The limiting factor is the border capacity at St. Pancras, but that has already increased, and is due to increase further (planned to go up to 5000 pax/hour, or 5.5 class 374s worth of pax/hour).

For the new destinations, if they happen:
- Geneva will be a new service, possibly calling at MLV
- Milan will be a new service, possibly calling at MLV
- Extra Amsterdam trains likely will be a mix of extensions of Brussels services and new services (also serving Brussels)
- Germany services will likely be a mix of extended Brussels services and new services (also serving Brussels)

It also looks likely that the frequency of Paris services will increase.

Eurostar already runs to Cologne so presumably they must have European crew familiar with German systems. Although I would assume Eurostar staff who work to London don’t have German training so 3 crews could be needed unless DB staff worked to Brussels

Most Eurostar services swap crews in Brussels anyway, and Eurostar Blue and Red share drivers north of Brussels (who are employed by NS), so no reason the same couldn't apply towards Germany.

 

[AndrewE]

I'm sorry but I think they mean staff training rather than running to the town of Crewe.
It would be nice to see regional trains to Europe but currently this is unlikely.

I think they did too, but the opportunity for a slightly sarky joke was just too good to miss.

 

[Mikey C]

Eurostar already runs to Cologne so presumably they must have European crew familiar with German systems. Although I would assume Eurostar staff who work to London don’t have German training so 3 crews could be needed unless DB staff worked to Brussels

There are no direct trains to Cologne

 

[Peterthegreat]

There are no direct trains to Cologne

Eurostar operates Paris to Cologne.

 

[Mikey C]

Eurostar operates Paris to Cologne.

I'm assuming Eurostar Red and Blue are operated separately though. The Red ones are entirely within Schengen, so have none of the complications of the Blue ones.

 

[zwk500]

There are no direct trains to Cologne

Eurostar now includes former Thalys services

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm assuming Eurostar Red and Blue are operated separately though. The Red ones are entirely within Schengen, so have none of the complications of the Blue ones.

They're not fully operationally separate, Eurostar red services have been operated by class 374s occasionally, and the NS-employed drivers that work Eurostar blue all also work Eurostar Red.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Thank you. I guess the 'hilarious under-use' is due to Brexit, Covid and Working From Home, prices and timings in competition with air flights, travel to St Pancras, all on top of antipathy to 'the French'/ 'Jonny Foriner' etc etc, not anticipated by Mrs Thatcher when she 'signed up'.

To be honest, most of it is down to the security theatre required at each end for international journeys, and the very high track access fees on HS1. Brexit didn’t put on any additional barriers aside from ETIAS, and Eurostar are almost, but not completely, back up to pre-covid frequency.

 

[Amalie]

Eurostar already runs to Cologne so presumably they must have European crew familiar with German systems. Although I would assume Eurostar staff who work to London don’t have German training

It should go without saying but the UK is still European. I’m not too worried about lacking trained staff as it’s not uncommon for them to use multiple drivers already.

Eurostar services between The Netherlands and the UK/France are done using 2 different drivers, which are changed in Brussels. One driver knows the British/French and Belgian system, the other knows the Belgian and Dutch one. I’m presuming it might be similar with their services between Germany and France, and they can do the same thing for Germany-London services.

 

[Farnborough]

Short of looking back over more than 1300 posts (sorry) is 'extension' of services through the Channel Tunnel (at either or both ends) intended to be in addition to or in substitution for existing services London to/from Paris/ Brussels? How much 'spare' capacity is there? Seems to me the principal constraint is Britain's requirements regarding customs/ immigration control, as witnessed by 'closures' at Ashford and Stratford and no link to HS2, or anything else in GB. Unless and until that changes I see only hot air.

If we ignore the elephant that is border controls, your capacity question is just as pertinent...

Just how many "spare" Chunnel paths are there? Neither Eurostar nor Le Shuttle will want to surrender any of their paths, neither will the freight operators. So just where are all of these extra paths coming from?

Maybe we need a couple more tunnel bores, and quad-tracking of HS1...

[Wake up Farnborough, you're dreaming...]

 

[Trainbike46]

If we ignore the elephant that is border controls, your capacity question is just as pertinent...

Just how many "spare" Chunnel paths are there? Neither Eurostar nor Le Shuttle will want to surrender any of their paths, neither will the freight operators. So just where are all of these extra paths coming from?

Maybe we need a couple more tunnel bores, and quad-tracking of HS1...

[Wake up Farnborough, you're dreaming...]

See my post below, but the paths through the channel tunnel aren't remotely limiting. There is 4/5 passenger train paths through the tunnel per hour (depending on th hour), and more could be found if that ever did become limiting. New operators or services won't have to steal any current operators paths.

The channel tunnel has 4 fast passenger paths every hour, and a fifth path in certain hours. These paths also exist on HS1. The limiting factor is the border capacity at St. Pancras, but that has already increased, and is due to increase further (planned to go up to 5000 pax/hour, or 5.5 class 374s worth of pax/hour).

For the new destinations, if they happen:
- Geneva will be a new service, possibly calling at MLV
- Milan will be a new service, possibly calling at MLV
- Extra Amsterdam trains likely will be a mix of extensions of Brussels services and new services (also serving Brussels)
- Germany services will likely be a mix of extended Brussels services and new services (also serving Brussels)

It also looks likely that the frequency of Paris services will increase.

Most Eurostar services swap crews in Brussels anyway, and Eurostar Blue and Red share drivers north of Brussels (who are employed by NS), so no reason the same couldn't apply towards Germany.

 

[30907]

Köln to Berlin via Frankfurt isn't the most obvious route - and would be at least an hour slower that the direct line via Hamm / Hannover. There would also be the faffing around at Frankfurt Hbf reversing - unless the Airport station is used. Still if you have opted to travel from London to Berlin by train what's another hour or so?

Frankfurt is far more important commercially than Berlin, and with a new high-speed section planned south of Fulda the onward journey to Berlin should be somewhat faster.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The channel tunnel has 4 fast passenger paths every hour, and a fifth path in certain hours. These paths also exist on HS1. The limiting factor is the border capacity at St. Pancras, but that has already increased, and is due to increase further (planned to go up to 5000 pax/hour, or 5.5 class 374s worth of pax/hour).

So for simple maths should we allocate 8tph, (6tph normal service and 2tph recovery) to international services?

 

[Mikey C]

Will domestic passengers be allowed to use the service between Frankfurt and Berlin? If not, that's a very long distance for not many passengers on board.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Will domestic passengers be allowed to use the service between Frankfurt and Berlin? If not, that's a very long distance for not many passengers on board.

I could imagine they would be permitted in the heading away from London direction.

 

[NCT]

I can't see how Berlin or Frankfurt (let alone Cologne) would have space for security and border facilities, especially Berlin which is designed as a complete open plan.

My money is still in the train being 'direct' in inverted commas where passengers are put through a Brussels Shuffle.

 

[Trainbike46]

So for simple maths should we allocate 8tph, (6tph normal service and 2tph recovery) to international services?

Is there any likelyhood of anyone running that many trains - remember currently there are rarely more than 2 tph per direction from Eurostar. 4-5 tph is already more than doubling the service, and there is scope for increasing the number of passengers per train, both by losing the lower-capacity 373s (which only have around 750 pax capacity), and by introducing new higher capacity double-deck stock (at around 1100 pax for a 400m train). If you assume a 50-50 mix of 374s and new 1100-seat trains, 5 paths would fit exactly with 5000 pax/hour capacity planned for St Pancras.

8 tph would have a very negative impact on SE Highspeed services, which I don't think is likely to be acceptable, especially not until anyone is actually proposing to run that many trains!

 

[HSTEd]

The only way 8tph would be feasible would probably be a total modernisation of HS1, with additional tunnel access shafts and ETCS signalling (probably L3 Hybrid).
It would cost billions, and I can't see there being a market for that many trains in any case.

 

[Farnborough]

The channel tunnel has 4 fast passenger paths every hour, and a fifth path in certain hours. These paths also exist on HS1.

Presumably, these are the 00:01/00:31, 00:04/00:34 departure pairs from StP (and the corresponding xx:27/xx:57 and xx:00/xx:30 arrivals) ?

While not all are used, I was under the (misapprehension?) that these were allocated for Eurostar services - certainly the route numbers have spaces for the missing trains...

 

[Trainbike46]

Presumably, these are the 00:01/00:31, 00:04/00:34 departure pairs from StP (and the corresponding xx:27/xx:57 and xx:00/xx:30 arrivals) ?

yes. The 5th one is the .16 departure at certain hours, but I don't think that is available every hour, though it may well be possible to add a 5th path at most hourse if needed.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Is there any likelyhood of anyone running that many trains - remember currently there are rarely more than 2 tph per direction from Eurostar. 4-5 tph is already more than doubling the service, and there is scope for increasing the number of passengers per train, both by losing the lower-capacity 373s (which only have around 750 pax capacity), and by introducing new higher capacity double-deck stock (at around 1100 pax for a 400m train). If you assume a 50-50 mix of 374s and new 1100-seat trains, 5 paths would fit exactly with 5000 pax/hour capacity planned for St Pancras.

8 tph would have a very negative impact on SE Highspeed services, which I don't think is likely to be acceptable, especially not until anyone is actually proposing to run that many trains!

The maximum number of international services would be 6tph, with an extra 2 paths an hour to be used as fire break paths.

Southeastern MD Steve White has said High Speed might need extra trains to handle the increasing demand, so this could be the perfect chance to order 186mph units for the via Ashford services and put the 140mph 395s on via Gravesend services.

 

[Trainbike46]

The maximum number of international services would be 6tph, with an extra 2 paths an hour to be used as fire break paths.

Whether you use them or not, those paths are in the way of Kent services. There is no proposals for running anything close to that many international services, and St Pancras doesn't have the capacity for them anyway, so why interfere with Kent services for no benefit.

Southeastern MD Steve White has said High Speed might need extra trains to handle the increasing demand, so this could be the perfect chance to order 186mph units for the via Ashford services and put the 140mph 395s on via Gravesend services.

You know the those are the same services, operated as a loop starting/ending at STP, right?

 

[Krokodil]

Yeah, let's try to walk first before we try to run.