Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[NCT]

I'm not at all sold on high-speed double deckers. From 760mm platforms it's a lot nicer to step up to the 1200mm floor height than to step down to the TGV floor height to get go all the way upstairs. For an equivalent interior layout the capacity uplift of a coupled TGV Duplex double set over a 16-car train is actually quite small (no higher than 20%). And if we are to be really honest about providing equivalent luggage space and door width per seat, then that capacity uplift is even smaller.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm not at all sold on high-speed double deckers. From 760mm platforms it's a lot nicer to step up to the 1200mm floor height than to step down to the TGV floor height to get go all the way upstairs. For an equivalent interior layout the capacity uplift of a coupled TGV Duplex double set over a 16-car train is actually quite small (no higher than 20%). And if we are to be really honest about providing equivalent luggage space and door width per seat, then that capacity uplift is even smaller.

I agree a TGV duplex is unlikely to be as nice as a well-designed single-decker high-speed train, especially when in 760mm land (like hs1) instead of 550mm (like most of France), but TGV duplex is certainly a possibility for cross-channel services.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not at all sold on high-speed double deckers. From 760mm platforms it's a lot nicer to step up to the 1200mm floor height than to step down to the TGV floor height to get go all the way upstairs. For an equivalent interior layout the capacity uplift of a coupled TGV Duplex double set over a 16-car train is actually quite small (no higher than 20%). And if we are to be really honest about providing equivalent luggage space and door width per seat, then that capacity uplift is even smaller.

The uplift is less than 20% because the TGV Duplex family as is in service now is fundamentally a train from the 1990s and has a whole bunch of electrical equipment in the passenger vehicles.
The TGV-M will take it back to more like 40% uplift.

Given the low top speed on the LGV Nord, its likely you could design a pair of power cars with sufficient performance on a 400m formation if you want. Especially with the new trailers, if you are short performance you can just take the trick from the Class 373 and stuff a pair of AGV motor bogies into the ends of the trailer formation. I think the 9.3MW of the last series of Duplex power cars would probably get you most of the way there.

It wouldn't take much to match the power to weight ratio of the Class 373 at the end of the day given how much lighter the TGV-M trailers are.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Article on Rail Magazine’s site says Virgin have “Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets for the company’s Channel Tunnel bid which it is currently exploring.”

Virgin opts for single-decker trains for its Channel Tunnel bid

Virgin and Alstom have entered a binding agreement for the train manufacturer to supply 12 of its Avelia Stream sets

www.railmagazine.com

As a brief update to this, the article appears to have been updated since yesterday to include some concept images and a detail that the trains will be quad voltage - I.e. suitable for German and Swiss operations

Further details are that Virgin have been discussing Ebbsfleet and Ashford with Kent County Council, although there are no firm plans on that.

The concept art displays what appears to be an AGV unit in a rather dashing red Virgin livery.

 

[TheGrew]

Part of me hopes they may bring back a Disney train, at least in the peak holiday season. Virgin Holidays does seem to do quite good business on the Orlando run serving Disney.

 

[Trainbike46]

Part of me hopes they may bring back a Disney train, at least in the peak holiday season. Virgin Holidays does seem to do quite good business on the Orlando run serving Disney.

I think there is a reasonable chance MLV/Disney will come back, but I suspect as a stop on the Geneva service (if/when that happens) with full border controls at MLV.

The reason they went was the desire to eliminate UK border controls on arrival, and I don't think those will come back.

 

[Snow1964]

Could someone invent a measure of progress on this, including steps like a memorandum of understanding (Switzerland) towards a treaty that has been signed (Germany), someone has ordered trains (France served by the Italian company?), the trains are in service (France, Netherlands, Belgium all by Eurostar only).

Do the pessimists know why these governments are making the deals we see reported if it’s never going to become a service?

Keeps a few people pen pushing.

Seriously, all the DfT is doing is setting up a task force to look at direct trains to Germany. Note the wording is not actually develop a train service, but instead a pathetically feeble 'potential for direct rail services', something that is just a list of possibles and reasons against.

Joint declaration of intent that formalises the governments’ commitment to developing a direct international rail connection between the UK and Germany, involving the:

• Department for Transport (DfT)
• Federal Ministry of Transport (BMV) of the Federal Republic of Germany

This joint declaration of intent will establish government cooperation to explore the potential for direct rail services between the UK and Germany. This will include creating a taskforce to take forward this work.
The taskforce’s work will focus on addressing barriers to developing direct connections and topics, including:

• establishing border and security controls
• identifying capacity
• addressing regulatory requirements

Published 14 August 2025

Joint declaration of intent to develop direct rail passenger services between the UK and Germany

Defines how the UK Department for Transport and the German Federal Ministry of Transport will cooperate to develop direct rail services between the two countries.

www.gov.uk

 

[TheWierdOne]

Virgin signs deal for 12 new trains in challenge to Eurostar

The French manufacturer Alstom will supply Sir Richard Branson’s company with the latest version of the Pendolino tilting trains

www.thetimes.com

The Times of London have picked up on Virgin’s deal with Alstom.

The key points:
- Virgin has secured “binding exclusivity” for 12 Avelia Stream units
- They claim to have £700 million of funding ready to go
- Virgin plans to have a 50% stake in the new operator


The words binding exclusivity make me think that Virgin has agreed to buy 12 Avelias, but only if they get granted track access by the ORR

 

[danshrimp]

Some worthwhile analysis from Jon Worth about this: https://crossborderrail.trainsforeu...-12-alstom-trains-for-channel-tunnel-stories/

OK, we have three pieces of “news” to go on – a story from The Times, a Richard Branson column in The Times, and this from Rail Magazine – that Virgin Trains is to order 12 high speed trains from Alstom.

The central point: Virgin Trains is one of three companies (Evolyn/Trenitalia and Gemini are the other two) that wants to rival Eurostar on long distance high speed routes through the Channel Tunnel. This autumn the UK’s Office for Rail and Road will adjudicate which operator, if any, will be granted access to the Temple Mills depot in east London to maintain its trains for these services, and this Virgin news should be seen in that light – it is essentially “if we, Virgin Trains, are allocated the capacity at Temple Mills, this is what we plan to do”.

That is also the most plausible explanation for the words “binding agreement” in the Rail Magazine piece, and “Virgin has “secured binding exclusivity” with Alstom for a dozen Avelia Stream trains” in The Times. If we get the capacity, we order.

But that is only the tip of the iceberg.

This news from Virgin throws up as many additional questions as it answers.

As far as I know, no other operator has even been considering Alstom Avelia Stream. Eurostar, the incumbent, is supposed to favour another Alstom product – the double deck Avelia Horizon rather than the single deck Stream. And my assumption is that Evolyn/Trenitalia would only consider Hitachi, and my best guess was that Gemini would consider Hitachi and/or Siemens, as both Hitachi and Siemens designs are proven and the order book for both companies comparatively short.

While Alstom’s website is rather unclear on the point – it lumps very different ex-Bombardier and ex-Alstom Italy products under the Stream label – this train for Virgin would be essentially a souped up non-tilting Pendolino design. The closest equivalents are the ED250 running in Poland and ETR 675 for Italo in Italy, but those have a maximum speed of 250km/h. We know a 300km/h version of this train is in the works, because French high speed startup Kevin Speed intends to buy them, and to secure paths on French high speed lines, 300km/h is a must. But choosing Stream is a risk – these designs have not yet been approved to run in France (and French legacy signalling system TVM430 is going to be needed), and when the new 300km/h version is going to be available is not known.

The news from Virgin also poses a question for Eurostar – as despite it being rumoured for 15 months now, there is no news of a contract being signed by the incumbent operator for new trains. And if Virgin is to go with Alstom, why the single deck design rather than the double deck Avelia Horizon? And does that decision made by Virgin possibly give us reason to think Eurostar might have an issue with the double deck design as well – perhaps due to delivery delays, and being behind SNCF (115 trains), Proxima (12) and ONCF (18)?

And then there are the trains themselves. Stream is normally a 7 carriage, 200m long design – meaning you need 2 coupled together to get a train the same capacity as a Eurostar e320 that’s 400m. So a fleet of 12 Stream trains is equivalent to 6 Eurostars. You cannot really offer very much with a fleet that size, although you could conceivably maintain all of them at Temple Mills and not need maintenance in France or Belgium.

And then Virgin says in The Times that it intends to run to Paris, Bruxelles and Amsterdam, with the idea to expand further in future. And makes no mention of interim stops. Which is peculiar, as one of the biggest upsides of the Stream design is fast boarding (single deck) and swift acceleration (many powered axles) – so stops in Ebbsfleet or Ashford would be easier with this type of train than with a double deck design with few doors and few powered axles.

So that’s what today’s news deciphered. If more facts about all of this emerge I will update the blog post accordingly!

As he essentially says, this seems to ask more questions than it answers!

 

[SynthD]

Seriously, all the DfT is doing is setting up a task force to look at direct trains to Germany. Note the wording is not actually develop a train service, but instead a pathetically feeble 'potential for direct rail services', something that is just a list of possibles and reasons against.

That makes sense. The government has to create the potential by dealing with the crossing international borders part of it. The private companies then use that potential by running a service. The government can't announce that any company has committed to running currently impossible services, so this potential is the way out of the chicken and egg problem.

 

[Sorcerer]

The concept art on Rail Magazine looks interesting to say the least. Not sure about the livery application personally, I think it's a bet messy, but the highlight is the train itself. It looks like an EMU adaptation of the Avelia Liberty, which would fall under the Avelia Stream platform and be capable of 300km/h. Not sure how I feel about it to be honest, and I was kind of hoping for a faster ETR 675 variant, but I expect the final design would look a bit different as is usually the case.

 

[Fincra5]

They might be hedging their bets, risk minimisation for a train leasing Co, with alternatives if a Virgin service across channel doesn't work out.

Hmmm, yeah, that makes sense.

 

[D6130]

The concept art on Rail Magazine looks interesting to say the least. Not sure about the livery application personally, I think it's a bet messy, but the highlight is the train itself. It looks like an EMU adaptation of the Avelia Liberty, which would fall under the Avelia Stream platform and be capable of 300km/h. Not sure how I feel about it to be honest, and I was kind of hoping for a faster ETR 675 variant, but I expect the final design would look a bit different as is usually the case.

To me it looks like a cross between an ETR 575 and and ETR 675.

 

[vuzzeho]

Another render. It's nice but looks quite plain. It almost definitely won't look like that in the end. I wonder if they'll keep any elements (other than the... red) from the VTWC or VTEC liveries.

 

[Sorcerer]

Another render. It's nice but looks quite plain. It almost definitely won't look like that in the end. I wonder if they'll keep any elements (other than the... red) from the VTWC or VTEC liveries.

I wonder if some sort of adaptation of the flowing silk livery might've been a decent option. One issue I have with this one here is how much of the driving coaches are red and then the trailer coaches are mostly white without any transition.

 

[zwk500]

Is it just the angle or are the carriage doors in that livery not PRM compliant?

 

[NCT]

I can't quite tell from the render (or indeed if anything should be read literally at this moment) - is that train with short carriages and jacob bogies or 'traditional' ~25m length carriages?

 

[vuzzeho]

Is it just the angle or are the carriage doors in that livery not PRM compliant?

They are not PRM compliant.

I can't quite tell from the render (or indeed if anything should be read literally at this moment) - is that train with short carriages and jacob bogies or 'traditional' ~25m length carriages?

Looks traditional to me.

 

[TheWierdOne]

They are not PRM compliant.

What would make them non-compliant?

 

[NCT]

What would make them non-compliant?

That the door is not in a contrasting colour from the surrounding livery, is I think the point being made.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's not easy to see but if you look closely you can see the doors are red against the white bodyshell, albeit they only seem to be at one end of each carriage. Would that not make them PRM compliant? I can't say because I'm not visually impaired, but I would argue it looks about as compliant as Avanti's livery. If it's not then Virgin will probably just add dark greyish-black doors like they did on the Pendolinos in their later years.

 

[Cloud Strife]

As he essentially says, this seems to ask more questions than it answers!

I'm not a massive fan of his reporting, but six Eurostars of capacity seems to be very reasonable for a challenger on the route. They don't need to put 400m trains through from day 1, it will be enough to fill 12 200m trains daily to prove that the business model works, and if they can all be accommodated in the UK for maintenance purposes, even better. A smaller train will also allow them to offer shorter check-in times, so I think that he's missing the point somewhat here.

Having said that, it should be absolutely clear to any challenger that being given space in the depot is conditional on reopening at least one of the currently mothballed stations, or even bringing Stratford International into use.

 

[Snow1964]

Virgin signs deal for 12 new trains in challenge to Eurostar

The French manufacturer Alstom will supply Sir Richard Branson’s company with the latest version of the Pendolino tilting trains

www.thetimes.com

The Times of London have picked up on Virgin’s deal with Alstom.

The key points:
- Virgin has secured “binding exclusivity” for 12 Avelia Stream units
- They claim to have £700 million of funding ready to go
- Virgin plans to have a 50% stake in the new operator


The words binding exclusivity make me think that Virgin has agreed to buy 12 Avelias, but only if they get granted track access by the ORR

Of course Virgin group have form of previously ordering and not taking delivery.
Years ago they ordered some Airbus A380s, kept deferring them, and eventually cancelled the order

 

[TheWierdOne]

Having said that, it should be absolutely clear to any challenger that being given space in the depot is conditional on reopening at least one of the currently mothballed stations, or even bringing Stratford International into use.

I don’t think that making use of any intermediate HS1 stations a condition of access would fly (pardon the intermodal pun) without some form of support from local or national government, or the strategic transport authorities that Labour has been banging on about recently. As far as I know we don’t have actual passenger numbers but I think by all accounts they weren’t good.

I know a favoured argument on this forum is that Kent stations could be a railhead for a wider area, but I think we all forget that international travel is still quite unusual for a lot of people, especially in hard times such as these, and Kent has a lot of cheaper options than Eurostar for people who do want to travel to the continent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2025 ==

That the door is not in a contrasting colour from the surrounding livery, is I think the point being made.

Ah gotcha, perhaps a return to the original Virgin Pendolino livery? A favourite of mine as I grew up with it.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not a massive fan of his reporting, but six Eurostars of capacity seems to be very reasonable for a challenger on the route. They don't need to put 400m trains through from day 1, it will be enough to fill 12 200m trains daily to prove that the business model works, and if they can all be accommodated in the UK for maintenance purposes, even better. A smaller train will also allow them to offer shorter check-in times, so I think that he's missing the point somewhat here.

I suspect that the infrastructure access charges will mean 400m is the only economic train length, whether by 2x200m units or a single 400m set. HS1, Getlink and SNCF all have fixed per-train charges as well as the channel tunnel's per-passenger charges.

 

[Snow1964]

That the door is not in a contrasting colour from the surrounding livery, is I think the point being made.

I don't think the PRM regulations say the whole door has to be contrasting colour, from memory it refers to contrasting colour at floor level.

I think it is worded more to prevent poorly sighted people tripping over thresholds and steps, and locate door opening switches, rather than not being able to spot an open doorway.

 

[Krokodil]

I suspect that the infrastructure access charges will mean 400m is the only economic train length, whether by 2x200m units or a single 400m set. HS1, Getlink and SNCF all have fixed per-train charges as well as the channel tunnel's per-passenger charges.

2x200m would be the safest option as it allows the ROSCO to more easily find a new home in the event of the venture failing.

 

[Snow1964]

I suspect that the infrastructure access charges will mean 400m is the only economic train length, whether by 2x200m units or a single 400m set. HS1, Getlink and SNCF all have fixed per-train charges as well as the channel tunnel's per-passenger charges.

The section of TGV Nord from Calais to Lille is not heavily used, how do the charges/tariffs work if you run double units Lille-London, but then split them to 2 different destinations in Europe as two 200m units

 

[zwk500]

The section of TGV Nord from Calais to Lille is not heavily used, how do the charges/tariffs work if you run double units Lille-London, but then split them to 2 different destinations in Europe as two 200m units

I don't know of the top of my head, but a couple of days ago when it came up I looked and the bulk of the charges were by train-km, with different prices for different sections of infrastructure. As with all railways in the EU, publication of the access charges is a requirement, and they do publish the relevant annexe in English!

Bear in mind that for all 3 railways there is not 1 access charge, but several components all calculated differently that need to be added together, and it will vary based on long-term plans or short-term additionals, etc, etc....

 

[martin2345uk]

2x200m would be the safest option as it allows the ROSCO to more easily find a new home in the event of the venture failing.

A new home in Europe would that be?