First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[Steve440]

Go Ahead & Transdev? They see an incentive.

First is about to enter an interesting era as they lose all of their rail and a lot of their largest bus operations franchise and even assuming they win a few of those operations back they won't be running them at existing margins. They should really be developing relationships with authorities and continuing as normal up to the transition. Other companies see value in not completely giving up in the transition period.

To be fair, Go Ahead are only operating tendered routes, not commercial so the argument doesn't apply.

 

[Leedsbusman]

To be fair, Go Ahead are only operating tendered routes, not commercial so the argument doesn't apply.

I disagree, their services may be tendered but they take the revenue risk and thus have the incentive still to maximise their volumes and therefore revenue.

 

[Bristol LHS]

To be fair, Go Ahead are only operating tendered routes, not commercial so the argument doesn't apply.

and take a look at the sorry state of Go North East and tell me Go-Ahead aren’t adopting the same strategy in the area where they have something to lose, rather than gain.

 

[Snex]

and take a look at the sorry state of Go North East and tell me Go-Ahead aren’t adopting the same strategy in the area where they have something to lose, rather than gain.

Must say glad someone mentioned the North East. GoNorthWest in Manchester were just as bad, Stagecoach put them to complete shame the last few months before franchising came in.

GoNorthEast and GoNorthWest were/are truly awful in the limbo state before franchising, arguably much worse than First and Arriva.

Is Transdev even affected? Most their routes are in North Yorkshire so I'd assume they'd be outside the scope of the franchising anyway?

 

[GoneSouth]

This limbo state sounds like an unpleasant unintended consequence. Is everything in the Bee network working well after franchising? What does the future look like for west Yorks, and if it ever happens in Bristol and the West

 

[mattb7tl]

I wouldn't dismiss GNE.

I think the issues they do have (and they have a lot) aren't too relevant to this conversation. They continue to experiment and make changes based on customer feedback and partnership despite franchising. They see an incentive in not being bone idle.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

and take a look at the sorry state of Go North East and tell me Go-Ahead aren’t adopting the same strategy in the area where they have something to lose, rather than gain.

Yes, they aren't adopting the same strategy. The problems with Go North East are nothing to do with franchising. For a start...

• There were already some troubling signs in terms of passenger numbers before Covid - that was exacerbated by the decline after Covid
• As I've mentioned before, the Gilbert era was strong on marketing, but low on service delivery
• Go North East opened a new depot in Consett that is arguably in the wrong place (replacing Stanley); they then closed Chester le Street depot resulting in reliability going through the floor, loss of drivers, interworking etc.
• Then they removed the allowances for drivers to head to these revised depot locations and that precipitated a ruinous and ill tempered strike

Remember that they had a strike at Go North West in 2021, whilst they were still preparing for the start of Bee Network tendering (and GNW did quite well in T1) so hardly like they were sat on their hands. Also, GNW did clear out most of the knackered ex First B7 single decks and at least refurbed some of the B9s.

IIRC, both Diamond and Stagecoach struck deals regarding putting new stock into Manchester so their investment was protected.

First has obviously put in new vehicles into Leeds. The rest of West Yorkshire has always placed second fiddle with First. Moreover, the scourge of AI inspired timetabling is something that First have pursued across the country. So I would argue that this is not some sinister plan, aimed at wrecking the Kirklees bus network. It's just simple ineptitude.

Is Transdev even affected? Most their routes are in North Yorkshire so I'd assume they'd be outside the scope of the franchising anyway?

Erm, Keighley is their largest Yorkshire depot. They also have depots at Idle (mainly for Flyer TBH), Elland and Huddersfield so pretty well placed/affected.

 

[Bristol LHS]

Yes, they aren't adopting the same strategy. The problems with Go North East are nothing to do with franchising. For a start...

• There were already some troubling signs in terms of passenger numbers before Covid - that was exacerbated by the decline after Covid
• As I've mentioned before, the Gilbert era was strong on marketing, but low on service delivery
• Go North East opened a new depot in Consett that is arguably in the wrong place (replacing Stanley); they then closed Chester le Street depot resulting in reliability going through the floor, loss of drivers, interworking etc.
• Then they removed the allowances for drivers to head to these revised depot locations and that precipitated a ruinous and ill tempered strike

This really isn’t the right thread for this, but seeing as I started the diversion…. I don’t disagree that those are the factors that led GNE to where they are. But strategy is about where you’re going - and I think it’s pretty clear GNE are ticking over waiting for franchising. The marketing has all but ceased, there’s no innovation, and when was the last time they got a new service bus? The Voltra launch three years ago..? Knackered dual door deckers running around on the X21 and 21. I find it hard to believe the group would be letting things stagnate the way they are if the group’s future in the North East was commercial, rather than contractual.

 

[Andyh82]

Has this whole line of thought kicked off because First are tinkering around the edges dropping some journeys here and there?

It seems to have escalated quickly, if you came in at this point you’d think they were making major withdrawals to whole services

 

[mattb7tl]

Has this whole line of thought kicked off because First are tinkering around the edges dropping some journeys here and there?

It seems to have escalated quickly, if you came in at this point you’d think they were making major withdrawals to whole services

That is a chunk but the conversation evolved more into the approach the company has taken during the transition period.

They carry most of the patronage in region (roughly 70%). Franchising aims to introduce more competition and reduce monopolies (commonly 25%+) so out of any operator in the region they are going to lose market share. In response? It seems they have done nothing but display a lack of care and competence. They have not bothered to accurately describe their own service changes, and that is just the icing.

They take this approach as other companies keep up appearances and service levels and or invest substantially to prove themselves and build a relationship ahead of the bidding process.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This really isn’t the right thread for this, but seeing as I started the diversion…. I don’t disagree that those are the factors that led GNE to where they are. But strategy is about where you’re going - and I think it’s pretty clear GNE are ticking over waiting for franchising. The marketing has all but ceased, there’s no innovation, and when was the last time they got a new service bus? The Voltra launch three years ago..? Knackered dual door deckers running around on the X21 and 21. I find it hard to believe the group would be letting things stagnate the way they are if the group’s future in the North East was commercial, rather than contractual.

Go North East lost £1.2m in 2021, and over £4m in 2022. It returned to profit in 2023 but then had the strike. No real surprise that they haven't been investing in new vehicles in that time. Don't get me wrong - I think the GNE fleet is as poorly presented and service reliability is as bad as I've ever known but I don't think it's to do with franchising. I remember discussing GNE with an industry friend in 2019 - despite some innovations at the time (e.g. X Lines), we had concerns about the direction of travel. Covid then struck and we were discussing how GNE would be in a hole compared to Stagecoach (and so it proved).

Also, when did the change begin? Was it when the management changed? Perhaps having a senior MD responsible for both NW and NE delegating to a relatively inexperienced manager in the NE, whilst the Featham was busy sorting out the Manchester bid and tranche 1 implementation?

I might add that they were keen to get their hands on Arriva's North Tyneside services when they closed Jesmond/Walkergate so not entirely passive either. It is clear that GNE isn't the firm it was 5 years ago and it does need investment though arguably, it also needs stability and some clear steps to getting the basics right. That hasn't happened since the arrival of Gilbert.

That is a chunk but the conversation evolved more into the approach the company has taken during the transition period.

They carry most of the patronage in region (roughly 70%). Franchising aims to introduce more competition and reduce monopolies (commonly 25%+) so out of any operator in the region they are going to lose market share. In response? It seems they have done nothing but display a lack of care and competence. They have not bothered to accurately describe their own service changes, and that is just the icing.

They take this approach as other companies keep up appearances and service levels and or invest substantially to prove themselves and build a relationship ahead of the bidding process.

Except this is evidenced across First, not just West Yorkshire. A reduction in back office headcount and a reliance on AI generated timetables is (sadly) commonplace. What is West Yorkshire specific is the lack of creativity but that is nothing new.

 

[Snex]

Erm, Keighley is their largest Yorkshire depot. They also have depots at Idle (mainly for Flyer TBH), Elland and Huddersfield so pretty well placed/affected.

Thanks for that, wasn't too sure how the Keighley side worked so was a bit naive on that side. Had a feeling they might have had an secondary depot outside somewhere and the main routes would be also out the scope of it since that's their main destination. I believe the Mainlines are all Burnley operated though if I'm correct?

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for that, wasn't too sure how the Keighley side worked so was a bit naive on that side. Had a feeling they might have had an secondary depot outside somewhere and the main routes would be also out the scope of it since that's their main destination. I believe the Mainlines are all Burnley operated though if I'm correct?

From Keighley depot the half-hourly 66 is the only commercial operation to leave the county. There's quite a few Sunday Dalesbus services between West and North Yorkshire (5 buses to operate them all I think with 2 of them staying in North Yorkshire apart from the first and last buses).

Keighley has a few reasonably high frequency estate services, 3 bph to Leeds and 5 bph to Bradford and a few subsidised services which mostly used to be run by smaller operators. Only 1 non-school service in Keighley is now not run by Transdev.

Only 2 Mainline routes come into Yorkshire. The M6 (roughly) hourly to Skipton in North Yorkshire and the M4 (mostly) half hourly through North Yorkshire and then West Yorkshire to Keighley.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for that, wasn't too sure how the Keighley side worked so was a bit naive on that side. Had a feeling they might have had an secondary depot outside somewhere and the main routes would be also out the scope of it since that's their main destination. I believe the Mainlines are all Burnley operated though if I'm correct?

Mainline is indeed operated from Burnley.

Keighley is the big Yorkshire operation, and it has a satellite school bus operation based in the town. The local routes will be in scope as well as the main Shuttle, Aireline, and Brontebus routes. A few routes head over the border to Skipton (and a couple of ones in North Yorkshire) but otherwise it'll be in scope for Ms Brabin's ambitions. Is the 64 supported @Deerfold?

Having taken on the Flyer work, Transdev then took over the Yorkshire Tiger ops at Elland and Huddersfield. The latter has had several owners in recent years, and was part of Alex Hornby's expansionist ambition with the Team Pennine brand introduced and some new vehicles.

 

[Deerfold]

Has this whole line of thought kicked off because First are tinkering around the edges dropping some journeys here and there?

It seems to have escalated quickly, if you came in at this point you’d think they were making major withdrawals to whole services

First have been dropping frequencies regularly for several years and losing last buses. Bradford and Halifax have very little leaving after 2200 now, even on corridors that used to have 6 bph during the day and last buses after 2300. The late evening service to Ripponden, which I used to use regularly has gone from being roughly half hourly until 2325 to having the last two buses at 1920 and 2120. There's no direct service after 1817 from Halifax to Rochdale with no convenient connections to the services at Hebden Bridge. There's no direct buses from Burnley to Halifax between 1706 and 2019 (the short buses between them miss the hourly service from Todmorden to Halifax by 2 and 15 minutes)! The Hebden Bridge corridor used to be one the busiest First had in Calderdale.

Many areas have fewer than half the buses they had just a few years ago. Other operators seem to have had far fewer cuts - I live in a far more rural area, but all three of my local commercial services leave Keighley after 2000 (2211, 2225 and 2300, with the latter two returning from Ilkley and Skipton in service at 2313 and 2340).

It's just a few routes each timetable change but it's a massive cumulative effect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==

Mainline is indeed operated from Burnley.

Keighley is the big Yorkshire operation, and it has a satellite school bus operation based in the town. The local routes will be in scope as well as the main Shuttle, Aireline, and Brontebus routes. A few routes head over the border to Skipton (and a couple of ones in North Yorkshire) but otherwise it'll be in scope for Ms Brabin's ambitions. Is the 64 supported @Deerfold?

Having taken on the Flyer work, Transdev then took over the Yorkshire Tiger ops at Elland and Huddersfield. The latter has had several owners in recent years, and was part of Alex Hornby's expansionist ambition with the Team Pennine brand introduced and some new vehicles.

I'd forgotten the 64, despite it being a pretty run, as that used to be run by Flyer. I believe it does receive some funding (at the very least since it returned to hourly from 2-hourly). Keighley operate the 72 with subsidy, which is entirely in North Yorkshire, too.

 

[Ken H]

First have been dropping frequencies regularly for several years and losing last buses. Bradford and Halifax have very little leaving after 2200 now, even on corridors that used to have 6 bph during the day and last buses after 2300. The late evening service to Ripponden, which I used to use regularly has gone from being roughly half hourly until 2325 to having the last two buses at 1920 and 2120. There's no direct service after 1817 from Halifax to Rochdale with no convenient connections to the services at Hebden Bridge. There's no direct buses from Burnley to Halifax between 1706 and 2019 (the short buses between them miss the hourly service from Todmorden to Halifax by 2 and 15 minutes)! The Hebden Bridge corridor used to be one the busiest First had in Calderdale.

Many areas have fewer than half the buses they had just a few years ago. Other operators seem to have had far fewer cuts - I live in a far more rural area, but all three of my local commercial services leave Keighley after 2000 (2211, 2225 and 2300, with the latter two returning from Ilkley and Skipton in service at 2313 and 2340).

It's just a few routes each timetable change but it's a massive cumulative effect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==


I'd forgotten the 64, despite it being a pretty run, as that used to be run by Flyer. I believe it does receive some funding (at the very least since it returned to hourly from 2-hourly). Keighley operate the 72 with subsidy, which is entirely in North Yorkshire, too.

Ilkley - Skipton was core West yorkshire Road Car territory. Used to be Skipton-Tadcaster, then an extension of the Leeds - Ilkley 34
When WYRCC sold part of their business it became a First route, X84
During Covid, First withdrew from the Ilkley-Skipton section. Transdev took it over, and gave it route 64
The thing was complicated in that the railway bridge on Otley Rd was too low for first double deckers, so they routed it up the High Street.
Bus on the 64 is a Volvo B7RLE Wright Eclipse Urban but they interwork with the 62 Keighley - Ilkley to some degree

 

[gc4946]

Franchising cannot come soon enough in West Yorkshire.
A busy corridor, York Road, Leeds, First West Yorkshire cut daytime frequencies; indeed, currently, except for the 56, First's buses run hourly on evenings, prior to Covid they ran half hourly evenings, they now also finish earlier as well.
Checking Metro's Your Next Bus feature, tonight, the last First bus leaving Corn Exchange H (Duncan Street) along York Road is the 40 to Seacroft at 2251, even the last First 56 towards Whinmoor leaves Cultural B near bus station approximately 2245!
I fear a spiral of decline unless franchising brings improved frequencies and extended hours of operation.

 

[mattb7tl]

Franchising cannot come soon enough in West Yorkshire.

A view which is increasingly held by most of us even with realistic expectations. It won't solves punctuality. It won't solve reliability. It solves the big issue. The decisions surrounding the commercial network.

On the more locally focused forum the people who were the biggest advocates in keeping the existing system have switched sides. A combination of years of failed and rebranded partnerships and a demonstration of franchising just over the hills.

 

[Pub146g]

Franchising cannot come soon enough in West Yorkshire.
A busy corridor, York Road, Leeds, First West Yorkshire cut daytime frequencies; indeed, currently, except for the 56, First's buses run hourly on evenings, prior to Covid they ran half hourly evenings, they now also finish earlier as well.
Checking Metro's Your Next Bus feature, tonight, the last First bus leaving Corn Exchange H (Duncan Street) along York Road is the 40 to Seacroft at 2251, even the last First 56 towards Whinmoor leaves Cultural B near bus station approximately 2245!
I fear a spiral of decline unless franchising brings improved frequencies and extended hours of operation.

These times aren't correct:-
Last 40 from City Sq to Seacroft leaves 23:34.
Last 56 from Victoria P to Whinmoor leaves 23:12.

I know I'm probably the exception but living in North Leeds I don't really have a problem with service provision from First and I'm able to just get on with my life and get to wherever I'm going.

Even the AI timetables don't bother me because I haven't caught a bus according to a timetable in years; real time is the way forward, know matter where I'm heading I check the real time (Metro Next Bus) along with Bus Times for added reassurance. The mere notion of going out to catch a bus based on what a paper timetable says is ludicrous to me, I want to know what's actually happening "on the ground" as it were.

Franchising is approaching but from at least my point of view I don't know how things would be better. These are of course my personal views, I'm quite aware that folk in other parts of West Yorkshire will disagree but I just wanted to get across that some of us are actually happy with the present set up!

 

[mattb7tl]

Franchising is approaching but from at least my point of view I don't know how things would be better. These are of course my personal views, I'm quite aware that folk in other parts of West Yorkshire will disagree but I just wanted to get across that some of us are actually happy with the present set up!

The primary advantage is a move away from purely demand based planning which has been a failure.

London tends to use demand based planning for peak frequency but off-peak frequency is planned primarily on elasticity and policy. This difference in planning allows them to justify holding frequencies up when raw passenger counts would suggest reductions. The authority already has a draft policy and it applies to your core bus service (pg. 59 & 69)

https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/media/12999/bus-service-improvement-plan-2024.pdf

 

[Pub146g]

The primary advantage is a move away from purely demand based planning which has been a failure.

London tends to use demand based planning for peak frequency but off-peak frequency is planned primarily on elasticity and policy. This difference in planning allows them to justify holding frequencies up when raw passenger counts would suggest reductions. The authority already has a draft policy and it applies to your core bus service (pg. 59 & 69)

https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/media/12999/bus-service-improvement-plan-2024.pdf

Yes I understand all that but I was talking from my own personal viewpoint regarding service level.

For example, some might say with off-peak passenger numbers being lower, the operator should consider the impact of frequency on overall ridership and if services are reduced too much some folk might be put off using the bus altogether. In other words, an operator might choose to maintain off-peak frequencies at similar levels to the peak frequencies in order to encourage people to use buses at quieter times and indeed franchising could well bring this about, although just how long that could play out for on some no-hoper routes I'm not sure.

To provide some context regarding my own situation, I live in North Leeds within a few minutes walk (well, maximum 10) of routes 2,3,3A,7A,7S,36 and collectively I use a combination of any of these depending on time of day and where I'm going. Now, most of these are down to being every hour after 21:00 but because I can use any of these services I'm able to pick whichever is most useful for my time of travel. As per the BSIP frequency targets for 2028 on your document it would be flippin' marvelous for the residents of Shadwell if there was a bus every 15 minutes after 21:00 on the 7S but the truth is how long could that be sustained because I can say right now that it wouldn't encourage extra usage. There are certain suburbs of Leeds which are poor bus territory, routes like 7A/7S have fairly heavy inbound flows on a morning and outbound flows at the usual evening peak period but outside these times passenger numbers can be single figures, at least from the northern (well to do) end. Nearer town you might get a few more on from Potternewton but even then it's usually single figures. None of this is new, nor is it down to First or anybody else, I've lived in this area all my life and remember travelling on Fleetlines in the 70s from Alwoodley on the 34 (now 7A) with next to nobody on.

So really, what I'm saying is that franchising may well bring a better service to folk who are dependent on just one route but coming back to myself, I doubt it would make much difference.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Ilkley - Skipton was core West yorkshire Road Car territory. Used to be Skipton-Tadcaster, then an extension of the Leeds - Ilkley 34
When WYRCC sold part of their business it became a First route, X84
During Covid, First withdrew from the Ilkley-Skipton section. Transdev took it over, and gave it route 64
The thing was complicated in that the railway bridge on Otley Rd was too low for first double deckers, so they routed it up the High Street.
Bus on the 64 is a Volvo B7RLE Wright Eclipse Urban but they interwork with the 62 Keighley - Ilkley to some degree

Not quite. First split X84 in 2020 with 784 covering Otley-Ilkley-Skipton with singles due to the closure of the High Street for social distancing and the need to use the low bridge on Otley Road. When they pulled this Transdev took over and evolved it into today’s 64 under contract to North Yorkshire council. Once again it runs via the Bailey so double deckers are sometimes used.

 

[Statto]

The X84 was every 20 minutes (think it may have been every 15 minutes at one time, or certainly Leeds - Otley section) Leeds - Ilkley & every 60 through to Skipton, the X84 is now its unuseable, at about every 40 minutes (see timetable), feels like an Arriva service, death by a thousand cuts.

Otley is one of those awkward Towns too, like Leigh, which had a railway passing through but was closed in the 60s & now relies on bus services for public transport.

 

[Deerfold]

The X84 was every 20 minutes (think it may have been every 15 minutes at one time, or certainly Leeds - Otley section) Leeds - Ilkley & every 60 through to Skipton, the X84 is now its unuseable, at about every 40 minutes (see timetable), feels like an Arriva service, death by a thousand cuts.

Otley is one of those awkward Towns too, like Leigh, which had a railway passing through but was closed in the 60s & now relies on bus services for public transport.

Leeds to Otley has been every 15 minutes, half hourly to Ilkley, hourly to Skipton (peak extras to/from Addingham going way back with service to/from Skipton from start of service and to last bus but one from Leeds - a friend used to catch the X84 from Otley to Addingham after 2200 when we'd been to the pub in the late 90s) - it had that frequency in the late 90s and pre-Covid - in between it was every 20 minutes to Otley 20/40 to Ilkley. Post Covid they ran nothing better than half hourly. Pre-Covid the last X84 from Ilkley was around 2330 - every few months I'd get an overnight coach to London and could leave home later getting a bus to Ilkley and the X84 to Leeds - though it wasn't the shortest or quickest route, but still gave me an hour to catch the coach.

 

[Statto]

Leeds to Otley has been every 15 minutes, half hourly to Ilkley, hourly to Skipton (peak extras to/from Addingham going way back with service to/from Skipton from start of service and to last bus but one from Leeds - a friend used to catch the X84 from Otley to Addingham after 2200 when we'd been to the pub in the late 90s) - it had that frequency in the late 90s and pre-Covid - in between it was every 20 minutes to Otley 20/40 to Ilkley. Post Covid they ran nothing better than half hourly. Pre-Covid the last X84 from Ilkley was around 2330 - every few months I'd get an overnight coach to London and could leave home later getting a bus to Ilkley and the X84 to Leeds - though it wasn't the shortest or quickest route, but still gave me an hour to catch the coach.

Yeah i remember when National Express moved to the current location alongside the Bus Station, made using the bus easier than the train, any time advantages using the train over the bus, would be equilled out by the time you walked to the bus station from the rail station.

 

[stevieinselby]

The X84 was every 20 minutes (think it may have been every 15 minutes at one time, or certainly Leeds - Otley section) Leeds - Ilkley & every 60 through to Skipton, the X84 is now its unuseable, at about every 40 minutes (see timetable), feels like an Arriva service, death by a thousand cuts.

Otley is one of those awkward Towns too, like Leigh, which had a railway passing through but was closed in the 60s & now relies on bus services for public transport.

The Skipton branch of the X84 was only ever hourly (pre-2008, it was hourly 7 days a week from dawn til midnight, which is an unusually even frequency!). Ilkley to Leeds was always at least 2bph, and Otley to Leeds was always at least 3bph, but the exact patterns varied.

There were times when it was every 15 minutes to Otley, every 30 minutes to Ilkley.
There were times when it was every 20 minutes to Ilkley, no shorts to Otley.
There were times when it was every 20 minutes to Otley, and a 2bph 20/40 service to Ilkley.
Occasionally they would try running 1bph via Pool to satisfy some local councillor or campaign, briefly, until the fuss died down and they could ditch it again.
Sundays were always every 30 minutes to Ilkley.

But agreed, it has never been such a poor service as it is now (at least, not in the last 25 years), with the reduced frequency down to 1.5bph throughout, 1bph on Sunday, no service to Skipton, and AI Slop random times. It isn't even as though they're putting good buses on the route any more either, you're as likely to get a knackeredy old pre-2010 B9 as you are a modern Ultroliner these days.

 

[Ken H]

The Skipton branch of the X84 was only ever hourly (pre-2008, it was hourly 7 days a week from dawn til midnight, which is an unusually even frequency!). Ilkley to Leeds was always at least 2bph, and Otley to Leeds was always at least 3bph, but the exact patterns varied.

There were times when it was every 15 minutes to Otley, every 30 minutes to Ilkley.
There were times when it was every 20 minutes to Ilkley, no shorts to Otley.
There were times when it was every 20 minutes to Otley, and a 2bph 20/40 service to Ilkley.
Occasionally they would try running 1bph via Pool to satisfy some local councillor or campaign, briefly, until the fuss died down and they could ditch it again.
Sundays were always every 30 minutes to Ilkley.

But agreed, it has never been such a poor service as it is now (at least, not in the last 25 years), with the reduced frequency down to 1.5bph throughout, 1bph on Sunday, no service to Skipton, and AI Slop random times. It isn't even as though they're putting good buses on the route any more either, you're as likely to get a knackeredy old pre-2010 B9 as you are a modern Ultroliner these days.

Its a very poor comparison to the 36 to Harrogate/Ripon. Nice new buses and a decent frequency. Pity Blazefield sold some of their core territory to Yprkshire Rider IMHO

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2025 ==

The X84 was every 20 minutes (think it may have been every 15 minutes at one time, or certainly Leeds - Otley section) Leeds - Ilkley & every 60 through to Skipton, the X84 is now its unuseable, at about every 40 minutes (see timetable), feels like an Arriva service, death by a thousand cuts.

Otley is one of those awkward Towns too, like Leigh, which had a railway passing through but was closed in the 60s & now relies on bus services for public transport.

Otley needs 2 Leeds-Otley routes. Via Bramhope, and also via Guiseley or populated areas would be left busless. And remember Leeds -Ilkley via Guiseley and Bradford Ilkley were busy bus routes now gone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Its a very poor comparison to the 36 to Harrogate/Ripon. Nice new buses and a decent frequency. Pity Blazefield sold some of their core territory to Yprkshire Rider IMHO

Blazefield didn't sell their core territory. It was AJS Group who bought and broke up West Yorkshire Road Car. It was the remnants (Malton, Keighley and Harrogate) that were sold to Fearnley and Wilde to form Blazefield.

Otley needs 2 Leeds-Otley routes. Via Bramhope, and also via Guiseley or populated areas would be left busless. And remember Leeds -Ilkley via Guiseley and Bradford Ilkley were busy bus routes now gone.

The introduction of the class 333 and improvements to the Airedale and Wharfedale lines removed a load of trade.

 

[Ken H]

Blazefield didn't sell their core territory. It was AJS Group who bought and broke up West Yorkshire Road Car. It was the remnants (Malton, Keighley and Harrogate) that were sold to Fearnley and Wilde to form Blazefield.

The introduction of the class 333 and improvements to the Airedale and Wharfedale lines removed a load of trade.

Thabks for claifying the breakup of WYRCC.
Your point about the Wharfedale and Airedale lines improvements is right Tough luck on those who needed to travel from stops some way from the stations, tho.

 

[Tetchytyke]

First have been dropping frequencies regularly for several years and losing last buses. Bradford and Halifax have very little leaving after 2200 now, even on corridors that used to have 6 bph during the day and last buses after 2300.

It's improved again more recently but only because of a large injection of cash from the BSIP.

Both Arriva and First have, for many many years, taken all the profit from the daytime service and let the taxpayer fund the evening and Sunday service. That means they have less and less of a cohesive network now.

Transdev took the opposite view, keeping the marginal work in Keighley commercial just to stop interlopers treading on their territory.

It'll be interesting to see how franchising goes. Sadly I have this awful feeling that First and Arriva will do well in the franchising rounds and Transdev will lose out, which won't be a fair reward for Transdev generally behaving properly.