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Fantasy: Major Infrastructure with Zero Chance of being Built

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zwk500

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I'm not an engineer but you'd obviously expand stations, put in expansions of track further up the line, bypasses in strategic locations etc. Like this is supposed to be a speculative thread and a lot of the ideas I've seen here are actually really good.
the engineering constraints are known to be perfectly solveable with enoygh money. Hence Bald Rick asking you about the capacity issue.
To then say it can NEVER happen, just where's our imagination and ambition? Even if what I said was wrong, the point is we need to massively expand our rail capacity, passenger and freight. I wish people instead of saying something can't happen, how about how can we make it happen?
If we need to 'massively' expand capacity it is a perfectly sensible question to ask how much capacity a proposed intervention would add.
I'd suggest Huntingdon to Peterborough would give you more capacity that Digswell. In a sandbox world id do both of them, but Digswell is more about performance in delayed running than plannable capacity
 
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Magdalia

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What dire economic position?
The UK already has public sector debt of about 100% of a year of UK GDP. Furthermore, it pays about 4-5% interest on long term borrowing.

£100bn of infrastructure investment costs the government £4-5bn in annual interest charges, which are part of current spending.

I hate to say this but just about any upgrade/new construction beyond those already in progress could go on this list given the current economic situation and the current political landscape.

No doubt some smaller scale projects will go ahead, but anything beyond that has been killed off by a combination of the HS2 fiasco and economic uncertainty.
In these circumstances this is a realistic assessment of how much capital investment can be financed at current levels of debt and interest rates.

where's our imagination and ambition?
It was here, and look what happened when there was a lot of imagination and ambition not sufficently rooted in engineering and financial reality.

Had our government stuck with the original plan for HS2, it would've transformed the country massively in the long run, probably in ways we can't imagine yet.

I'm not an engineer but you'd obviously expand stations, put in expansions of track further up the line, bypasses in strategic locations etc.
I'm not an engineer either, but I have stood on the end of the platform at Kings Cross, looked at what I see, and tried to work out where it would be possible to add 4 new platforms, and how they might be constructed. I have also stood on the platform at Welwyn North, and in the valley below the Digswell Viaduct, and tried to work out where it would be possible to add 2 new tracks, and how they might be constructed. I have looked at construction sites for the Elizabeth Line and High Speed 2, and I have looked at the land where it is proposed to build East West Rail. Go and stand in those places, and see if it is all still obvious.
 

Railwaysceptic

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What dire economic position?

The economic report used to justify austerity had been found to be flawed.
This is a railway forum, not an economics one. However, the ideas implied in your post - that our country does not face an economic problem and that "austerity" in the way George Osborne mis-used that word is the only way of tackling any such problem - are wrong.
 

Austriantrain

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A lower tunnel for the Cross City would be a very good addition to Birmingham. With a little more vision the route could go through the University itself and stay off the main line until Kings Norton. That would then free up a lot of paths for services from Bristol/Cardiff without impacting capacity through Camp Hill. A Y shape to connect to Tamworth/Lichfield as well as the Wolverhampton/Walsall via Bescott route would be transformational.

The only thing missing then would be a few smaller works on the Coventry line to allow more local services amongst the semi-fasts still heading to London via Rugby.

I would rather go for a second underground level at Curzon Street for classic Long-distance Services, connected to the Camp Hill line, the Walsall line (for W‘hampton), Water Orton and of course Coventry. With Connections to HS2. Still as a Terminal Station though.

And give the entire New Street-centered networt over to frequent S-Bahn-Style and regional express Services.
 

mike57

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I have stood on the end of the platform at Kings Cross
A bit off topic, but this is a somewhat different issue. When the area around King Cross was redeveloped there was room to allow for some expansion, but the redevelopment followed the usual short termist goals, Some space should have been left at the west side of Kings Cross, and the large white building moved to the west by maybe 50-60 yds. This would then have made room from some more platforms in the future. Dont get me wrong, I used Kings Cross most weeks in the late 70s and ealy 80s and it was a dump, and the area immediately outside the station was not nice, anyone who used it back then will know what I mean. So the redevelopment is welcome, but it appears to have been carried out with no thought to future rail expansion. A shame that no one had the common sense to allow a bit of 'wiggle room'.

I have also stood on the platform at Welwyn North, and in the valley below the Digswell Viaduct
I agree this is definitely in the 'too difficult' category. Again if HS2 had progressed as originally planned the relief would have come as a lot of services for Leeds, York, and points North would use HS2. It is going to need a 'by-pass' line, and a quick look at the map says that will be probably 5-7 miles of brand new railway, to be built through (I think) 'green belt', so yes zero chance.
 

stuu

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I have also stood on the platform at Welwyn North, and in the valley below the Digswell Viaduct, and tried to work out where it would be possible to add 2 new tracks, and how they might be constructed. I have looked at construction sites for the Elizabeth Line and High Speed 2, and I have looked at the land where it is proposed to build East West Rail. Go and stand in those places, and see if it is all still obvious.
Physically building them would be straightforward, a parallel viaduct and tunnel don't appear technically difficult. Getting permission and finance to do it is a much bigger problem, it would likely need some expensive houses knocking down
 

AndrewE

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I would rather go for a second underground level at Curzon Street for classic Long-distance Services, connected to the Camp Hill line, the Walsall line (for W‘hampton), Water Orton and of course Coventry. With Connections to HS2. Still as a Terminal Station though.
Why? Done as an "X" it would still allow through trains and work better without the complications of needing so many grade-separated junctions.
And give the entire New Street-centered networt over to frequent S-Bahn-Style and regional express Services.
doesn't this risk making Snow Hill redundant?
 

Austriantrain

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Why? Done as an "X" it would still allow through trains and work better without the complications of needing so many grade-separated junctions.

Yes, but it would require very expensive tunneling under Birmingham City Centre and a lot of investment on the BNS - Kings Norton and BNS - Dudley - W'hampton lines in order to be able to run more frequent local services. With 4 local trains/hour on the Camp Hill line, there should be space for LD traffic, and capacity increases on the Perry Barr line (in order to reach W'hampton) should be cheaper than on the line via Dudley. And you would certainly not need grade separation for everything.

While this thread is for unrealistic projects, we should still try not to spend imaginary money for nothing. ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

doesn't this risk making Snow Hill redundant?

The Snow Hill lines would stay the same.
 
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InTheEastMids

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Sunak made a wise decision in October 2023 to cancel HS2 Phase 2b, with its expensive tunnelled section into Central Manchester
He didn't really cancel it though, did he?
The HS2 Crewe-Manchester Bill is still progressing through Parliament, to enable more-or-less the same thing to be built as NPR or LMR.

I am very dubious that a railway that doesn't make sense for Manchester-London, does make sense for Manchester to Liverpool.
So the fact that political time and effort is still being put into it means the unannounced plan is to use it for Leeds and Manchester to Liverpool and London (which is what the LMR route map sort-of implies). It's also therefore a bit off-topic as there's a non-zero chance it gets built.
 

Austriantrain

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He didn't really cancel it though, did he?
The HS2 Crewe-Manchester Bill is still progressing through Parliament, to enable more-or-less the same thing to be built as NPR or LMR.

In any case, HS2 into Manchester would never have only served three trains an hour from London, but also two from Birmingham und up to 6 on NPR.
 

JKF

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This thread is for highly speculative infrastructure suggestions that could be built with current technology, but would never be. If there is some plausibility then that is great, but certainly the cost-benefit does not need to wipe its face.

I will start with a tunnel from near Nailsea to the East edge of Cardiff such that all mainline services route that way. Electrification would be required and would cover Bristol Temple Meads. The result would be extra services between Bristol and London, some via Parkway and some via Bath. If kept, the Severn Tunnel would be for local services only. An added traffic generator would be buses from Nailsea (where 2tph through the tunnel would call) to Bristol Airport. Appropriate additional tracks would be added approaching Temple Meads using the available formation.

I have not done the maths to compare with the Marches, but Bristol to Manchester trains would be started back at Cardiff to use the tunnel. These, and the Cardiff to London, would be the Nailsea calls.

Any other great ideas out there?
Looks like your line might pass through Clevedon, which could do with a station of its own again, possibly subterranean given you’d be on the dip down to tunnel under the Bristol Channel.
 

simonw

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This thread is titled​

​

Speculative: Major Infrastructure with Zero Chance of being Built​



And yet it is full of people stating "this has zero chance of happening" in responding

do people not read the thread title
 

Uncle Buck

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What about a Glasgow Crossrail running from Shields Road (through which most trains approaching Glasgow from the south, heading into Central, pass) to Cowlairs (fulfilling the same purpose for the north and Queen Street) with intermediate stations at Central and Queen Street to connect to the mainlines, the subterranean Argyle and North Clyde lines, and the Subway (indeed, there might feasibly be just one single hub, as Central and Queen Street are very close anyway).

This would allow a great increase in capacity on the suburban network in western Scotland but would likely be very expensive to construct, particularly due to the gradients involved.
 

Topological

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This thread is titled​

​

Speculative: Major Infrastructure with Zero Chance of being Built​



And yet it is full of people stating "this has zero chance of happening" in responding

do people not read the thread title
Although some people have pushed the "plausible" element of the topic.

The idea is that any suggestions are actually "realistic" as in no rockets from Altnabraec to Sugar Loaf to improve North Scotland-Mid Wales connectivity.
 

simonw

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Although some people have pushed the "plausible" element of the topic.

The idea is that any suggestions are actually "realistic" as in no rockets from Altnabraec to Sugar Loaf to improve North Scotland-Mid Wales connectivity.
True, but two wrongs don't make a right.
 

Clansman

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This thread is for highly speculative infrastructure suggestions that could be built with current technology, but would never be. If there is some plausibility then that is great, but certainly the cost-benefit does not need to wipe its face.

I will start with a tunnel from near Nailsea to the East edge of Cardiff such that all mainline services route that way. Electrification would be required and would cover Bristol Temple Meads. The result would be extra services between Bristol and London, some via Parkway and some via Bath. If kept, the Severn Tunnel would be for local services only. An added traffic generator would be buses from Nailsea (where 2tph through the tunnel would call) to Bristol Airport. Appropriate additional tracks would be added approaching Temple Meads using the available formation.

I have not done the maths to compare with the Marches, but Bristol to Manchester trains would be started back at Cardiff to use the tunnel. These, and the Cardiff to London, would be the Nailsea calls.

Any other great ideas out there?
Realistic in a demand sense but not realistic in the current economic climate: I'll throw in the complete overhaul of the western approach to Haymarket and turning Edinburgh Airport into a Scottish Schipol.

All services upon departing Haymarket (except those obviously veering off towards Slateford), rather than diverging towards South Gyle or Edinburgh Park would instead dive under into a purpose built tunnel towards an underground 6 bi-directional platform Edinburgh Airport station. Thereafter the lines then separate into their respective tunnels for Fife, Falkirk, and Bathgate.

Relay the full western approach to Haymarket. Throw in grade separation, better track alignments, and ETCS all the way through to Waverley: the full nine yards.
 

AndrewE

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Realistic in a demand sense but not realistic in the current economic climate: I'll throw in the complete overhaul of the western approach to Haymarket and turning Edinburgh Airport into a Scottish Schipol.
or in any current climate-aware climate either! We need to reduce air travel by any means possible, and expanding any airport is absolutely incompatible with this.
All services upon departing Haymarket (except those obviously veering off towards Slateford), rather than diverging towards South Gyle or Edinburgh Park would instead dive under into a purpose built tunnel towards an underground 6 bi-directional platform Edinburgh Airport station. Thereafter the lines then separate into their respective tunnels for Fife, Falkirk, and Bathgate.

Relay the full western approach to Haymarket. Throw in grade separation, better track alignments, and ETCS all the way through to Waverley: the full nine yards.
Maybe tunnel some burrowing junctions to make rail operations easier (which is definitely infrastructure with no realistic chance of being built!) We want to see rail made better in lots of ways, but absolutely should not be pandering to air travel demand.
 

HSTEd

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A 1200km maglev line like the one I posted up thread is realistic in the engineering sense (in that such a thing could certainly be built), but not in the political sense!

What kind of realistic do we want?
 

cle

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Bordeaux-style HSR loops for the WCML would be mine.

Preston-Carlisle and Carlisle-Carstairs bypass sections which are non-stop and at top HSR line speed. Possibly Crewe-Preston too, I guess. No parkway stations, no freight, no local services - purely for journey time and for competing with domestic flights (and driving). Could enable the legacy WCML services to add many more calls.

Could be added all in one go, like Bordeaux, or incrementally like Nimes, Montpellier etc...


125mph versions for Newcastle-Edinburgh (tunnel it all like HS2) and yes, the obvious of a Exeter-Plymouth route - could be considered. Make it more German-style. Might render the London-Edinburgh via WCML works moot - given Edinburgh is such a larger market than Glasgow these days.
 

The Ham

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The UK already has public sector debt of about 100% of a year of UK GDP. Furthermore, it pays about 4-5% interest on long term borrowing.

£100bn of infrastructure investment costs the government £4-5bn in annual interest charges, which are part of current spending.

In which case, if there was a project currently under construction arguably you'd want it for as fast as possible so you start earning money back from that investment.

Also, if as a government you spend money which is used to pay staff wages at least some of that money is returned in taxes directly.

The money which is then take home pay, is then spent increasing the money in the economy and paying other people's wages which are then taxed.

They then have take home pay, which they spend, etc.

Anyway, as long as the government is unlikely to default on their loans it's not a significant issue that debt is around 100%. As I said the economic paper on it was found to have been over reliant on part of the data set.

You don't need to be an economist to understand it, the video is 90 seconds and explains it quite well:


There are longer explanations, of you want to check that this is accurate there's plenty of other sources which talk about it.
 

Howardh

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Any heavy or light rail tunnel under central Manchester.
Would have been my suggestion as I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, and maybe never! I'll believe it when I see spades in the ground!

In the spirit of the OP a circle line around Manchester, both an inner one linking all the stations, underground and avoiding the Castlefield Corridor, and a longer circle one linking Wigsn, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, Oldham and Tameside, Stockport and the airport, neither of which will happen, but if it wasn't for that corridor the former could be plausible with most overground and already running. Trains already half circle round from Vic to Picc, just need joining up at Ardwick!
 
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Howardh

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It was joined up at one time, and as you enter Piccadilly from Guide Bridge you can still see the remains of it.
Snio taken from the 1946 OS map courtesy of the National Library of Scotland
View attachment 185623
Thanks, it's a very useful recourse that site! Also a loop there on to the main line southbound could take through trains from the NW "round the back via Victoria" and take some stress off the corridor. Means trains wouldn't call at Piccadilly 13/14 but they would at Victoria and give me my dream of a direct Bolton to London service although the current WCML would need improvements to cope with more services I suppose.

OR linking to HS2 if it ever comes this way!!
 

Magdalia

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Also, if as a government you spend money which is used to pay staff wages at least some of that money is returned in taxes directly.
That does not apply to the debt interest, much of which is paid to overseas investors. Also it does not apply to the raw materials needed for construction, much of which have to be imported. Much of the staff wages disappear out of the UK too, spent on imported consumer goods and foreign holidays.
as long as the government is unlikely to default on their loans it's not a significant issue that debt is around 100%.
The debt being around 100% is significant because of the amount of interest that has to be paid. More outstanding debt means more interest payments. When the government is paying interest on its debt at 4-5% per annum that matters a lot.

As I said the economic paper on it was found to have been over reliant on part of the data set.

This isn't based on what is in economic papers, it is based on the behaviour of the bond markets that lend the money to the UK government and the interest rates that they charge.

It is important to remember that existing government debt is maturing all of the time, and has to be rolled over into new debt, which can only be issued at the interest rates that the bond markets charge now. Any increase in borrowing also requires new debt, which can also only be issued at the interest rates that the bond markets charge now.

The risk isn't default, it is that the government is unable to roll over maturing debt, or issue new debt, except at higher and higher interest rates. In this scenario more and more of government expenditure goes on debt interest leaving less and less for public services and investment.

The Reinhart/Rogoff paper may be discredited but that's irrelevant. It doesn't change the uncomfortable facts about the bond markets now.
 
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mike57

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The alignment is still there, and hasnt been developed, but the junction with the lines out of Piccadilly looks very sharp, almost as if additional tracks have been added since it was lifted. Not sure how useful it would be either because anything using it would have to use the low number platforms at Piccadilly which are already busy.
1754380406150.png
 

Wolfie

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How about we aim to have one in Belfast, Cardiff, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham/Wolverhampton, Bristol/Bath, Southampton/Portsmouth, Newcastle/Sunderland, Leeds/Bradford, Sheffield, Nottingham/Derby then, with the existing systems that cover these areas being expanded as appropriate? Every sizeable town had a tram network before World War I after all!
Interesting that you suggest Brum to Wolvo but not Brum to Coventry which isn't that much further. Doing both would cover "Greater Birmingham", putting the West Midlands in the same language as is applied to Manchester and London.

As a West Midlander myself l know that some will find my terminology "fighting talk" but it helped draw the analogy better.
 

Topological

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The alignment is still there, and hasnt been developed, but the junction with the lines out of Piccadilly looks very sharp, almost as if additional tracks have been added since it was lifted. Not sure how useful it would be either because anything using it would have to use the low number platforms at Piccadilly which are already busy.
View attachment 185634
This has long been a thought of mine, because there is land to add platforms 0, -1, -2 etc at Piccadilly.

However, the last time this came up someone posted a plan of the old junction. The lines did not join the two tracks nearest to the viaduct, instead they crossed by diamonds and joined the next pair. The result would be a lot of crossing moves.

Now, you could create a new curve that went to the East of the previous one to allow for the shallower junction. So it is still a plausible line. It is just the current derelict viaduct is in the wrong place.
 

swt_passenger

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Dedicated freight route from Southampton to Didcot using the former Didcot, Newbury & Southampton Railway trackbed north of Winchester with underpasses at Newbury and Didcot onto line towards Oxford.
Also freight route built to Berne gauge branching off HS1 on the route of the proposed Lower Thames road crossing, going parallel around the M25 and following the M1 to Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal (DIRFT)

​

‘Berne Gauge’ is now pre WW2 historical terminology, it’s ‘UIC GC‘ that these proposals usually go for and that is what has zero chance.
 

zwk500

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‘Berne Gauge’ is now pre WW2 historical terminology, it’s ‘UIC GC‘ that these proposals usually go for and that is what has zero chance.
For piggbyback operations you'd only need UIC-GB+ and that's only about 30cm extra clearance in both directions against W10/12. However if a route in the UK is being built to UIC gauge for UIC-standard trains it'll need every platform to be able to be bypassed.

For a new-build that's not impossible, although rebuilding any line to those standards is a pipe-dream.
 
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