Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[izvor]

In my experience, the only place they are unpopular is on enthuiasts forums.

Really? In mine, it's the regular users that mostly dislike them, for all the above reasons. Plus their unreliability, as many of the frequent Thameslink cancellations are put down to "fault on the train", whether true or not. And the 700 livery is dire, especially next to a Southern or SouthEastern EMU.

I see them as the modern incarnation of the 4-VEPs, i.e. a rail operator's dream and a passenger's nightmare. Acceptable for shifting large numbers over short distances; terrible for, say, Gatwick to Cambridge. Not sure which I'd actually prefer or, more accurately, dislike least!

 

[NSEWonderer]

Regularly using London Bridge ive hardly ever heard much of the regular Thameslink commuters I know still (from 13 years ago), complaining much about the 700s.

Peak time at the old London bridge station back then was not only hectic and extremely packed but then you'd have the 319s in "First Crap Connect"(as they used to say) would arrive in, 8 cars, completely heaving already and then people would try to cram on to the train, most in vain, getting left behind for the next train. Like wise in reverse the early peak was chaotic with the older stock.

319s may have been great on the longer distance runs after St Pancras towards Bedford and East Croydon to Brighton but they were woeful metro trains. The 700s do a much much better job at being a multi role train than the previous stock. They get a lot of moving about, and clean up a lot of platform that used to not get cleared by older stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The whole “length of journey” thing is a bit of a distraction. Even for something like Stevenage to London we are talking about half an hour, longer if on a stopping service. In 2017 such passengers had a high-quality train, now they don’t. At least the current timetable does actually offer some choice, albeit more by coincidence than design.

If there isn’t a decent selection of 387/379 services in December then I for one will be using the car again.

Stevenage to London does still get two LNER services per hour. An Intercity train is very good for a twenty-five minute commute.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage to London does still get two LNER services per hour. An Intercity train is very good for a twenty-five minute commute.

Not in the morning peak though.

 

[Silent]

Yes.. i think im quoted in saying the 700s are nearly perfect for sutton loop/metro services but are wholly inadequate for longer routes. Hopefully in the future they improve things.

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Enough so though to affect the legroom and shoulder width

To me, I don’t travel so much on 700s but they remind me more of classic railway stock than other modern stock with the pocket doors and window placement.

If 319 was released today but with aircon and quieter motors world it be considered inadequate for longer routes?

Maybe class 700 just needs to be like 730/0 more as it also needs to be good for metro/suburban services. I think it probably has better door placement than most adventras for metro services though. I consider this a weakness with overground stock.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? In mine, it's the regular users that mostly dislike them, for all the above reasons. Plus their unreliability, as many of the frequent Thameslink cancellations are put down to "fault on the train", whether true or not. And the 700 livery is dire, especially next to a Southern or SouthEastern EMU.

I see them as the modern incarnation of the 4-VEPs, i.e. a rail operator's dream and a passenger's nightmare. Acceptable for shifting large numbers over short distances; terrible for, say, Gatwick to Cambridge. Not sure which I'd actually prefer or, more accurately, dislike least!

At least you could get a compartment with a VEP, and the seats had some padding. Lack of tables would be an annoyance still though.

That said, I found theme fine from darkest Kent to London.

 

[sh24]

As others have said, great trains on short cross London hops and the huge uplift in capacity has made a real difference. The AC is a godsend during a hot summer instead of baking in a BR era metal sweat box. And no 3-2 seating means a great evil has been abolished.

For anything over 30mins they are pretty indifferent. The stark interiors are unpleasant, but it's the seating that really lets them down. Too hard, too close together, poor legroom, no tables, no coffee holders, no power etc etc. Would you really pick a 700 over a lovely early series 377 from London to Brighton?

 

[Deepgreen]

The external LED displays are indeed absolutely terrible in daylight. I am very hopeful these will be replaced when they get a refresh.

Perhaps, but I am astounded that they were ever passed for use in the first place - they are simply not fit for purpose, and never have been.

 

[Railcar]

The 700s have that 'Siemans Squeal' when they are pulling into a platform, or away from a platform. When two trains are arriving / departing from the St P. Thameslink echo-chamber, the noise is very unpleasant.

 

[zwk500]

The 700s have that 'Siemans Squeal' when they are pulling into a platform, or away from a platform. When two trains are arriving / departing from the St P. Thameslink echo-chamber, the noise is very unpleasant.

Given the geometry in the core, I don't think any manufacturer could have avoided the squeal and given the architectural choices at St Pancras Thameslink that's always going to be horrendous.

 

[Haywain]

The 700s have that 'Siemans Squeal' when they are pulling into a platform, or away from a platform. When two trains are arriving / departing from the St P. Thameslink echo-chamber, the noise is very unpleasant.

That's everything to do with track geometry and virtually nothing to do with the specific trains. 319s, 377s and 387s did the same thing.

 

[Energy]

Maybe class 700 just needs to be like 730/0 more as it also needs to be good for metro/suburban services. I think it probably has better for placement than most adventras for metro services though. I consider this a weakness with overground stock.

The WMR spec 730s are good, but they've also been able to learn from the 700s shortcomings.

Had the 700s been ordered today, it would be interesting whether they'd stick with 20m, or go up to 24m vehicles.

I'm actually quite an ironing board fan proved there is a spacer between them and a proper seat base and support, a tray table is a good bonus.

The seats, with a decent cushion like on Northern, are alright and have some good benefits. The thin back design gives a good amount of leg room.

However, they don't look comfortable. It's surprising how much people gauge comfort by how a seat looks.

The 377/6s were first, @hwl might confirm!

Yep I did the April fools shirt ironing photo on a 377/6 before the first 700 had even been completed.

When were the 377/6s ordered? I wonder if the 700-seat was specified first but the 700 contract took ages to get signed.

 

[Vexed]

Had the 700s been ordered today, it would be interesting whether they'd stick with 20m, or go up to 24m vehicles.

Probably not because of tight curves in the core, narrower carriages, and less doors (unless you go for 3 per carriage like the 345s). The specification required very quick passenger (un)loading times.

 

[izvor]

The 700s have that 'Siemans Squeal' when they are pulling into a platform, or away from a platform. When two trains are arriving / departing from the St P. Thameslink echo-chamber, the noise is very unpleasant.

That's everything to do with track geometry and virtually nothing to do with the specific trains. 319s, 377s and 387s did the same thing.

I beg to differ, I think Railcar was referring to the high-pitched whirring noise that sounds to me like the elastic bands being wound up to move the train. 377s and 387s are far more dignified!

From this thread I'm getting that 700s and their kin are rather "marmite". I'm thankfully only an irregular user, so maybe familiarity breeds contempt, indifference or even a reluctant acceptance?

(PS Have to admit I do prefer them to the VEPs...)

 

[jon0844]

The noise of a 700 starting up is nothing like as bad as the squeal as trains enter St Pancras from the south, so I am entirely convinced that was what was being talked about. You cannot hear anything else when a train comes through the sharp curve!

 

[AM9]

Oh dear, yet another thread complaining about class 700s, - dominated by moans about the seats and lighting. Unlike som here living in the MML corridor out of St Pancras, all trains are type 700s, a mixture of 8 and 12-car, depending normally on the service. So:

seating - very much a personal choice, as a person who has to avoid slouching in seats that have inadequate spinal support, I find the 700s' seat encourages good posture. The thickness of padding may be a little thin for some, it does however work well with the overall seat design.​

lighting - the 700s have enormous windows, especially given the current demands on designed-in crash protection thus with decent consistent lighting, the train doesn't plunge it's passengers into a murky light akin to a sleazy bar when entering the many tunnels en route. The lighting may have a colour temperature too high for some but it does make for very safe movement within the train, particularly for those with less than 20-20 vision.​

traction system noises - the 700s are pretty quiet in use, apart from the magnetostrictive sounds of the motors, which is typical contemporary EMUs with 3 phase motors of much higher power than MK3 and earlier stock's DC traction motors. The inverters are no louder than those on Electrostars when running under 25KV ac and the warble under DC is the same as 'Desiro UK' stock running from and power source and there is virtually no transformer buzz.​

track noise and ride - The complaints about squeal and howl when traversing the curve at the southern end of St Pancras platforms A & B are misplaced in this thread. The squeal is just normal flange contact that is probably slightly less with the 700's SF7000 bogies with their shorter wheelbases, than other stock. The howl is completely unavoidable, - a consequence of the two wheels at either end of a rigid axle travelling slightly different distances on tight curves. Both those noises would be a problem for any train (apart maybe for Talgos where wheels are not on conventional axles in bogies). As for ride, the 700s handle rough track very well, - much better than Electrostars which at 100mph would lurch alarmingly through the bumps around Mill Hill. The short wheelbase bogies seem to ride much better than conventional '8 ft' types. Everything on them seems to be critically damped.​

livery and colour scheme - pure aesthetics persoan; taste, nothing to do with the train design​

​

overall design concept - the design brief was for very high capacity, fast load/unloading, quiet, energy efficient, metro trains that can climb a 1:27 gradient from standstill and slot in paths on a high speed inter-city route running at 100mph. This to be achieved in compliance with all current safet norms. No train can satify all of that and meet every passenger's particular preference in seat, lighting etc.. Class 700s' duties include the busiest and second busiest trains in the UK, the 07:30 Bedford to Three Bridges (9R07) and 07:15 Bedford to Brighton (9T81) with loadings above seat capacity of 84% and 79% respectively between St Albans and St Pancras. This is regularly achieved with dwells of 45 seconds, - that's all that the paths allow betwen MML non-stoppers. Thus the extra wide through gangways and wide fast sliding doors are doing their jobs well.​

 

[yorksrob]

overall design concept - the design brief was for very high capacity, fast load/unloading, quiet, energy efficient, metro trains that can climb a 1:27 gradient from standstill and slot in paths on a high speed inter-city route running at 100mph. This to be achieved in compliance with all current safet norms. No train can satify all of that and meet every passenger's particular preference in seat, lighting etc.. Class 700s' duties include the busiest and second busiest trains in the UK, the 07:30 Bedford to Three Bridges (9R07) and 07:15 Bedford to Brighton (9T81) with loadings above seat capacity of 84% and 79% respectively between St Albans and St Pancras. This is regularly achieved with dwells of 45 seconds, - that's all that the paths allow betwen MML non-stoppers. Thus the extra wide through gangways and wide fast sliding doors are doing their jobs well.[/INDENT]

And therein lies the issue.

The BML is not a metro.

 

[JonathanH]

The BML is not a metro.

It is, however, a line where at least prior to 2020, passengers would be standing from Haywards Heath to London, and there was no capacity for further services to be added. Without speculating, what is the solution, if not the configuration of the 700s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And therein lies the issue.

The BML is not a metro.

The Chiltern Aylesbury Vale line isn't a metro either, but it runs alongside one. Thameslink is a "metro" (S-Bahn), albeit a very long one.

If you don't like 700s use GTR's GatEx branded services instead, but you won't notice much difference bar armrests and the colour of the moquette.

 

[driverd]

And therein lies the issue.

The BML is not a metro.

Absolutely hitting the nail on the head.

It is, however, a line where at least prior to 2020, passengers would be standing from Haywards Heath to London, and there was no capacity for further services to be added. Without speculating, what is the solution, if not the configuration of the 700s?

I think the main benefit is the move from typically 8 car trains to 12, rather than anything specific to the 700 design. A 12 car 700 offers 666 seats against an 8 car 319s of 544, though arguably, 12 cars of 319 would have been a better solution for seats, offering 816 (or even more if 319/0).

Arguably for seats, the 700s are a poor solution for bums on seats, and perhaps the absence of full and standing trains is more a reflection of the change in usage patterns post covid.

The Chiltern Aylesbury Vale line isn't a metro either, but it runs alongside one. Thameslink is a "metro" (S-Bahn), albeit a very long one.

If you don't like 700s use GTR's GatEx branded services instead, but you won't notice much difference bar armrests and the colour of the moquette.

Indeed, and I think theres a good few of us in this thread who do exactly that.

What I'm noticing here is that no one is saying how much they love 700s. Its either "they're suitable" or worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I'm noticing here is that no one is saying how much they love 700s. Its either "they're suitable" or worse.

They're certainly better than the utter crock of the proverbial that is the Class 777. I really struggle to say anything good about those things, aside from the level boarding. I would prefer a 700 to those any day.

I think it's fair to say that, even though the comfort level and ability to deal with crowds is basically the same, the 730/0 has more of a "wow factor" than the 700, with better, warmer lighting and nicer interior colours.

The 700 is functional - very functional - at what it does, but does anyone *love* a metro type train? The PEP derived units were pretty rubbish as built (though many gained an almost intercity style interior later), and 455s are hardly luxury. And 319s - only the Brighton Express /2s really provided a good interior, I wouldn't say any of the other versions were any better than a 700.

 

[Haywain]

What I'm noticing here is that no one is saying how much they love 700s. It’s either "they're suitable" or worse.

I’m not professing love for them but they are considerably better than what went before on the MML side, and at busy times I choose them over an EMR 360.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

They’re extremely dull. Dull livery, dull interiors, they had a sharp plastic smell for a long time and the, you know, seat issue. I remember hearing a conversation with a few people on an SWR train last year who referred to the Thameslink trains as “those horrible grey trains”.

IMO nothing after privatisation can beat the 377/1.

 

[driverd]

The 700 is functional - very functional - at what it does, but does anyone *love* a metro type train? The PEP derived units were pretty rubbish as built (though many gained an almost intercity style interior later), and 455s are hardly luxury. And 319s - only the Brighton Express /2s really provided a good interior, I wouldn't say any of the other versions were any better than a 700.

Fair comment regarding love for metro trains - but its fair to say a good few people have strong feelings about 365s. I think the 333s are also a very strong contender for a well loved and broadly enjoyed metro type train.

Personally my favourite UK trains are 375/377s - I would much rather do London to Edinburgh on the 2+2 vehicles in one of those than an Azuma (though less said about the 3+2 interior the better). I guess thats partly why I'm so salty about the 700s, its such a stark contrast to the 377/5s.

 

[43096]

IMO nothing after privatisation can beat the 377/1.

South Eastern’s 375/3/6/7/8 fleets are better than any 377. The 377s have the horrible astroturf seats.

 

[Magdalia]

What I'm noticing here is that no one is saying how much they love 700s.

Love is a strange word to use for a train.

I travel quite frequently between Cambridge and London, and have now been doing so for more than 50 years. About half of that time was as a commuter.

Class 700s are my first preference from what is currently available on the Cambridge-London route. In the past there have been other trains where I have been more enthusiastic, but that's not my priority now. For me they are the best train for general travel between Cambridge and London since NSE spoilt the MarkII loco hauled stock in the late 1980s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’re extremely dull. Dull livery, dull interiors, they had a sharp plastic smell for a long time and the, you know, seat issue. I remember hearing a conversation with a few people on an SWR train last year who referred to the Thameslink trains as “those horrible grey trains”.

The 701 has a very similar interior to the 700 (apart I think from fake leather headrests). It is a shame they didn't go for a warm, welcoming scheme like the very similar 730/0. The newer London Overground units do this quite well (the older ones look dingy and dark and thus have a bit of an unsafe feel to them at night).

 

[izvor]

The noise of a 700 starting up is nothing like as bad as the squeal as trains enter St Pancras from the south, so I am entirely convinced that was what was being talked about. You cannot hear anything else when a train comes through the sharp curve!

Yes of course I accept that the flange squeal way outperforms the wind-up noise of the 700s at St Pancras Thameslink. In fact I find myself wondering why the platform staff there don't wear ear defenders, it must be appalling for them. Of course if they did, they would not be able to hear the public complaints about the noise...

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Personally my favourite UK trains are 375/377s - I would much rather do London to Edinburgh on the 2+2 vehicles in one of those than an Azuma (though less said about the 3+2 interior the better). I guess thats partly why I'm so salty about the 700s, its such a stark contrast to the 377/5s.

South Eastern’s 375/3/6/7/8 fleets are better than any 377. The 377s have the horrible astroturf seats.

Agree entirely with both of these comments. Nice moquette seats on the SE units. The early 377s are also fine apart from the brushed nylon seats, still comfortable though, a really well-designed saloon interior. It's the later, 5-car jobs that have the ironing board seats, but then they are mostly on suburban diagrams.

As a further aside, why do modern seats have to have such high seat-backs? It's irrelevant to comfort, and just increases the sense of claustrophobia for anyone under 7 foot tall, especially with the airline-style unidirectional seat layout.

 

[Silent]

They’re extremely dull. Dull livery, dull interiors, they had a sharp plastic smell for a long time and the, you know, seat issue. I remember hearing a conversation with a few people on an SWR train last year who referred to the Thameslink trains as “those horrible grey trains”.

IMO nothing after privatisation can beat the 377/1.

Dull but functional. I don’t think the 377/1 would deal well with a metro style video though I don’t use them much.

 

[MikeWM]

And therein lies the issue.

The BML is not a metro.

Exactly. And there's an even stronger case for the 'Cambridge Cruisers' from Ely or Kings Lynn, which run non-stop between Cambridge and Kings Cross, yet in the last couple of years 700s have been increasingly used on these services, especially the Ely terminators.

I rarely go to London on a Saturday now, whereas not so long ago I went most weeks. The 700s are not the only reason for that but they are a factor - if I'm going for pleasure, I don't want to start the day with a miserable and uncomfortable 75 minutes journey, I'll go somewhere else or save my money.