Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[Russel]

I am certain all units will get Wi-Fi and power sockets/tables when they get their refresh.

Is there a refresh planned?

 

[BottleTheWater]

The worst trains are the Class 378s on the London Overground. Followed closely by the Class 345 on the Elizabeth Line.

The Class 700s on the Thameslink are comparatively good.

 

[Class15]

The worst trains are the Class 378s on the London Overground.

As a daily user of these trains I think that is very, very harsh.

 

[BottleTheWater]

As a daily user of these trains I think that is very, very harsh.

They are slow and uncomfortable (using longitude seating for what are relatively long distances) with a garish and utilitarian interior design. Albeit a tad more efficient than the Class 345 on the Elizabeth Line.

 

[yorksrob]

But many of us never saw 365s and only rarely saw Electrostars, so perhaps appreciating another point of view might be helpful.

That doesn't negate that the interiors are unsuitable for the longer routes.

 

[Magdalia]

That doesn't negate that the interiors are unsuitable for the longer routes.

That doesn't matter very much, because, although Thameslink has some long routes, it does not have many long journeys. Nearly all of the journeys are short, for which the class 700 is a very suitable train.

I have looked up the one way flows data for Brighton and Gatwick, specifically for long journeys via Thameslink. These are the biggest numbers:

Gatwick-Cambridge 35k
Gatwick-St Albans 33k
Brighton-Cambridge 27k
Gatwick-Luton Airport 25k
Gatwick-Bedford 24k
Brighton-St Albans 21k

These are a drop in the bucket compared to the much higher numbers of journeys to/from the core stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

I am certain all units will get Wi-Fi and power sockets/tables when they get their refresh.

All of these are obstacles that increase the time that passengers take to alight, which is the most important factor in managing dwell times. I doubt that any of them will happen, apart from flip tables on the remaining class 700/1s that still don't have them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Part of the issue is that what 700s replaced varies from place to place. They may well be an improvement over 319s (especially busy 4-car services), but it’s quite a stretch for anyone to say they’re an improvement over Electrostars or 365s. As well as the clear downgrade in quality, users on these routes have also suffered a very significant fall in performance compared to what they had pre-2018, and I think even the most hard-core Thameslink fanatic would find it difficult to dispute that.

The 700s ride far better than the 377s, and have much more capacity for a given train length (I was routinely left behind in the morning peak in 319/377 time, never since the 700s were in regular service from 2017). In my opinion 700s are more comfortable than the 365s (which I really didn’t like, but accept I’m in a minority). Reliability on the MML and Brighton Line *feels* better than it did pre 2018. I’ll have to look the stats up later. Certainly since 2018 the number of times I have had to make the call hone asking to be picked up from Hatfield has been much less than pre 2018.

 

[frankmoh]

All of these are obstacles that increase the time that passengers take to alight, which is the most important factor in managing dwell times. I doubt that any of them will happen, apart from flip tables on the remaining class 700/1s that still don't have them.

WIFI slows down alighting? What?

Anyways, I'm sure most passengers are smart enough to unplug their items and move the table up so they can all huddle around the door before leaving.

 

[Magdalia]

But many of us never saw 365s and only rarely saw Electrostars, so perhaps appreciating another point of view might be helpful.

The class 365 comparison is relevant because, for most GN travellers, class 700s succeeded class 365s.

I did a lot of travelling on class 365s. In particular I have lots of experience of travelling on crowded class 365s, including commuting when 6 of the top 10 most overcrowded trains on the network were King Cross-Cambridge services formed of class 365s. A bit more recently, also the 4 car afternoon services up from Cambridge stopping at the intermediate stations on the branch.

When crowded, class 365s were awful. A good example was the 1606 Ely-Kings Cross, which was all stations to Stevenage. Most afternoons it would lose 5 minutes or more between Cambridge and Hitchin, because of increased dwell times.

WIFI slows down alighting? What?

Anyways, I'm sure most passengers are smart enough to unplug their items and move the table up so they can all huddle around the door before leaving.

I'm sure that most passengers are not smart enough to disconnect from wifi, unplug their items and move the table up before leaving. I know because I have watched them, so engrossed in whatever they are doing, and not paying any attention to where the train is.

In my opinion 700s are more comfortable than the 365s

That's my opinion too. In particular class 700s have more leg room and seats with high enough headrests for me to actually rest my head.

 

[yorksrob]

That doesn't matter very much, because, although Thameslink has some long routes, it does not have many long journeys. Nearly all of the journeys are short, for which the class 700 is a very suitable train.

I have looked up the one way flows data for Brighton and Gatwick, specifically for long journeys via Thameslink. These are the biggest numbers:

Gatwick-Cambridge 35k
Gatwick-St Albans 33k
Brighton-Cambridge 27k
Gatwick-Luton Airport 25k
Gatwick-Bedford 24k
Brighton-St Albans 21k

These are a drop in the bucket compared to the much higher numbers of journeys to/from the core stations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==


All of these are obstacles that increase the time that passengers take to alight, which is the most important factor in managing dwell times. I doubt that any of them will happen, apart from flip tables on the remaining class 700/1s that still don't have them.

Brighton to London is a long journey.

People are just rolling out excuses for an incorrectly specified train interior.

 

[BottleTheWater]

Brighton to London is a long journey.

People are just rolling out excuses for an incorrectly specified train interior.

For that you have the Gatwick Express.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure that most passengers are not smart enough to disconnect from wifi, unplug their items and move the table up before leaving. I know because I have watched them, so engrossed in whatever they are doing, and not paying any attention to where the train is.

That's passengers for you.

They're who the railway's for, remember.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

For that you have the Gatwick Express.

Not if you're going to London Bridge.

The excuses flow like wine !

 

[BottleTheWater]

That's passengers for you.

They're who the railway's for, remember.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==



Not if you're going to London Bridge.

The excuses flow like wine !

Then you change to a Thameslink at the applicable station. Or what's needed is an intercity service from Brighton to London Charing Cross.

 

[yorksrob]

Then you change to a Thameslink at the applicable station. Or what's needed is an intercity service from Brighton to London Charing Cross.

Or - just put some tables and charging points in - like they should have done in the first place !

 

[BottleTheWater]

Or - just put some tables and charging points in - like they should have done in the first place !

Gatwick Express is a much nicer train though.

 

[43066]

I'm sure that most passengers are not smart enough to disconnect from wifi, unplug their items and move the table up before leaving. I know because I have watched them, so engrossed in whatever they are doing, and not paying any attention to where the train is.

I’m not sure WiFi is that big a deal these days, when many of us have 5g capable phones and unlimited data. Getting it in the core would be useful - are there any plans to do so?

The 700s ride far better than the 377s, and have much more capacity for a given train length (I was routinely left behind in the morning peak in 319/377 time, never since the 700s were in regular service from 2017). In my opinion 700s are more comfortable than the 365s (which I really didn’t like, but accept I’m in a minority). Reliability on the MML and Brighton Line *feels* better than it did pre 2018. I’ll have to look the stats up later. Certainly since 2018 the number of times I have had to make the call hone asking to be picked up from Hatfield has been much less than pre 2018.

The reliability issues seem to be more down to the network being arguably too ambitious and too reliant on the core.

 

[yorksrob]

Gatwick Express is a much nicer train though.

They are good - I agree.

 

[Magdalia]

Brighton to London is a long journey.

No Brighton-London is not a long journey. It is similar to Cambridge-London, which is not a long journey.

People are just rolling out excuses for an incorrectly specified train interior.

No, people who claim that the class 700 was incorrectly specified misunderstand the requirement.

That's passengers for you.

They're who the railway's for, remember.

I do remember, and when travelling, I observe the behaviour of my fellow passengers. On Thameslink most passengers are commuters, and what they want is a reliable service that gets them to and from work, and for Thameslink to deliver that, short dwell times are critical.

For Thameslink commuters, I'd guess about three quarters of them spend the journey on their smartphones, scrolling through WhatsApp messages or watching YouTube videos. Evidently they don't need wifi or power sockets.

 

[43096]

Gatwick Express is a much nicer train though.

It isn’t. Same uncomfortable seats, with added worse ride quality.

 

[frankmoh]

Then you change to a Thameslink at the applicable station. Or what's needed is an intercity service from Brighton to London Charing Cross.

If you don't want to sit on a Class 700, you can always do Charing Cross to London Bridge (all trains call there, 465/466/375/377) and then change platforms to go to Brighton via Southern (also a 377).

 

[Haywain]

for most GN travellers, class 700s succeeded class 365s.

And for MML travellers they didn't. So it is important to recognise that there will be differing views, and one view should not take precedence over another.

I'm sure that most passengers are not smart enough to disconnect from wifi,

Why does anyone need to disconnect from wifi before alighting? Being out of range does the job perfectly well.

No, people who claim that the class 700 was incorrectly specified misunderstand the requirement.

They were badly specified in that seat spacing (sideways) is insufficient and causes people to sit at an angle on the aisle seats, so fails to achieve good occupancy when people prefer to stand. They are badly specified in lacking seat back tables and wifi, and charging points in standard class. Other than that they are very good trains.

 

[bramling]

The 700s ride far better than the 377s, and have much more capacity for a given train length (I was routinely left behind in the morning peak in 319/377 time, never since the 700s were in regular service from 2017). In my opinion 700s are more comfortable than the 365s (which I really didn’t like, but accept I’m in a minority). Reliability on the MML and Brighton Line *feels* better than it did pre 2018. I’ll have to look the stats up later. Certainly since 2018 the number of times I have had to make the call hone asking to be picked up from Hatfield has been much less than pre 2018.

This is all very well, but as a GN user all this is irrelevant to me. Reliability on our side is far far worse than pre-2018 (though I do realise some of this is infrastructure issues on the GN side itself). As for being left behind, having been travelling on the GN side since the 1980s, guess how many times I’ve ever been left behind by 313, 317, 321 or 365s? Zero. So again not relevant for me. I do get the point about rough riding of the Electrostars, however this wasn’t an issue on the 365s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you don't want to sit on a Class 700, you can always do Charing Cross to London Bridge (all trains call there, 465/466/375/377) and then change platforms to go to Brighton via Southern (also a 377).

You don’t get Southern 377 services from London Bridge to Brighton.

 

[frankmoh]

You don’t get Southern 377 services from London Bridge to Brighton.

Silly from me. A 171 then. (this has probably killed my argument)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Silly from me. A 171 then.

That doesn’t run from London Bridge to Brighton either…?
You’d need to change at East Croydon.

 

[frankmoh]

That doesn’t run from London Bridge to Brighton either…?
You’d need to change at East Croydon.

I fear I am losing my marbles here. And also losing the point of this thread.

I see why Bottle wanted a direct service from Charing Cross to Brighton.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is all very well, but as a GN user all this is irrelevant to me. Reliability on our side is far far worse than pre-2018 (though I do realise some of this is infrastructure issues on the GN side itself).

Is that not down to them joining the GN side to the core and South though, meaning the Cambridge and Peterborough services now share the impact of Brighton Main Line, Thameslink core, Kent, Surrey and to some extend Midland Main Line disruption? As opposed to the actual train type?

I fear I am losing my marbles here. And also losing the point of this thread.

I see why Bottle wanted a direct service from Charing Cross to Brighton.

Charing Cross is the terminus of services to East London and Kent, there are plenty of direct trains to Brighton from London Bridge (4tph) and London Victoria (2tph express) instead.

 

[zwk500]

No Brighton-London is not a long journey. It is similar to Cambridge-London, which is not a long journey.

Both are longer journeys than the 700 is really comfortable for (as somebody who has lived, and still has family living, just outside Brighton)

No, people who claim that the class 700 was incorrectly specified misunderstand the requirement.

the 700 was correctly specified but the outer ranges of the thameslink programme are not what they were really intended for (similar to the Crossrail outer reach to Reading)
700s should have included wifi, and USB sockets from the off though, that was a missing spec.

For Thameslink commuters, I'd guess about three quarters of them spend the journey on their smartphones, scrolling through WhatsApp messages or watching YouTube videos. Evidently they don't need wifi or power sockets.

You do need WiFi or phone signal for Internet connectivity, and people adapt to the facilities they have. It doesn't mean the units shouldn't have included at least USB charging.

 

[bramling]

Both are longer journeys than the 700 is really comfortable for (as somebody who has lived, and still has family living, just outside Brighton)

the 700 was correctly specified but the outer ranges of the thameslink programme are not what they were really intended for (similar to the Crossrail outer reach to Reading)
700s should have included wifi, and USB sockets from the off though, that was a missing spec.

You do need WiFi or phone signal for Internet connectivity, and people adapt to the facilities they have. It doesn't mean the units shouldn't have included at least USB charging.

The whole “length of journey” thing is a bit of a distraction. Even for something like Stevenage to London we are talking about half an hour, longer if on a stopping service. In 2017 such passengers had a high-quality train, now they don’t. At least the current timetable does actually offer some choice, albeit more by coincidence than design.

If there isn’t a decent selection of 387/379 services in December then I for one will be using the car again.

 

[uglymonkey]

What are these, the fact that people can see an incident happening in another part of the train and can report it?

On the negative side, lets say the train caught fire if you have a wheelchair user that can't easily be evacuted on a standard unit you could move them to the other set. However the scenario isn't low risk, I can't recall the last fire on an EMU.

No vestibles between coaches, so more space to cram even more people in if necessary.