Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[frankmoh]

The same duct that is on every other Siemens EMU, and quite a few other makes too. But the 700s don‘t have seat supports underneath, nor anything else under the seats that get in the way of stretching your feet out. I certainly welcome that.

Yes you can stretch your legs out just fine, provided the opposite seats don't also have passengers. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes you can stretch your legs out just fine, provided the opposite seats don't also have passengers. Therein lies the problem.

Not every train has all seats occupied all the time. Even on Thameslink.

 

[frankmoh]

Not every train has all seats occupied all the time. Even on Thameslink.

I would rather tilt my legs to one side than have to put up and bent.

 

[Sakuradori]

For sure. I think warmer white would have worked better, but changing the colours inside could still make a big difference.

I rode one of the new 730s a few weeks ago, it's amazing how much of a difference carpet, veneer and warmer lighting can make on an otherwise quite similarly designed train. Much cosier and more pleasant than the 700s I ride daily. They're alright in the sun, but especially late at night, I feel like I'm sat in a hospital ward.

 

[brad465]

By coincidence, this post appeared today on X/Twitter of a passenger complaining about 700s (well they said Thameslink, but by default they were on a 700), with the following:

https://x.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1945030432711463197

On a Thameslink train to Brighton (that started in Cambridge, went thru Central London). It has no wifi, no plug sockets, no USB chargers.
It's 2025 and most passengers have their tickets on their phone.
Yet we pay the highest fares in Europe for this ...

I suspect there are things that are wrong and/or exaggerated in this, but in any situation, perception matters a lot more than reality. If passengers perceive there is a problem, there is a problem, even if reality is otherwise fine. So if this view is representative of that of a number 700 users, then either 700s are genuinely not well designed, or if they are their positives are not being clearly presented to its users.

 

[Brubulus]

How bad is class 700 availability actually? They have always seemed to struggle to an extent with reliability, despite Siemens's reputation. Is this correct, or just a myth and that there are spare units.

 

[frankmoh]

How bad is class 700 availability actually? They have always seemed to struggle to an extent with reliability, despite Siemens's reputation. Is this correct, or just a myth and that there are spare units.

I think it's actually down to Thameslink giving them a bad rep. The whole problem of City Thameslink only having 2 platforms means that anything going wrong into London affects the whole of the network past the south of the river.

From my experiences the other Desiro Cities are perfectly reliable because they don't have to contend with Thameslink's awful route through London.

 

[NSEWonderer]

How bad is class 700 availability actually? They have always seemed to struggle to an extent with reliability, despite Siemens's reputation. Is this correct, or just a myth and that there are spare units.

Ive always thought they 700s have been very reliable since their intial teething issues during introduction with power grid software issues.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't thin the 700s are anywhere nearly as relaible as the specification demanded. Look every year at the golden spanners they are no-where near the top. Also consider that the Cambridge - Maidstone route should have also bieng possible, had this happened the cancellations / swaps would be even greater. I understand the step gradients in the core are trian killers, the 319s were never exactly stunning on the reliability either. If you compare them to other GTR units they have the most failures according to the annual modern railways survey.

Most of the complaints about the 700 are because of the poor interior specification. (the 717s have power and wi-fi on all units because they were not ordered by DfT) If we ran a survey now about the best 158 I am sure we will get very different answers sas they all have different layouts. But they are the same train of course.

 

[zwk500]

ETCS and ATO.

These aren't much help where they aren't fitted, which is the vast majority of the routes! And 377s will presumably be fitted with ETCS if they last long enough to need it.

 

[43074]

I don't thin the 700s are anywhere nearly as relaible as the specification demanded. Look every year at the golden spanners they are no-where near the top. Also consider that the Cambridge - Maidstone route should have also bieng possible, had this happened the cancellations / swaps would be even greater. I understand the step gradients in the core are trian killers, the 319s were never exactly stunning on the reliability either. If you compare them to other GTR units they have the most failures according to the annual modern railways survey.

I suspect one reason for this is the way the diagrams on Thameslink work mean they don't cycle via their main depots anywhere near as much as comparable Desiro City units - nearly half of the 8-car sets start or finish at Bedford Sidings or Cricklewood for instance, which aren't equipped for anything more than light servicing or tanking toilets (when the equipment works!)

Likewise on Peterborough/Horsham for instance with the 12 cars, most of those start or finish at the sidings at Peterborough and Horsham respectively, only a handful go through Three Bridges or Hornsey each day. They are also worked intensively for 20+ hours each day in some cases so even if more of them did cycle through the main depots, there's no guarantee there would actually be time to work on the units!

A bigger proportion of the 717s on the other hand start or finish at Hornsey and feature much higher up the reliability tables, despite quite intense cycles on components such as doors etc making frequent stops. But the overall mileage of each diagram is much lower so it's not quite a direct comparison.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't thin the 700s are anywhere nearly as relaible as the specification demanded.

Correct

I understand the step gradients in the core are trian killers

Not at all. The 319s struggled there in autumn, the 700s do not.

If you compare them to other GTR units they have the most failures according to the annual modern railways survey.

There is an issue there, though. Because most of the rest of the GTR fleet is 3/4/5 cars, 12 car trains made up of combinations of these do much more train mileage than a 12 car 700. Therefore a service affecting failure on a 700 has less mileage to compare to. It’s not quite as simple as that as there are various other factors, but it definitely affects direct comparisons of miles per failure.

 

[SteveHFC]

As someone who has been commuting into London for the past couple of years on Thameslink, I have no major issues with the class 700s. Yes, the seats could be comfier, but I don't find them uncomfortable on my 50 minute commute each way.

 

[driverd]

You clearly aren’t familiar with the Thameslink network - the 700s broadly replaced 319s, which remained in service till the very end.

I'm familiar with the bit I regularly used - ECML and BML, both of which broadly had electrostars (and 365s) replaced by 700s.

On the BML, in my experience, it was actually quite rare to get a 319.

 

[43066]

I'm familiar with the bit I regularly used - ECML and BML, both of which broadly had electrostars (and 365s) replaced by 700s.

On the BML, in my experience, it was actually quite rare to get a 319.

Perhaps the parts of the network you used, at the times you used it, had Electrostars. But the majority of the fleet was 319s, and had been for thirty years, so to suggest that they aren’t a valid comparator to 700s is wide of the mark, to say the least.

 

[Minstral25]

And the 319s are absolutely a false comparison, given 700s broadly replaced 377/5s and 387s.

Along Redhill route they replaced 377/1 and 377/4 on our 4 per hour London Bridge service

You clearly aren’t familiar with the Thameslink network - the 700s broadly replaced 319s, which remained in service till the very end.

As above - we had 2 319's per day to Thameslink, but 4 trains an hour to London Bridge which service the via Redhill Thameslink's replaced.

Yes, they do come about when new trains arrive. When people haven't had a chance to get used to them.

Far better to take a balanced view after some experience.

Would I swap a 700 back for a 319 / 377 / 387?
Absolutely not.
The 700s are more comfortable (in every sense except legroom in some seats), more reliable, less crowded, quicker through the core, and safer.

I'd jump back to a 377 or 387 in a heartbeat - although technically they wouldn't go through the core so it's a no in reality. However, if they refitted the 700's with an interior more in line with 377/387's I'd be very happy.

My opinion that 700's are a brilliant train technically and for the core, but for me the interior makes them awful to travel on as a passenger.

It is purely the lack of spacing between the seats. I haven't found any seats that my legs actually fit to sit in the seat along the train except the non-airline seats, (which often mean my legs are very entwined with the person opposite me) or the first-class sections. Train seats simply should not be that close. I also find the seats too narrow meaning I take up a seat and a bit. Lack of Tables is annoying, as is the boring livery/interior but I can live with that.

Wherever I travel on them it is normally between 40 minutes and an hour - it's just not a nice place to be for that long. Fortunately, I can go to the rear compartment - some long walks but good for my steps!

 

[frankmoh]

I know the Desiros prioritize standing space but the Electrostars already do a good job at that.

 

[43066]

Along Redhill route they replaced 377/1 and 377/4 on our 4 per hour London Bridge service

As above - we had 2 319's per day to Thameslink, but 4 trains an hour to London Bridge which service the via Redhill Thameslink's replaced.

But they were only a stop gap, and the majority of the fleet was still 319s, including parts of the network that saw hardly any Electrostars (Catford loop/Sevenoaks, for example).

It is purely the lack of spacing between the seats. I haven't found any seats that my legs actually fit to sit in the seat along the train except the non-airline seats, (which often mean my legs are very entwined with the person opposite me) or the first-class sections. Train seats simply should not be that close. I also find the seats too narrow meaning I take up a seat and a bit. Lack of Tables is annoying, as is the boring livery/interior but I can live with that.

As someone else who is tall, I’d suggest aiming for the priority seats in the non first class sections - these have better legroom.

 

[Minstral25]

But they were only a stop gap, and the majority of the fleet was still 319s, including parts of the network that saw hardly any Electrostars (Catford loop/Sevenoaks, for example).

Within Thameslink probably - but along our route (Redhill) we had a 6tph Southern 377 service, replaced by 4tph Thameslink 700 and 2tph Southern 377 in 2018.

As someone else who is tall, I’d suggest aiming for the priority seats in the non first class sections - these have better legroom.

Nearly always full though.

 

[fujifilm]

not sure why 700s get so much hate, I used to commute from South Western side to the city on a 455. 700 finally feels like I have stepped into 21st century, and I can’t imagine how the core would have felt in a hot summer’s day on a 319.

 

[43066]

not sure why 700s get so much hate, I used to commute from South Western side to the city on a 455. 700 finally feels like I have stepped into 21st century, and I can’t imagine how the core would have felt in a hot summer’s day on a 319.

Bloody awful - I remember it well. In fact I drove 319s through the core as a trainee.

 

[Haywain]

I can’t imagine how the core would have felt in a hot summer’s day on a 319.

Pretty horrible, as I recall. The class 700 is a big improvement in may respects. Yes, the seating could be better and the DfT could be less tight about wi-fi and tables so that they are standard across the fleet but otherwise reasonably good trains.

 

[jon0844]

Pretty horrible, as I recall. The class 700 is a big improvement in may respects. Yes, the seating could be better and the DfT could be less tight about wi-fi and tables so that they are standard across the fleet but otherwise reasonably good trains.

I am certain all units will get Wi-Fi and power sockets/tables when they get their refresh.

 

[Haywain]

I am certain all units will get Wi-Fi and power sockets/tables when they get their refresh.

I assume that will be after the EMR class 360s have been refurbished.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Bloody awful - I remember it well. In fact I drove 319s through the core as a trainee.

I find it amusing that when the 319's were withdrawn and sent up to Northern, they were an upgrade to what we had at the time which was Pacers and Sprinters

 

[Bald Rick]

I am certain all units will get Wi-Fi and power sockets/tables when they get their refresh.

I’m near certain they won’t!

 

[bramling]

Ive always thought they 700s have been very reliable since their intial teething issues during introduction with power grid software issues.

In-service reliability seems okay. However it seems to be availability that is poor. In other words depots being able to supply the required number of trains each day, and perhaps an element of units failing on prep as well. I suspect the maintenance arrangements are part of this, as there’s routes which don’t see a major depot at all - Luton/Rainham, St Albans/Sutton, East Grinstead. Likewise the Hornsey facility ended up being smaller than originally envisaged.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2025 ==

not sure why 700s get so much hate, I used to commute from South Western side to the city on a 455. 700 finally feels like I have stepped into 21st century, and I can’t imagine how the core would have felt in a hot summer’s day on a 319.

Part of the issue is that what 700s replaced varies from place to place. They may well be an improvement over 319s (especially busy 4-car services), but it’s quite a stretch for anyone to say they’re an improvement over Electrostars or 365s. As well as the clear downgrade in quality, users on these routes have also suffered a very significant fall in performance compared to what they had pre-2018, and I think even the most hard-core Thameslink fanatic would find it difficult to dispute that.

For balance, on GN we do have more capacity now, but at most times especially off-peak what this merely means in practice is lots of empty seats being carried around. Thankfully the recent few GN timetables have seen a mix of 700 and 387 operation, so for most people it’s possible to try and use the 387 services as far as possible. We wait to see what December will bring, as in theory there could be less inter-working, though I’d imagine the KX/Cambridge stopping service will still feature some 387/379 operation given how recent timetables have gone, and to ease pressure on 700 availability.

 

[Haywain]

They may well be an improvement over 319s (especially busy 4-car services), but it’s quite a stretch for anyone to say they’re an improvement over Electrostars or 365s

But many of us never saw 365s and only rarely saw Electrostars, so perhaps appreciating another point of view might be helpful.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But many of us never saw 365s and only rarely saw Electrostars, so perhaps appreciating another point of view might be helpful.

I think 700s have pretty much the same sort of interior as a 365, just extensively modernised. It’s only really the 377s they seem to be a downgrade from, in my opinion.

 

[bramling]

I think 700s have pretty much the same sort of interior as a 365, just extensively modernised. It’s only really the 377s they seem to be a downgrade from, in my opinion.

Depends if you’re comparing with the class 365 in their original form. Notwithstanding the different seats, 365s originally had full carpet including both the floors and up the walls, seat-back tables and half tables, much better seat spacing, less harsh lighting, and no through gangways to propagate noise through the train (and perhaps tip everyone out the end to their deaths during a collision). First class was also substantially different.

The 365s were of course “dumbed down” during their refurbishment, though were still much more pleasant to travel on. In their original form they came across as clean, tidy and gave a feeling of quality. A 700 feels like a hospital waiting room.

To be fair the 387s on GN aren’t bad, though they have some niggles. The hard seating and odd choice for first-class location are examples of this, there’s also the rough ride and tendency for panels to rattle on some units.