Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[Chester025]

Can I ask a question? Why is there all this hassle about photography now when back before say, 2000, it was not seen as a problem? Why have things had to change?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I can give you one useful suggestion:

9/11

 

[Mr Spock]

I can give you one useful suggestion:

9/11

It might have more to do with the London bombings although I do not think that should affect how we carry on, after all when the IRA were carrying out there campaign we had none of these problems. as far as I am concerned it is just self important people throwing their weight about.

I rarely take pictures on stations any more but have moved onto buses, never get any problem with them even when there are police about they just ignore you.

For some reason I ended up at Sandwich yesterday well actually it was to get the bit of track from Minster-Sandwich) and I wandered down the end of the road and there were 2 chaps taking pictures of buses, police everywhere and nothing said. One of them even took a picture of a fire brigade midi type bus and all he got was smiles.

 

[12CSVT]

Can I ask a question? Why is there all this hassle about photography now when back before say, 2000, it was not seen as a problem? Why have things had to change?

I can give you one useful suggestion:

9/11

The first I was aware of any problems taking photos was when a letter appeared in one of the magazines (possibly Railway Magazine) in 1994 or 1995, from somebody who was told he needed permission to take photos at Manchester Victoria, so I think privatisation is a more likely cause.

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand how people can quote the Network Rail guidelines on photography at stations, then conveniently forget about the bit asking photographers to announce their presence to staff, and/or sign in... :roll:

There is no requirement, and they apply to enthusiasts rather than photographers (someone may be a one or the other, neither, or both!)

 

[TicketMan]

There is no requirement, and they apply to enthusiasts rather than photographers (someone may be a one or the other, neither, or both!)

Can't be bothered starting an argument, but surely that's just being picky? :roll:

 

[curly42]

There is no requirement, and they apply to enthusiasts rather than photographers (someone may be a one or the other, neither, or both!)

Point well made.
Far too much fuss made about these guidelines. Some people will sign in,others wont - different strokes for different folks.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Point well made.
Far too much fuss made about these guidelines. Some people will sign in,others wont - different strokes for different folks.

Don't complain if you get chucked out then.

 

[TicketMan]

IIRC, the guidelines were drawn up by ATOC and BTP after numerous complaints from enthusiasts over heavy handed treatment. The whole point being to mitigate such complaints in the future.

In my experience, the only complaints these days seem to stem from people either ignoring the guidelines altogether, or picking the parts that suit them. At the end of the day, is it really any hardship to sign in, or offer to do so when arriving at a station? A process which takes a couple of minutes, tops?

It's all very well carrying copies around (some laminated, no less!), but if you've ignored the request to announce your presence, then any further argument based on the rest of the document is pointless!

At the end of the day, I've no problem with trainspotters/enthusiasts/photographers - I've spent many an hour photographing trains myself in the not too distant past, indeed, if 323s are your thing, you are very welcome to grace my platforms with your presence. However I would be grateful if you came to see me first so I know you are a) harmless and b) not intending to hurl yourself under the next train (unfortunatley suicidal nutcases seem to like the same platform ends as spotters/photters - sad but true).

Some people might think that such rules / guidelines are over the top - but what is two minutes out of your spotting trip to see a member of staff, thus avoiding any unpleasant conversations. And it saves me a walk - I don't relish the thought of a long walk to the far ends of my platforms to find just a harmless photographer instead of the nutcase I was psyching myself up for dealing with...

Again, for those that think it's over the top, consider aviation photography, where there are all sorts of ID badge scemes administered by airport police, indeed, at Paris CDG, photography is banned except to members of the local enthusiasts group who have been vetted by the police. Now THAT is over the top.

Rambly rant over...

 

[curly42]

Don't complain if you get chucked out then.

F.F.S.

For what - waiting for a train ?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Point well made.
Far too much fuss made about these guidelines. Some people will sign in,others wont - different strokes for different folks.

Well what about some of these people that just come up to you after you have been there for two, three or more hours and you have to sign in just as you are about to leave?

If I have to sign in, I will do at the beginning.

I was at Wilmslow and got off the 323 and started filming but as I finished and went to go and get into position, one of the staff stopped me, asked if I had permission, which I hadnt because I had only just got there and directed me over to station supervisor and we didn't have a problem.

But there are some people, even though you know you don't have to sign in, that will come after you have been for a certain amount of time and then try to get you to sign in.

 

[43167]

Because his railcard runs out soon and he cannot reapply because he is over the age limit although he is disabled, mentally not physically and I have told him he can apply for a disabled one and he says he can't.

Basically, he is coming to the stage that I am at which is paying full whack for tickets and he wants to hit places before it runs out; Acton Bridge, Barnetby, Scotland and so on.

This Scottish trip is going to take out both Glasgow stations, both Edinburgh stations, Dalmuir, Pailsley GS, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling, Motherwell, Carlisle and Newcastle and we have got the permission to film and photograph at the Scottish stations

Your brother can get a disabled railcard. My ex-girlfriend is also mentally disabled and she has one.

 

[Bittern]

suicidal nutcases

The only "nutcases" here are people who make idiotic comments like this and prove that they are either blind or completely stupid.

 

[aspierail]

Because his railcard runs out soon and he cannot reapply because he is over the age limit although he is disabled, mentally not physically and I have told him he can apply for a disabled one and he says he can't.

Basically, he is coming to the stage that I am at which is paying full whack for tickets and he wants to hit places before it runs out; Acton Bridge, Barnetby, Scotland and so on.

This Scottish trip is going to take out both Glasgow stations, both Edinburgh stations, Dalmuir, Pailsley GS, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling, Motherwell, Carlisle and Newcastle and we have got the permission to film and photograph at the Scottish stations

Could you please PM me about your brother's disability and does he claim disability living allowance if so what rate is he on for personal care and does he also get mobility rate that way i would know if he is eligible for a disabled persons railcard.

 

[Jobsworth]

Well said Guess. Fortunately, suicides are not a significant factor in my area but I reckon there has been an increase in the London area in the recent past. Recession? Pressures of modern life? Relationship breakdowns? Who knows?

But to those who dismiss suicides as an irrelevant diversion, would you be happy to wander around the site picking up body parts or go and tell a relative what has happend or try and do temporary repairs to rolling stock which has been disabled but still covered in gore.

Thought not!

 

[passmore]

IIRC, the guidelines were drawn up by ATOC and BTP after numerous complaints from enthusiasts over heavy handed treatment. The whole point being to mitigate such complaints in the future.

In my experience, the only complaints these days seem to stem from people either ignoring the guidelines altogether, or picking the parts that suit them. At the end of the day, is it really any hardship to sign in, or offer to do so when arriving at a station? A process which takes a couple of minutes, tops?

It's all very well carrying copies around (some laminated, no less!), but if you've ignored the request to announce your presence, then any further argument based on the rest of the document is pointless!

At the end of the day, I've no problem with trainspotters/enthusiasts/photographers - I've spent many an hour photographing trains myself in the not too distant past, indeed, if 323s are your thing, you are very welcome to grace my platforms with your presence. However I would be grateful if you came to see me first so I know you are a) harmless and b) not intending to hurl yourself under the next train (unfortunatley suicidal nutcases seem to like the same platform ends as spotters/photters - sad but true).

Some people might think that such rules / guidelines are over the top - but what is two minutes out of your spotting trip to see a member of staff, thus avoiding any unpleasant conversations. And it saves me a walk - I don't relish the thought of a long walk to the far ends of my platforms to find just a harmless photographer instead of the nutcase I was psyching myself up for dealing with...

Again, for those that think it's over the top, consider aviation photography, where there are all sorts of ID badge scemes administered by airport police, indeed, at Paris CDG, photography is banned except to members of the local enthusiasts group who have been vetted by the police. Now THAT is over the top.

Rambly rant over...

The trouble with that argument is that it generalises all photographers on stations as people who ignore the guidelines, and then duly complain about the heavy-handidness of said guidelines. If they were drawn up based on individual photographer experiences, it would seem illogical to say that every photographer ignores them.
I have some works colleagues who I keep in touch with who regularly go to stations such as Westbury or Crewe to film or to take pictures. I for one am not interested in that sort of thing but I like to hear about their experiences and their tales of anything unusual that was seen on that day. They weren't even aware of any guidelines concerning taking photos at stations! It's only recently that I told them about this forum and the guidelines that they were quite shocked, largely on the basis that having read the guidelines, they were in the same mindset as me: the rules do not factor in basic common sense. They also agreed with me regarding the issue of 'permission'. If a regular commuter is allowed in and out of a station and behaves appropriately, why is a photographer 'singled out' on the basis that they are not travelling and are just an 'entity' at a station? If you draw attention to yourself by standing over the yellow line or 'flailing' or whatever it's called, then, quite frankly, you deserve any appropriate punishment from the station staff. If, however, you are civil to other passengers and to station staff, you move when you are told to, you stand behind the yellow line tripod and all, and you don't behave like a general idiot, then there really is no problem.
The problem seems to me those that enforce these guidelines rather than the guidelines itself, whilst they are draconian in the way they have been drafted up, that doesn't mean they need to be draconian in execution.

 

[Bevan Price]

There have always been a few jobsworth types who objected to photographers. I encountered one at London Waterloo when taking a photo of the pacific hauling the train I was about to board ..... in about 1964.

 

[electra27000]

Can I ask a question? Why is there all this hassle about photography now when back before say, 2000, it was not seen as a problem? Why have things had to change?

Not so. I was thrown off Hither Green by a member of Connex South Eastern station staff for simply wanting to take photos on the 29th June 1999, after having made an effort to make sure my presence there was known to staff. A complaint letter was sent to then MD, Geoff Harrison-Mee, who side stepped it and left it to the local Group Station Manager to answer. The GSM took the side of the member of staff concerned. I later had a letter published in Rail Express about the incident.

 

[Chester025]

Yes, there were incidents even then, but this kind of thing is getting more common.

 

[pic1973]

Hello, everyone, this is my first post.
As I'm not British, sorry for my poor English...

I had a problem on the Clapham Junction station yesterday.
Once I entered the station I told a member of staffs that I wanted to take photos of trains, and he asked me to go to the platform 10 where the duty manager was, so I did. Then I talked to the duty manager but he said that I needed a permission from the duty manager of Waterloo, so I showed him a copy of the guidelines which I'd printed before and told I didn't have to. However then he said that I had to go there and get safety jackets like staffs wore, so I showed him the guidelines again and tried to explain to him that I shouldn't wear such thing, but he said the guidelines didn't apply on the station.
Then I realised that it was the waste of time to try to make him understand the actual rules so I left the station and enjoyed photographing at another place.

But however I see lots of photos taken on that station on the internet or magazines, and I wonder how those people could take photos there. If you've photographed there before, could you please tell me about your experiences, such as how you could and whether you had any problems?

Thank you very much for reading my poor writing.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Hello, everyone, this is my first post.
As I'm not British, sorry for my poor English...

I had a problem on the Clapham Junction station yesterday.
Once I entered the station I told a member of staffs that I wanted to take photos of trains, and he asked me to go to the platform 10 where the duty manager was, so I did. Then I talked to the duty manager but he said that I needed a permission from the duty manager of Waterloo, so I showed him a copy of the guidelines which I'd printed before and told I didn't have to. However then he said that I had to go there and get safety jackets like staffs wore, so I showed him the guidelines again and tried to explain to him that I shouldn't wear such thing, but he said the guidelines didn't apply on the station.
Then I realised that it was the waste of time to try to make him understand the actual rules so I left the station and enjoyed photographing at another place.

But however I see lots of photos taken on that station on the internet or magazines, and I wonder how those people could take photos there. If you've photographed there before, could you please tell me about your experiences, such as how you could and whether you had any problems?

Thank you very much for reading my poor writing.

Well I had photographed and filmed there before and no one came close to even bothering me.

I don't know what this person thought he was trying to prove after you had showed him the guidelines but we had a similar experience at Barking. The person told us to go back to get permission at Fenchurch Street so we went and they told us, we didn't need permission from them and we could spot there with pleasure

 

[alexdodds]

Went to London yesterday and I can tell you that Liverpool Street is more enthusiast friendly than it used to be.

Here is how it went.

I went to station reception next P10. asked the lady permission to photo/video. I had to show ID so I used my citizen card and that was ok. I given a form titled filming and photography at Liverpool Street which I had to read and then sign.

I was then given a safety briefing e.g. what to do when the fire alarm goes off and to been an extra pair of eyes as well as ears in terms of security. I signed that and then I had my photo taken on webcam and printed on a badge and printed and then I was on my way.

Spent an hour and wasn't challenged. I know its a bit extreme but that is understandable for a station such as that and Network Rail were very and professional.

I was also asked for ID at Cannon Street but didnt have to sign in.

Infact I didnt have to sign in at Fenchurch Street, King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston. At Euston and St Pancras I am now on the visitors database.

 

[electra27000]

Went to London yesterday and I can tell you that Liverpool Street is more enthusiast friendly than it used to be.

Here is how it went.

I went to station reception next P10. asked the lady permission to photo/video. I had to show ID so I used my citizen card and that was ok. I given a form titled filming and photography at Liverpool Street which I had to read and then sign.

I was then given a safety briefing e.g. what to do when the fire alarm goes off and to been an extra pair of eyes as well as ears in terms of security. I signed that and then I had my photo taken on webcam and printed on a badge and printed and then I was on my way.

Spent an hour and wasn't challenged. I know its a bit extreme but that is understandable for a station such as that and Network Rail were very and professional.

Sounds way better than one of my previous visits, where a friend and myself was threatened with the BTP if we didn't leave the station - this was 2004, though...

 

[nedchester]

Went to London yesterday and I can tell you that Liverpool Street is more enthusiast friendly than it used to be.

Here is how it went.

I went to station reception next P10. asked the lady permission to photo/video. I had to show ID so I used my citizen card and that was ok. I given a form titled filming and photography at Liverpool Street which I had to read and then sign.

I was then given a safety briefing e.g. what to do when the fire alarm goes off and to been an extra pair of eyes as well as ears in terms of security. I signed that and then I had my photo taken on webcam and printed on a badge and printed and then I was on my way.

Spent an hour and wasn't challenged. I know its a bit extreme but that is understandable for a station such as that and Network Rail were very and professional.

I was also asked for ID at Cannon Street but didnt have to sign in.

Infact I didnt have to sign in at Fenchurch Street, King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston. At Euston and St Pancras I am now on the visitors database.

Do passengers get briefed on what to do in the event of a fire alarm etc?

What a load of red tape just to take some pictures on a railway station. Proof that the UK has gone bonkers. Even the guidelines do not require you to sign in but merely let the staff know of your presence. What's all the nonsense about you having your photo taken?

 

[jon0844]

Photos taken, ID, signing in multiple times and even at different locations? That does seem rather OTT for someone to stay within the public areas of a station and take photos.

And now staff say the same to commuters waiting for a train who happen to take a photo with a cameraphone, I do feel tempted to say the world has gone mad - but will resist as I hate people who say that!

 

[nedchester]

Photos taken, ID, signing in multiple times and even at different locations? That does seem rather OTT for someone to stay within the public areas of a station and take photos.

And now staff say the same to commuters waiting for a train who happen to take a photo with a cameraphone, I do feel tempted to say the world has gone mad - but will resist as I hate people who say that!

Well I said it had gone bonkers!!!

The thing is nearly every single person on a railway station has a camera in the form of a camera phone. Some take some very good pictures Cameras have never been so prolific. People use them all the time. However, the hapless trainspotter is singled out for this treatment? Time for those who make the decisions to think long and hard as to WHY they make people sign in etc. To me there is no logical reason for it.

 

[Mr Spock]

Went to London yesterday and I can tell you that Liverpool Street is more enthusiast friendly than it used to be.

Here is how it went.

I went to station reception next P10. asked the lady permission to photo/video. I had to show ID so I used my citizen card and that was ok. I given a form titled filming and photography at Liverpool Street which I had to read and then sign.

I was then given a safety briefing e.g. what to do when the fire alarm goes off and to been an extra pair of eyes as well as ears in terms of security. I signed that and then I had my photo taken on webcam and printed on a badge and printed and then I was on my way.

Spent an hour and wasn't challenged. I know its a bit extreme but that is understandable for a station such as that and Network Rail were very and professional.

I was also asked for ID at Cannon Street but didnt have to sign in.

Infact I didnt have to sign in at Fenchurch Street, King's Cross, St Pancras and Euston. At Euston and St Pancras I am now on the visitors database.

There is no chance of me giving personal info, having my photo taken and ending up on a stations database just so that I can walk on a platform to take pictures of trains. Personally think it is outrageous.

 

[jon0844]

I accept that it's courtious to let someone know what you're doing if you're going to be standing around for some time taking photos of trains, but I don't appreciate being asked what I'm up to when I am waiting 10 minutes for a connecting train, it's bright and sunny so I walk up and down the platform (not passing the 'do not pass' signs) to kill time.

If I then decide to take a photo of something random, I don't expect to be told I should have signed in.. and then presumably sign out before I get on the train I want (perhaps missing it). If you don't sign out, that really isn't very good for safety management. In the event of an evacuation, they presumably have to look for all the people who didn't sign in - i.e. the general public - anyway.

If I was signing in to get a visitors badge, I'd expect to carry one because I'm getting access to a restricted area for staff. I wouldn't expect to have a visitors badge to merely stand on a platform. That's presumably why the guidelines don't say you must sign in, provide ID, have a photo taken, get a pass and then sign out. You simply let someone know what you're doing so they don't worry.

If they then saw you wandering around in an area that is off limits, THEN they can deal with you however they see fit (throw you out, call BTP etc).

To me, some staff just like to show they're so powerful. That's why they can pretend it's about security and risk, so you think that they're doing their bit to help keep the nation secure. In reality, they're not actually looking for suspicious activity - and the people they harass more likely could.

The stupidity is that at Finsbury Park, where I was told to sign-in for taking a photo of the gateline while waiting to change train, they happily let a train continue when someone had come off, in a panic, and said to staff that a lady was possibly carrying a bomb (clutching a rucksack and allegedly praying over and over). Despite this person telling more than one member of staff, they dispatched it and - as he continued to say what he saw - opted to get BTP to meet the train at King's Cross.

BTP did then attend, located the woman and it was shown to be a false alarm - but for Goodness sake... one minute they're going after people taking a photo and talking up the 'heightened security risk' and the next they're allowing a train to head into King's Cross with someone on board who could have been planning to blow the train up! Oh yes, the staff are REALLY taking security seriously, not.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/mobile/new...alert_on_first_capital_connect_train_1_928312

 

[nedchester]

I accept that it's courtious to let someone know what you're doing if you're going to be standing around for some time taking photos of trains, but I don't appreciate being asked what I'm up to when I am waiting 10 minutes for a connecting train, it's bright and sunny so I walk up and down the platform (not passing the 'do not pass' signs) to kill time.

If I then decide to take a photo of something random, I don't expect to be told I should have signed in.. and then presumably sign out before I get on the train I want (perhaps missing it). If you don't sign out, that really isn't very good for safety management. In the event of an evacuation, they presumably have to look for all the people who didn't sign in - i.e. the general public - anyway.

If I was signing in to get a visitors badge, I'd expect to carry one because I'm getting access to a restricted area for staff. I wouldn't expect to have a visitors badge to merely stand on a platform. That's presumably why the guidelines don't say you must sign in, provide ID, have a photo taken, get a pass and then sign out. You simply let someone know what you're doing so they don't worry.

If they then saw you wandering around in an area that is off limits, THEN they can deal with you however they see fit (throw you out, call BTP etc).

To me, some staff just like to show they're so powerful. That's why they can pretend it's about security and risk, so you think that they're doing their bit to help keep the nation secure. In reality, they're not actually looking for suspicious activity - and the people they harass more likely could.

The stupidity is that at Finsbury Park, where I was told to sign-in for taking a photo of the gateline while waiting to change train, they happily let a train continue when someone had come off, in a panic, and said to staff that a lady was possibly carrying a bomb (clutching a rucksack and allegedly praying over and over). Despite this person telling more than one member of staff, they dispatched it and - as he continued to say what he saw - opted to get BTP to meet the train at King's Cross.

BTP did then attend, located the woman and it was shown to be a false alarm - but for Goodness sake... one minute they're going after people taking a photo and talking up the 'heightened security risk' and the next they're allowing a train to head into King's Cross with someone on board who could have been planning to blow the train up! Oh yes, the staff are REALLY taking security seriously, not.


http://www.whtimes.co.uk/mobile/new...alert_on_first_capital_connect_train_1_928312

Indeed. It's all about pretend safety thought up by idiots!

 

[185]

I was mobbed by Railtrack staff in 1998 for taking photographs of their flooded footbridge at Man Piccadilly. The 2 inches deep water was running down in gallons on to the 25kv overheads and was becoming mighty flashy. Customers had reported it, but Railtrack had fobbed them off.

Railtrack staff said I did not have permission, despite being sent by my employer GMPTE and told not to announce myself. They also said the 25kv was perfectly safe and the PTE was making something out of nothing.

After the bemused police were called, and things started getting a little heated, their big boss steeped in and ended up apologising to the boss of the PTE. The bridge ended up closed off within minutes