Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[ralphchadkirk]

No chance that a person intent on bringing down a plane could qualify as a pilot and get a job flying a commercial plane then ?

Yes, but there's not point searching them for prohibited items as they can just fly the plane into something.

 

[Jobsworth]

So all these airline pilots etc. who have to go through security. I suppose none of them has actually tried to board and fly a plane having had a skinful the night before and still been a bit unsteady on their feet or reeking of falling down liquid?

 

[jon0844]

I would have to agree that staff should also clear security. I have in fact been through the staff entrance at Gatwick before and although there's more of a friendly 'hello mate' atmosphere, they're still checked out just the same.

Given the scope for a rogue member of staff, or indeed someone being bribed to carry something, you have to still assume that any 'respectable' member of staff could be a problem. What's more, if it's known they have to be checked like normal, nobody would attempt to get them to carry something for them.

 

[Old Timer]

I would have to agree that staff should also clear security. I have in fact been through the staff entrance at Gatwick before and although there's more of a friendly 'hello mate' atmosphere, they're still checked out just the same.

Given the scope for a rogue member of staff, or indeed someone being bribed to carry something, you have to still assume that any 'respectable' member of staff could be a problem. What's more, if it's known they have to be checked like normal, nobody would attempt to get them to carry something for them.

Jon, that does rather infer that flight crew are not responsible, and assumes that cabin crew for example would be happy to smuggle on-board something that would likely lead to their deaths ?

Any member of the flight deck crew could simply just put the plane into an unrecoverable spin and "goodnight vienna" at any time they wished.

 

[jon0844]

I know, but imagine someone 'getting to' a member of cabin crew (even a pilot) to get something through security to pass to someone else, perhaps for an entirely different flight.

Imagine the pilot was told his wife was being held hostage unless he took something through. It would be feasible, unless it was known that he'd be scanned.

I know this is far fetched, but it IS possible and not intentionally accusing pilots of being irresponsible. And obviously if a pilot wanted to crash a plane, he could very easily!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The irony of searching the flight deck crew for prohibited articles with which they could bring down the plane is clearly lost on everyone from the very top to the occasional Neanderthal one finds occupying these posts.

Is it only me and the flight crew who find the whole scenario absurd ?

In this case I think it is simply a case of it being impossible to discern where the line should be. If we shouldn't bother searching the pilots, what about the senior cabin crew with access to the flight deck as the same would apply to them. Then what about the whole cabin crew. What about other airline staff who will not be getting on the planes. What about pilots off-duty who are flying passenger...?

If you try and split certain people up from others to decide who should get searched and who shouldn't then it just makes it a lot harder for security staff to do their job properly and in turn makes the whole thing pointless.

 

[Old Timer]

In this case I think it is simply a case of it being impossible to discern where the line should be. If we shouldn't bother searching the pilots, what about the senior cabin crew with access to the flight deck as the same would apply to them. Then what about the whole cabin crew. What about other airline staff who will not be getting on the planes. What about pilots off-duty who are flying passenger...?

If you try and split certain people up from others to decide who should get searched and who shouldn't then it just makes it a lot harder for security staff to do their job properly and in turn makes the whole thing pointless.

Tell me exactly what you think is achieved by searching aircrew who will fly the plane ?

How does searching the flight deck crew stop them pointing the plane at the ground ?

You really are just blindly following the thought pattern that the last Government wanted people to.

 

[jon0844]

I normally agree with you, but I do think security can't have exceptions based on trust alone.

Imagine if I could obtain a uniform and then bribe someone to give me a fake security pass? Or my earlier example. That's why everyone has to be treated the same way.

And, believe me, I was no fan of the last Government and their attempts to have a new law for everything (which was pointless, as they forgot they needed to enforce laws too and have a justice system that worked!).

 

[TheJRB]

We went to Bromley South today and everything was fine until after we had returned from Beckenham Junction. We were back on platforms 3 and 4 for our train back to Ashford and I was just about to film a Networker departing when a member of staff walked up to me, half getting in the way, and asked me if I had 'permission'. I said "Sorry, no." and put my lens cap back on. I also laughed thinking he was kidding, but alas he wasn't and he walked away looking miserable. I'm not sure I would have stopped so quickly if we weren't about five minutes away from leaving though. :-x

I suppose we're just spoilt with Ashford International, where the staff are almost always friendly and helpful.

 

[Old Timer]

I normally agree with you, but I do think security can't have exceptions based on trust alone.

Imagine if I could obtain a uniform and then bribe someone to give me a fake security pass? Or my earlier example. That's why everyone has to be treated the same way.

And, believe me, I was no fan of the last Government and their attempts to have a new law for everything (which was pointless, as they forgot they needed to enforce laws too and have a justice system that worked!).

OK but what you have maybe overlooked is that the crew centres are small and airline staff like train crew are known to one another. It would be impossible for an imposter to get onto the a/c because (a) he would be surplus to the crew, (b) he would be unknown to them, (c) the crew meet together beforehand for the pre-flight briefing, and if on a sector away from home, will have started out as a crew together in the first place.

You also overlook the fact that the security staff do not search one another as they move about, so it would be easier to go down that roue as that way one would not be tied to a particular airline.

It is also recognised within the Industry that flight crew is not where the key risks are. They are elsewhere in the system.

That is why I say it is crazy to search the operating crew at the gate, or through security, with everyone else.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Can someone tell me if the rules have changed at Birmingham New Street?

I always knew, from a Network rail employee who we know there, that you don't need a pass to take photos but you did need a pass to take vids there.

I got there Thursday, waiting for my train home when a certain loco from a certain company came in and I grabbed the picture when a Network Rail employee came up and, I wouldn't say bereated me but certainly gave me a piece of their mind, telling me angrily that I needed a pass for photos now.

To avoid confrontation, I ignored him and walked away but has the rules changed there or what?

 

[jon0844]

...That is why I say it is crazy to search the operating crew at the gate, or through security, with everyone else.

But what if the person IS known to colleagues (the person who is later described as someone 'who seemed so nice and honest')?

What if someone gets fake ID merely to clear security then give what they've taken through to a regular passenger who was thoroughly checked?

I get what you're saying, but I am thinking of ways to get around security if there are any people who are somehow not searched because of their ID or uniform.

And you highlighted a good point about security guards themselves!

 

[curly42]

Can someone tell me if the rules have changed at Birmingham New Street?

I always knew, from a Network rail employee who we know there, that you don't need a pass to take photos but you did need a pass to take vids there.

I got there Thursday, waiting for my train home when a certain loco from a certain company came in and I grabbed the picture when a Network Rail employee came up and, I wouldn't say bereated me but certainly gave me a piece of their mind, telling me angrily that I needed a pass for photos now.

To avoid confrontation, I ignored him and walked away but has the rules changed there or what?

I'm not aware of any "rules" at New Street. There are guidelines,but they are just that,not "rules".
I've never heard of the video ruling either - maybe someone can enlighten us on that point ?
I treat New Street the same as I treat other stations - I turn up,take pictures,stay within any boundries,avoid busy places,and generally keep a low profile.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I'm not aware of any "rules" at New Street. There are guidelines,but they are just that,not "rules".
I've never heard of the video ruling either - maybe someone can enlighten us on that point ?
I treat New Street the same as I treat other stations - I turn up,take pictures,stay within any boundries,avoid busy places,and generally keep a low profile.

When we first went to New Street, one of the Virgin staff, along with a Network Rail employee came up to us and asked what we were doing. We informed them and while they were happy that we were not breaking any guidelines on station practice, they did inform us that we did have to sign in to do videography while photography was fine by them, along as we didn't use the flash.

And my apologies, I meant guidlines and not rules

 

[Old Timer]

But what if the person IS known to colleagues (the person who is later described as someone 'who seemed so nice and honest')?

What if someone gets fake ID merely to clear security then give what they've taken through to a regular passenger who was thoroughly checked?

I get what you're saying, but I am thinking of ways to get around security if there are any people who are somehow not searched because of their ID or uniform.

And you highlighted a good point about security guards themselves!

A member of aircrew is going to have a long history with an airline. If that person suddenly deciedes to fly the a/c into the ground then no amount of screening, secondary screening, checkings, security clearances, etc will stop it.

It is highly unlikely and probably pretty much unlikely that anyone could obtain a false security pass for an unauthorised person, certainly I doubt very much that any flight crew would ever do such a thing as after all it would be their lives they were placing at risk. That said the aircrew only go to the a/c as a crew, and very rarely alone, so again such a pass would not help because the person would be an extra bod so to speak.

Our problem is too much of the wrong type of security.

We do not profile against risk - because the freedom for a terrorist to kill me far outranks my right to life in the minds of the "liberals". When the problem was Irish terrorists, only Irish people were targetted, no-one targetted West Indians, or Africans or Asians did they, and I do not recall the liberals having a problem with that, but now that non-white terrorism is here suddenly it is wrong :roll:

We use the wrong type of people to undertake that "security" - generally those at the bottom of the wage scales, and lets face it, "security" is an Industry that only those who are really desperate go into.

When you level the playing field so to speak, then there will always be lapses because of the sheer boredom, and loss of concentration.

The government has access to huge amounts of information on every single one of us, ranging from what shampoo we use to where we drink, what we drink, where and when we shop, what we buy, our interests, etc, etc.

I know that I am on a database (probably several) because of the amount of travelling I do. I have no doubt that various authorities know as much about me as I do !

 

[LE Greys]

A member of aircrew is going to have a long history with an airline. If that person suddenly deciedes to fly the a/c into the ground then no amount of screening, secondary screening, checkings, security clearances, etc will stop it.

In theory, anyone can flip. If someone files a false flightplan, then crashes their empty aircraft into whatever they hate most in the world, then not much can stop them.

It is highly unlikely and probably pretty much unlikely that anyone could obtain a false security pass for an unauthorised person, certainly I doubt very much that any flight crew would ever do such a thing as after all it would be their lives they were placing at risk. That said the aircrew only go to the a/c as a crew, and very rarely alone, so again such a pass would not help because the person would be an extra bod so to speak.

Theoretically, there is nothing to stop a state-sponsored agency or a highly-sophisticated operation doing this. However, it would be virtually impossible to forge the records required to back this up. I've also often wondered whether it would not be possible to smuggle something in on an incoming flight from a country with less-rigorous security (or a state-sponsor) and bypass British security altogether. People are not screened on arrival.

A passenger armed with little more than a brandy bottle, a shirt sleeve and a box of matches could also raise merry hell on an aircraft. All of these are obtainable/permitted airside, yet I don't know of anyone banning the sale of duty-free alcohol.

Our problem is too much of the wrong type of security.

We do not profile against risk - because the freedom for a terrorist to kill me far outranks my right to life in the minds of the "liberals". When the problem was Irish terrorists, only Irish people were targetted, no-one targetted West Indians, or Africans or Asians did they, and I do not recall the liberals having a problem with that, but now that non-white terrorism is here suddenly it is wrong :roll:

We use the wrong type of people to undertake that "security" - generally those at the bottom of the wage scales, and lets face it, "security" is an Industry that only those who are really desperate go into.

When you level the playing field so to speak, then there will always be lapses because of the sheer boredom, and loss of concentration.

Having an Irish name in reality, I've been through that. To be honest, I don't mind, since it makes sense.

The government has access to huge amounts of information on every single one of us, ranging from what shampoo we use to where we drink, what we drink, where and when we shop, what we buy, our interests, etc, etc.

I know that I am on a database (probably several) because of the amount of travelling I do. I have no doubt that various authorities know as much about me as I do !

The strange thing is that nobody ever seems to have access to it at a convenient moment. I had to go through enormous quantities of form-filling on several occasions, when I transferred from one GP to another, when I last signed on at a Jobcentre, when I went back to university. Every time, I had to enter and re-enter bits of information which a simple scan using my NI number would have found in seconds. If the government has all this information, why not utilise it instead of sitting on it.

However, they might have a problem with me, I tend to pay for things with cash to avoid just such a record building up. For no sinister reason, that's just me being paranoid.

 

[Mr Spock]

What has all this airport security for pilots etc. got to do with taking pictures on stations?

Perhaps this should be moved to a new thread.

 

[Turbostar]

Well, I emailed FGW in Plymouth over a month ago with regards to access to Plymouth station to take pics of trains. I just got a reply from them, & their response was to say the least a bit surprising, I wasn't expecting them to be so lenient:

First Great Western
Customer Services Team
FREEPOST
SWB40576
Plymouth
PL4 6ZZ

Tel: 08457 000 125
Fax: 08456 008 363
fgwfeedback@firstgroup.com

www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk



Ref:

Dear

Thank you for your recent email enquiring about photography at Plymouth station. First Great Western welcome rail enthusiasts providing that they follow guidelines that are in place to provide a safe and enjoyable experience in the pursuance of their interest.

It is always advisable to inform station staff of your presence so that they can go about their duties without any concern as to the reason that you are there. We would also ask that you stay clear of the platform edge and behind the yellow lines where provided for safety reasons. Do not climb on any structure, interfere with any platform equipment or obstruct any signaling equipment or signs, which are vital to the safe running of the railways.

We would also ask that you do not wear anything similar in color to safety clothing, such as high visibility jackets, as this could cause confusion to drivers or other railway employees as well as other customers using the station. Similarly, if in a group, we would ask that you do not congregate at busy areas of the platform or concourse such as around customer information points and departure screens or where this may interfere with the duties of the station staff.

We are happy for photographs to be taken on our stations providing that it is for personal use. For any commercial photography, prior written permission must be obtained and a charge may be made for this.

The use of a tripod can sometimes mean that this is a dangerous obstruction to our customers and you may be asked not to use one. Similarly, tripod legs must also be kept away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. Flash photography is not allowed as this may distract the attention of train drivers or dispatch staff and is therefore a potential safety hazard. You are also not permitted to take photographs of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras.

The safety of our customers and staff is paramount and you may be asked occasionally by station staff to move to another part of the station or to leave altogether. Our staff would be happy to explain why and we would ask that you respect this request with goodwill as they have many things to consider including the safety and security of all customers and are authorised to use judgement with this in mind.


On arrival at the station, please make yourself known to a member of the Gateline staff who will be able to assist you. I hope that you have an enjoyable visit and continue to enjoy your hobby for many years to come.

Thank you for contacting First Great Western with your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Mark Webber
Customer Relations Senior Officer

So, there you have it. I guess it pays to enquire beforehand.

 

[jon0844]

That's almost word for word what FCC says, so it's obviously an ATOC-approved text or something from First Group as a whole.

I can understand staff asking you to move, but the bit saying 'or to leave altogether' pretty much allows anyone who wants to show off their 'power' to ignore everything the letter above says and just say something like 'heightened security risk' or some such - even though that was recently lowered.

Next time I'm told about the heightened security risk, I shall ensure I ask in a worried-tone if it's really safe for me to travel at all? Maybe grab hold of the member of staff and say 'I'm scared - hold me!' and see how they react.

 

[T163R]

It's nearly the same as National Rail/BTP's guidelines

 

[IanPooleTrains]

i must admit that my letter from ScotRail is....a little different!

Dear Mr Poole

thank you for your letter of 14 June 2011 in connection with your forthcoming visit to Scotland

I note you intention to visit stations and attach information for the guidance of enthusiasts which may be found on our website www.scotrail.co.uk

Thanks you for taking the time to write

Yours sincerely


But I won't mention the name but that makes it short and simple so they know we are coming and have no excuses although I am sure we are going to run into problems

 

[Bittern]

Never have an issue with ScotRail when I photograph.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Never have an issue with ScotRail when I photograph.

Ah, but this is mine and my brother's first, only and last voyage into Bonnie Scottyland and we wanted to make sure we did everything el perfecto

 

[Dreadnought]

Ah, but this is mine and my brother's first, only and last voyage into Bonnie Scottyland and we wanted to make sure we did everything el perfecto

I have to ask but why only the one trip ever?

I try to get up there at least once a year. The last few years I have done it as a 3 day trip with 2 nights in Glasgow travelling to Edinburgh and around the Strathclyde area.

I need to look at getting up to to the Highlands again at some point for the future.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I have to ask but why only the one trip ever?

Because his railcard runs out soon and he cannot reapply because he is over the age limit although he is disabled, mentally not physically and I have told him he can apply for a disabled one and he says he can't.

Basically, he is coming to the stage that I am at which is paying full whack for tickets and he wants to hit places before it runs out; Acton Bridge, Barnetby, Scotland and so on.

This Scottish trip is going to take out both Glasgow stations, both Edinburgh stations, Dalmuir, Pailsley GS, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling, Motherwell, Carlisle and Newcastle and we have got the permission to film and photograph at the Scottish stations

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm sure he can get a DSB; I think you should look into that - and it would also give you a discount if you were travelling with him.

 

[alexdodds]

This Scottish trip is going to take out both Glasgow stations, both Edinburgh stations, Dalmuir, Pailsley GS, Dundee, Aberdeen, Stirling, Motherwell, Carlisle and Newcastle and we have got the permission to film and photograph at the Scottish stations

Dundee, Aberdeen and Stirling make sure you ask the supervisor/DM first. Scotrail staff I think are strict at those stations.

 

[TicketMan]

I'm not aware of any "rules" at New Street. There are guidelines,but they are just that,not "rules".
I've never heard of the video ruling either - maybe someone can enlighten us on that point ?
I treat New Street the same as I treat other stations - I turn up,take pictures,stay within any boundries,avoid busy places,and generally keep a low profile.

I don't understand how people can quote the Network Rail guidelines on photography at stations, then conveniently forget about the bit asking photographers to announce their presence to staff, and/or sign in... :roll:

 

[GB]

Spot on Guess, double standards me thinks.

 

[curly42]

I must admit that I fail to see the point that Guess is trying to make. There was no quoting of the Network Rail guidelines in my post,I merely mentioned them,as they exist.
I myself take no notice of them at all - it is not illegal to take pictures on railway stations.Fact.
You may well be asked to leave the premises if you do not follow the bye-laws,but that is something else altogether.
Please,do not assume that double standards are at work here - I spent 40 years working on the railway,and am well aware of the various legalities.
If you please,could you elaborate on the (to me,at least) vague point that you were attempting to make ?