Stagecoach Yorkshire and Chesterfield

[Hyebone]

Fun tonight.. The 17:25 was a Yutong

Correct! I was on board... 2 people left at Barnsley and 1 in Sheffield. That particular driver is a friend of mine. Safe to say management are furious.

They cut the extra peak services during Covid and they've never come back, despite there being demand.

I agree. Even with deckers, the service could do with a boost at peak times

 

[ALEMASTER]

could probably do with a timetable tidy up as well as some extra trips as the clockface timetable isn't consistent and the half hourly frequency vanishes in the evening peak.

Buses currently leave Sheffield 06:16 06:40 07:26 07:53 08:31 09:00 09:36 10:06 10:36 11:06 11:36 12:06 12:41 13:11 13:41 14:11 14:45 15:15 15:50 16:20 16:50 17:25 18:03 18:30 19:00 19:30 20:18 20:50 21:35 22:30 23:30.

Ideally it would be every 30 minutes 0600-2130 then hourly to 2330, maybe upped to every 15 minutes at peak time with some Sheffield-Chesterfield shorts added to the Barnsley-Matlock and Sheffield-Wirksworth trips.

It may also be worthwhile at the same time to look at co-ordinating the 2 and X17 for Barnsley-Sheffield to offer a half hourly service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

Potentially some fun and games coming up on the Peak Sightseer Blue route on Sundays from 27 July... on Summer Sundays First bus are extending their 272 beyond Castleton bus station up to Blue John Cavern. There are a a few trips where the 272 and Blue Sightseer are scheduled to meet on Winnats Pass where the road isn't really wide enough for two double decker buses to pass! Mam Tor bus wars?

First bus timetables > https://www.firstbus.co.uk/south-yorkshire/plan-journey/timetables?date=2025-07-27

 

[Teapot42]

I think the problem is they try and do it with the same number of vehicles, which means that when traffic is busier they need to spread the buses out more. Filling the gaps would mean either dead movements from Stonegravels in to Sheffield, or getting Barnsley to run the odd working in the evening peak. They used to do this, but the current MD has already made his dislike of this practice clear in this thread.

I feel the service is busy enough that a frequency increase even off-peak could be viable. It would attract more passengers as it would become almost turn-up and go. Rather than calling everything the X17, have a series of services with a common core. Splitting in to shorter routes makes it easier to add extra trips to handle peak demand / slower journey times.

You could have:
Matlock to Sheffield (Traditional X17)
Barnsley to Chesterfield
Clay Cross to Meadowhall (to serve extra demand on the Sheffield to Meadowhall section)
Wirksworth to Chesterfield Royal (or possibly Bolsover - could do with a fast service anyway)

That gives 3x hourly on the core route, 2x hourly to Meadowhall, 2x hourly Matlock to Chesterfield and taps in to south Chesterfield to Sheffield. You could even extend the X19 to Sheffield to give 2x hourly Barnsley to Sheffield fast - that could keep the 20 minute frequency between Meadowhall and Sheffield potentially.

It would be good to consider the peak extras running up to the Royal Hallamshire to give direct links to the uni. Yes, you can connect via the 120, but that adds to the journey time. A direct link is more attractive to anyone who would otherwise drive.

The service has loads of potential, but the current issue with what operates it is a big risk to damaging the brand and putting passengers off, rather than attracting more.

 

[Killingworth]

Potentially some fun and games coming up on the Peak Sightseer Blue route on Sundays from 27 July... on Summer Sundays First bus are extending their 272 beyond Castleton bus station up to Blue John Cavern. There are a a few trips where the 272 and Blue Sightseer are scheduled to meet on Winnats Pass where the road isn't really wide enough for two double decker buses to pass! Mam Tor bus wars?

First bus timetables > https://www.firstbus.co.uk/south-yorkshire/plan-journey/timetables?date=2025-07-27

It isn't wide enough for 2 buses to pass without mounting the kerbs. Not a few drivers seem to panic when passing without a bus in view! It's bad enough for double deckers passing through Castleton let alone up to Mam Tor. Local residents are already opposed and want them stopped.

 

[Teapot42]

It isn't wide enough for 2 buses to pass without mounting the kerbs. Not a few drivers seem to panic when passing without a bus in view! It's bad enough for double deckers passing through Castleton let alone up to Mam Tor. Local residents are already opposed and want them stopped.

I'd imagine it's not that easy getting a double decker through Castleton in the first place, never mind passing. Those two right-angle bends need cooperation from other traffic and even pedestrians as the pavements are so narrow. Presumably one reason why the bus station is where it is, rather than more obviously sited next to the tourist information, nearer the attractions. OTT for the thread, but this is one place which would be made much more attractive for tourists and locals alike if they just ran a road around the back past Holmefield Farm. The complaints about building in the national park are surely outweighed by the fact the village itself could in effect become pedestrianised, with access for residents and buses only.

I've got to say that a minibus loop shuttle via Edale would make more sense to me as things stand though. I'm sure the view coming down Winnats is spectacular, but the route just doesn't suit a fairly intensive bus operation.

 

[py_megapixel]

It would be good to consider the peak extras running up to the Royal Hallamshire to give direct links to the uni. Yes, you can connect via the 120, but that adds to the journey time. A direct link is more attractive to anyone who would otherwise drive.

I'm certain that, even with the X17 extension you propose, it would be faster for most passenger for the uni and hospital to just get off at Moorfoot and walk. It's a very circuitous route and at busy times, traffic can slow to a crawl along Arundel Gate, West Street and particularly Glossop Road.

The 17:25 51 service from Moorfoot is booked to take 19 minutes to reach Brook Hill. That's exactly the same number of minutes Google predicts if I ask it for a walking route, and it's certainly possible to beat that if you walk fairly briskly and/or get lucky with road crossings.

Of course some passengers may choose to sit on the bus anyway for comfort or because of e.g. a disability that makes the walk difficult, but would it be enough to justify the service?

 

[mk1979]

I think the problem is they try and do it with the same number of vehicles, which means that when traffic is busier they need to spread the buses out more. Filling the gaps would mean either dead movements from Stonegravels in to Sheffield, or getting Barnsley to run the odd working in the evening peak. They used to do this,

Did they?

It really wouldn't be a great idea for Barnsley to start getting involved in the X17, here's a few reasons:
1) Depots sharing routes never works well in practice, its why most operators minimise this
2) Barnsley to Matlock is a very long way for Barnsley drivers to learn, definitely out of their comfort zone
3) South Yorkshire franchising
4) The X17 was part of the Derbyshire Zebra2 bid, Barnsley currently doesn't have electric chargers so any involvement would need charging infrastructure at the depot

There are some interesting and potentially useful suggestions on future X17 development. In the past few years we've extended it to Barnsley and Wirksworth, doubled the frequency to Matlock and increased the evening frequency between Chesterfield and Sheffield so suggestions on where the next development opportunity may be are interesting.

I'm however not convinced on extensions in Sheffield city centre are viable, its already badly congested in the peaks with evenings seemingly worse than mornings.

The peak frequency reflects the traffic congestion experienced. An extra bus to maintain the frequency costs around £250,000 a year per bus, thats an awful lot of £3 fares and more than double the number of kids or concessions.

 

[Teapot42]

I'm certain that, even with the X17 extension you propose, it would be faster for most passenger for the uni and hospital to just get off at Moorfoot and walk. It's a very circuitous route and at busy times, traffic can slow to a crawl along Arundel Gate, West Street and particularly Glossop Road.

The 17:25 51 service from Moorfoot is booked to take 19 minutes to reach Brook Hill. That's exactly the same number of minutes Google predicts if I ask it for a walking route, and it's certainly possible to beat that if you walk fairly briskly and/or get lucky with road crossings.

Of course some passengers may choose to sit on the bus anyway for comfort or because of e.g. a disability that makes the walk difficult, but would it be enough to justify the service?

Walking is fine in nice weather - and the fact this year has been unusually nice might make it seem a more appealing option. When it's wet, cold and / or windy there will be far fewer takers, and for those carrying heavy bags and less able the same applies.

I've walked or driven along or across all those roads during the evening peak and can only recall one time when one of them, Arundel Gate, was at a crawl, and that was due to roadworks. Otherwise they seem to flow nicely. Much has limited car access. The 51 might be timed at 19 minutes, but a sample of services today show typically 12-15 minutes, and that's based on a stopping bus. You'd probably stop once or twice after Arundel Gate with this extension.

On other X17 related things, I assume there is a road closure near Matlock Farm Park today, as none of the services scheduled to call actually did. One Network has a vague 'it will be closed at some point this year for resurfacing' type message.

 

[mk1979]

The latest software updates on the E400EV's are due imminently. It'll take weeks to roll out across the 39 buses but as each bus is updated they will start appearing on the all day X17 workings.

Look out for a feature article in Coach & Bus Week on our Chesterfield operation sometime in August. I understand most branches of WHSmiths stock the mag.

 

[Teapot42]

Did they?

We had a tidy-out of old timetables a while back so I can't double check details, but I do recall the was the odd working on the Sheffield to Barnsley only section marked as being operated by a non-Gold bus. My understanding was these were operated from Barnsley rather than Chesterfield but of course I'm just an outside observer so I may have been misinformed on that.

2) Barnsley to Matlock is a very long way for Barnsley drivers to learn, definitely out of their comfort zone

Agree on this, which is why I also feel the route would be easier to work and more reliable split up. Barnsley to Chesterfield seems viable in terms of route learning.

3) South Yorkshire franchising

Is it still possible to register new routes in the franchising area, or is that on hold until the scheme comes in? If you can prove a service works then surely SYMCA aren't going to turn around and say you have to cancel it in a year or two.

4) The X17 was part of the Derbyshire Zebra2 bid, Barnsley currently doesn't have electric chargers so any involvement would need charging infrastructure at the depot

Again, I'm thinking enhancements on the corridor. It doesn't have to be the X17, it could be the X16 which happens to follow a part of the same route.

There are some interesting and potentially useful suggestions on future X17 development. In the past few years we've extended it to Barnsley and Wirksworth, doubled the frequency to Matlock and increased the evening frequency between Chesterfield and Sheffield so suggestions on where the next development opportunity may be are interesting.

I really do feel it's got scope to become a family of services. I hope it can be expanded even with franchising in place.

The peak frequency reflects the traffic congestion experienced. An extra bus to maintain the frequency costs around £250,000 a year per bus, thats an awful lot of £3 fares and more than double the number of kids or concessions.

Concessions actually seem to be part of the reason it's so crowded at peak times. Those getting off work are trying to get the same bus as pensioners coming home from a day in town.

Is that cost for a bus to do just a single trip in the peak, or the cost to run it throughout the day? If my maths are correct, then that's 320 passengers at £3 every day so it must be for the day otherwise you'd never make money. Is there no way to tie in with a driver already employed on a school service for example?

 

[mk1979]

Is it still possible to register new routes in the franchising area, or is that on hold until the scheme comes in? If you can prove a service works then surely SYMCA aren't going to turn around and say you have to cancel it in a year or two.

Its still possible to register new or revised services to start right up to the day before franchising starts.

Barnsley depot will be franchised so anything operated by that depot will be part of the SY franchise, not ideal to split routes or corridors between franchise and non franchise operations. I've asked what will happen to the 271/272 in this scenario, that appears to be detail that is yet to be fully resolved.

Concessions actually seem to be part of the reason it's so crowded at peak times. Those getting off work are trying to get the same bus as pensioners coming home from a day in town.

The challenge is we receive a lot less than £3 per trip for concession journeys hence we need to carry more than 2 concession or child to earn the same as one adult yet the costs of running the trip is the same regardless of if we carry 20 adults or 50 concessions.

Is that cost for a bus to do just a single trip in the peak, or the cost to run it throughout the day? If my maths are correct, then that's 320 passengers at £3 every day so it must be for the day otherwise you'd never make money. Is there no way to tie in with a driver already employed on a school service for example?

It's a ballpark but you won't get much change out of £200k per year for a peak only bus. Thats why peak only buses rarely work unless they are virtually guaranteed to be full for several trips. We have very few school journeys and those that we do have already interwork so don't stand spare in the evening peak (remember they'll be doing a school journey in the morning peak).

 

[psmith2023]

An idea for next year what about a x17 route from Mansfield to wirksworth season weekends and school holidays service hourly or every 2 hours as this type of service would work as family who go from Mansfield would use it as it's a single straight bus no changes and quicker

 

[m79900]

An idea for next year what about a x17 route from Mansfield to wirksworth season weekends and school holidays service hourly or every 2 hours as this type of service would work as family who go from Mansfield would use it as it's a single straight bus no changes and quicker

The real question is why anyone would want to go for a day out to Wirksworth though. I think the reason the X17 goes there is to serve Matlock Bath rather than Wirksworth itself.

 

[Brightsidio]

An idea for next year what about a x17 route from Mansfield to wirksworth season weekends and school holidays service hourly or every 2 hours as this type of service would work as family who go from Mansfield would use it as it's a single straight bus no changes and quicker

If X17 ever served Mansfield, Stagecoach East Midlands would have to run the Mansfield operations of X17 alongside Stagecoach Yorkshire.

 

[Teapot42]

An idea for next year what about a x17 route from Mansfield to wirksworth season weekends and school holidays service hourly or every 2 hours as this type of service would work as family who go from Mansfield would use it as it's a single straight bus no changes and quicker

Depends what route you are talking. Via Chesterfield isn't that direct, and there isn't demand for another Chesterfield to Matlock service. Via Alfreton and Ambergate is more direct, but very much not Stagecoach Yorkshire territory. Unless you are going to take on TrentBarton and extend to Derby, or go against tendered services and go via Carsington Water to Ashbourne then there isn't much scope to extend any further southwards.

There might be a market via Ashbourne to Alton Towers - Hulleys tried it and it seemed decent, but whether the sums stack up for a higher cost operator like Stagecoach it's hard to know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2025 ==

The real question is why anyone would want to go for a day out to Wirksworth though. I think the reason the X17 goes there is to serve Matlock Bath rather than Wirksworth itself.

Wirksworth isn't too bad, nice town to wander around, a couple of nice shops, the railway. Cromford is also nice to visit. I've seen an X17 - admittedly an E200 - nearly full coming through Cromford from Wirksworth on a nice Saturday afternoon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2025 ==

If X17 ever served Mansfield, Stagecoach East Midlands would have to run the Mansfield operations of X17 alongside Stagecoach Yorkshire.

Stagecoach Yorkshire have served Mansfield in the past, so they wouldn't have to run a joint operation.

While we don't know what South Yorkshire franchising will bring, it might make more sense for Stonegravels to rejoin Stagecoach East Midlands rather than carry on as a stand-alone division.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2025 ==

I've asked what will happen to the 271/272 in this scenario, that appears to be detail that is yet to be fully resolved.

Has there been any decision (or even consideration) of cross-border fares? That is a big concern for us, as my wife does one journey within Chesterfield, then the X17 to Sheffield, then another journey within Sheffield. Currently all covered by a single day or period ticket, but unless a new ticket type is introduced it will no longer be the case after franchising. There is a risk of pushing people away from the bus if they get this wrong.

The challenge is we receive a lot less than £3 per trip for concession journeys hence we need to carry more than 2 concession or child to earn the same as one adult yet the costs of running the trip is the same regardless of if we carry 20 adults or 50 concessions.

Quite. It is a shame that there seems no discussion going on in political circles to do something about this. Maybe free travel off-peak (including the afternoon being peak) is one solution, with a reduced fare for peak time travel? Or just reimburse a sensible amount so operators have incentive to run services that concessionary passengers would use.

 

[JD2168]

The latest software updates on the E400EV's are due imminently. It'll take weeks to roll out across the 39 buses but as each bus is updated they will start appearing on the all day X17 workings.

Look out for a feature article in Coach & Bus Week on our Chesterfield operation sometime in August. I understand most branches of WHSmiths stock the mag.

Hopefully this should mean an end to the Yutong’s appearing on X17, particularly as the school holidays approach which increases passenger numbers particularly on the Meadowhall journeys as standing isn’t allowed on the M1.

 

[psmith2023]

Looks like the electric Doubles have been fixed nearly a full service on them

 

[Hyebone]

Looks like the electric Doubles have been fixed nearly a full service on them

By that I assume you mean for the X17? As there is currently 8 off the road.

Ecclesfield have half-inched our last 12-plate Scania, 15828.

 

[Teapot42]

By that I assume you mean for the X17? As there is currently 8 off the road.

Is that for the software update, or are there still other issues awaiting resolution?

Ecclesfield have half-inched our last 12-plate Scania, 15828.

Someone has a lot of confidence that the E400EVs are now fully fixed...

 

[Hyebone]

Is that for the software update, or are there still other issues awaiting resolution?

I don't know. I can assume that the ones off the road that have seen service recently will be receiving the update, but the ones that have been off the road for a while (80149 and 80142) are for other reasons. (Maybe they'll hit two birds with one stone!)

Someone has a lot of confidence that the E400EVs are now fully fixed...

I hope they're right. It appears that ADL have been engaging with Stagecoach throughout to get the issues ironed out. It might also have something to do with a number of pending vehicle transfers from elsewhere in the Yorkshire fleet. The YN62 Scania saloons at Barnsley should be shifting up to Merseyside with their sisters, there's a few geriatric Trident2s also on their way out (to PVS ).

It's also been noted that the reliability of the Trident2s at Holbrook is preventing 26081-5 being transferred up to Barnsley. Lots happening with Yorkshire at the moment; the best thing that can happen is Chesterfield freeing up their unneeded vehicles following successful updates to the EVs.

 

[Teapot42]

It's a ballpark but you won't get much change out of £200k per year for a peak only bus. Thats why peak only buses rarely work unless they are virtually guaranteed to be full for several trips. We have very few school journeys and those that we do have already interwork so don't stand spare in the evening peak (remember they'll be doing a school journey in the morning peak).

What about the 583A? The afternoon service arrives at Arkwright at 15:42 and the next journey that bus normally does is a 44 at 17:51 from Chesterfield.

It seems feasible to move the 15:18 ex Barnsley X17 forwards a few minutes and have it leave Sheffield at 16:15. The 16:50 departure from Sheffield could move back 5 minutes, which leaves a slot at 16:35. The 50-odd minutes the vehicle off the 583A would have to get to Sheffield seems more than enough, and it would be back in Chesterfield in plenty of time for the 44. Yes, it won't be a double decker, but would provide more capacity at a busy time, and balance the gap in departures better. Ideally the 16:50 would push back further to 17:00, but the knock-on to other parts of the timetable would make things a bit tight.

Adding trips in the morning peak isn't an issue so much as they are already more condensed to allow for the spreading effect the Sheffield traffic has.

 

[Hyebone]

I doubt any major service changes will be made for a good while yet. Both the EMCCA (East Midlands combined county authority) happenings and the South Yorkshire franchising are taking place; they will most likely want to get those over and done with before thinking about something like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2025 ==

In other news, Ecclesfield have taken on Gold 15195 and Beachball 15690 from Chesterfield following re-allocation of the Enviro400EVs to the X17 route. More to follow I assume.

 

[Teapot42]

I doubt any major service changes will be made for a good while yet. Both the EMCCA (East Midlands combined county authority) happenings and the South Yorkshire franchising are taking place; they will most likely want to get those over and done with before thinking about something like that.

Still a couple of years before Sheffield is franchised, and as the X17 is planned to be operated on a permit basis it won't be affected anyway.

As far as I'm aware, East Midlands haven't yet taken over responsibility for buses, never mind come up with any proposals for franchising. In a way I rather hope they don't franchise Chesterfield services as we could well end up in the position where neither authority wants to take responsibility for cross-border services. Yet another reason why Chesterfield should be in SYMCA as originally planned.

I'd be of the opinion that taking decisive action now to improve services is more likely to have longer term benefits. For passengers it means services are established so likely to carry on if franchised. For operators, it shows willing and initiative and hopefully that is taken in to account in the bidding process and not just who comes up with the lowest number.

In other news, Ecclesfield have taken on Gold 15195 and Beachball 15690 from Chesterfield following re-allocation of the Enviro400EVs to the X17 route. More to follow I assume.

Any idea what the eventual planned retention of diesel vehicles is at Stonegravels? They've taken on a few more services since the Zebra bid, some of which use the EVs.

A shame they can't keep the 64 plate Gold buses for conversion to open-top. The ones they have are a bit elderly considering the route, plus there is a lot of scope to expand.
(Another consideration when it comes to franchising for this area - what happens to the Peak Sightseer? Hard to see the justification in franchising such a service, but if there are non-franchised operators in the area, who runs it?)

 

[Hyebone]

Any idea what the eventual planned retention of diesel vehicles is at Stonegravels? They've taken on a few more services since the Zebra bid, some of which use the EVs.

There'll most likely be some sticking around.

A shame they can't keep the 64 plate Gold buses for conversion to open-top.

I'm sure open top conversions aren't on their minds right now; I wouldn't exactly be opposed to this idea however.

The interior condition of these vehicles leaves much to be desired. Whilst phenomenal some 5-10 years ago, it's really showing age now, specifically the carpeted walls, which are now mouldy in some places. If they're being kept, they need a refurb.

(Another consideration when it comes to franchising for this area - what happens to the Peak Sightseer? Hard to see the justification in franchising such a service, but if there are non-franchised operators in the area, who runs it?)

I highly doubt the sightseer will be included in franchising.

 

[syjunkie]

YN11 FFD has now been repainted into "we've got you" livery and fully vinylled.

Does anyone know if the ones previously repainted but not vinylled will gain the vinyls at a later date?

 

[Teapot42]

The interior condition of these vehicles leaves much to be desired. Whilst phenomenal some 5-10 years ago, it's really showing age now, specifically the carpeted walls, which are now mouldy in some places. If they're being kept, they need a refurb.

In a way that makes the case for open top conversion greater. They'd need weatherproof seats etc if converted, so if work needs doing anyway...

I highly doubt the sightseer will be included in franchising.

It would be a shame if franchising meant the end of it, but unless the operators running things after franchising have the ability to run extra services from the depot then I can't see how it could be operated. That's of course assuming franchising happens, and in the way it's happened in Manchester and Sheffield. It's always possible packages of services are franchised but not the depots and buses.

 

[JD2168]

YN11 FFD has now been repainted into "we've got you" livery and fully vinylled.

Does anyone know if the ones previously repainted but not vinylled will gain the vinyls at a later date?

Odd they are repainting the oldest ones whilst newer Enviro 200 MMC’s aren’t being painted including the 3 at Barnsley with Buses for Sheffield branding still on them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2025 ==

I wonder which will be the last Gold specification Enviro 400 at Chesterfield depot?

 

[chessie]

Its been really good to see how successful the Peak Sightseer has become again this year.

However walking past Chesterfield Train Station this morning, I couldnt believe how many got off the train and got straight on to the Sightseer. I know we have had all sorts of special trains in Chesterfield this weekend as a shuttle service to the Gathering in Derby but I dont think they have anything to do with each other

 

[Llandudno]

There is also the hourly, seven days a week service 170 from Chesterfield Station via Chatsworth to Bakewell usually operated by brand new electric double deckers!

 

[JD2168]

A bit of fleet movements have occurred this week. These are:
15696/15706/15707/15715 - Eccclesfield to Barnsley
19199/19226/15660 - Barnsley to Ecclesfield
15646/15193 - Chesterfield to Ecclesfield