dmtransport841
Member
And the E10 only have one set of backwards seating, not two at the front
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Stagecoach Yorkshire and Chesterfield
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Brightsidio
Member
You are not going to believe this, but an Enviro400EV is seen on X17 in Barnsley of places today! It can be shown on Bustimes.org! Could it be the return of electric deckers on X17 once and for all? 
dmtransport841
Member
If 80177 had it's speed this extended, then yeah.
Chesterfield's down to the final 3 non-gold E400's which are 15646, 15692 and 15828.
Brightsidio
Member
Wonder where they'll all go...
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...on the side note, what if X17 ran a few journeys past midnight? It'd be perfect if it were Sheffield to Chesterfield only for those journeys. But what I really want to see is an improved frequency on X17 between Matlock to Meadowhall every 30 minutes or even gain a 2-hourly extension into Leeds to replace the now withdrawn X10 from Barnsley to Leeds.
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Hyebone
Member
There isn't the demand.
The X10 was withdrawn due to not being commercially viable; also, this would be very difficult to operate from Chesterfield depot.
I think generally the service level is about right, my suggestions would be
- sort the fleet out - the Yutongs are too small at busy times
- run the evening service direct Sheffield to Matlock rather than split at Chesterfield
I'm not sure what level of demand there is at night for the Sheffield to Barnsley section that isn't catered for by the 2 or X1/X2.
For me in the evening the problem isn't the X17 itself but lack of connections, particularly the 25 at Meadowhead that stops running at 8pm.
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The MMC Gold buses went to the lake district i think whilst the older E400 Gold buses have gone to Ecclesfield (and do turn up on the 2 from Sheffield to Barnsley!)
I didn't think there was demand for 2x hourly between Chesterfield and Matlock, but it seems I was wrong, as it's busy whenever I've used it. I definitely think more services to Meadowhall, possibly even a triangular Chesterfield > Sheffield > Meadowhall > Eckington > Chesterfield service might have legs.
I also feel it needs to be 3x hourly at least between Chesterfield and Sheffield
Linking Leeds to Sheffield via a reasonably quick service might have more legs, but I really can't see it being an extension of the X17, nor to be honest can I see it being a bus-operated service. As a minimum it needs buses with more suitable seating, but coaches might be better still. The higher motorway speeds on such a run could cut 10-15 minutes off for starters.
I've said before that I'd actually quite like to see an hourly coach service from Matlock to Sheffield (and possibly Barnsley) with very limited stops, a bit like the Red Arrow. You could build a nice network of interurban services in this part of the world, plenty of towns and cities that could do with better fast links. Just needs someone prepared to finance it until it gets off the ground.
psmith2023
Member
They could try a express to Sheffield from Leeds via meadowhall run it every hour and 20 mins just give the driver a half hour break each end so it means near enough a single driver on each bus all day
Statto
Established Member
National Express tried a Sheffield - Leeds serivce, i remember it being part of the Express Shuttle brand (numbered 070) but that didn't last long, only the through long distance routes are left now.
Back in the day there used to be an X32 Leeds - Sheffield but that ended up being withdrawn (not sure when but early 00s), there was an X33 Sheffield - Bradford that hung on for a whilst after the X32 was withdrawn, but even that ended up being withdrawn too.
All were withdrawn because they were not commercially viable.
If a Leeds - Sheffield route starts again, that'll be under the planned franchising.
Back in the day there used to be an X32 Leeds - Sheffield but that ended up being withdrawn (not sure when but early 00s), there was an X33 Sheffield - Bradford that hung on for a whilst after the X32 was withdrawn, but even that ended up being withdrawn too.
All were withdrawn because they were not commercially viable.
If a Leeds - Sheffield route starts again, that'll be under the planned franchising.
Killingworth
Established Member
There's a Northern train from Sheffield via Meadowhall to Leeds every 30 minutes that takes under an hour, about 50 minutes from Meadowhall. An hourly CrossCountry takes nearer 40 minutes.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The X17 works because there's a decent population in both northern and south-western Chesterfield, who live some distance from a train station, who will use a service to Sheffield (even though there's a train roughly every ten/fifteen minutes from 'central' Chesterfield), and a decent sized population through Woodseats who'll use a bus to Chesterfield (especially on market day)
A bus will be overtaken by a handful of cars on the Dronfield bypass but not so much in the urban areas of the route so it's a fairly competitive journey for motorists by the time they've found a parking space
Sheffield to Leeds has the problem that the M1 is attractive to motorists (where a bus/coach will be stuck with lorries as large numbers of cars overtake), with the M621 taking you close to central Leeds
Plus, the "fast" Sheffield- Leeds train (which Arriva ordered 195s for almost a decade ago, as part of it's planned Nottingham -Bradford route) will eventually begin with 170s in December 2025, taking pressure off the Cross Country service and providing a lot more seats between the cities
(everyone will know this already, but for reference, the "semi fast" Northern service from Sheffield to Leeds is limited to two coaches due to the capacity of platform seventeen at Leeds, plus you're competing with Barnsley passengers, so not many seats for people heading to Sheffield)
So it would be a bad time to start any 'fast' Sheffield -Leeds bus, and the time penalties for going into (e.g.) Barnsley/ Wakefield would be significant (since there's no fast roads)
Talking of timings, it feels like the National Express 070 was badly hit by Virgin's Operation Princess
(Assuming that the Pronto would be an extension too far fun though the old X2 was thirty years ago) The only expansion of the X17 corridor that I could see working would be either Clay Cross -Chesterfield- Sheffield (since there's a good population south of Chesterfield, with not train station) or...
...an extension of the 170 to provide a through Bakewell - Chatsworth -Chesterfield- Sheffield service, to tap in to another area of suburban Chesterfield that may attract a few passengers, as well as providing competition for the sheds that TM currently run on their 218 (yes, it would be slower via Chesterfield for end to end journeys but I'm sure Stagecoach could market it, especially with Derbyshire -South Yorkshire routes not fully covered by either area of local government
I feel like there should be a market for a Meadowhall service to areas of West Yorkshire that currently lack one, even if only weekends and school holidays, but that would need to be part of a bigger WY/SY network of coordinated cross border routes
(Whilst on the subject, the National Express/ Flix/ Megabus links from Meadowhall to West Yorkshire seem fairly frequent but it's a real muddle of services - the 070 timetable included all of the other coach services on the corridor so it was easy to see just how many there were - I think NatEx could sell a lot more seats if they were interested in advertising them better today but they only seem bothered about people travelling longer distances beyond Yorkshire)
A bus will be overtaken by a handful of cars on the Dronfield bypass but not so much in the urban areas of the route so it's a fairly competitive journey for motorists by the time they've found a parking space
Sheffield to Leeds has the problem that the M1 is attractive to motorists (where a bus/coach will be stuck with lorries as large numbers of cars overtake), with the M621 taking you close to central Leeds
Plus, the "fast" Sheffield- Leeds train (which Arriva ordered 195s for almost a decade ago, as part of it's planned Nottingham -Bradford route) will eventually begin with 170s in December 2025, taking pressure off the Cross Country service and providing a lot more seats between the cities
(everyone will know this already, but for reference, the "semi fast" Northern service from Sheffield to Leeds is limited to two coaches due to the capacity of platform seventeen at Leeds, plus you're competing with Barnsley passengers, so not many seats for people heading to Sheffield)
So it would be a bad time to start any 'fast' Sheffield -Leeds bus, and the time penalties for going into (e.g.) Barnsley/ Wakefield would be significant (since there's no fast roads)
Talking of timings, it feels like the National Express 070 was badly hit by Virgin's Operation Princess
(Assuming that the Pronto would be an extension too far fun though the old X2 was thirty years ago) The only expansion of the X17 corridor that I could see working would be either Clay Cross -Chesterfield- Sheffield (since there's a good population south of Chesterfield, with not train station) or...
...an extension of the 170 to provide a through Bakewell - Chatsworth -Chesterfield- Sheffield service, to tap in to another area of suburban Chesterfield that may attract a few passengers, as well as providing competition for the sheds that TM currently run on their 218 (yes, it would be slower via Chesterfield for end to end journeys but I'm sure Stagecoach could market it, especially with Derbyshire -South Yorkshire routes not fully covered by either area of local government
I feel like there should be a market for a Meadowhall service to areas of West Yorkshire that currently lack one, even if only weekends and school holidays, but that would need to be part of a bigger WY/SY network of coordinated cross border routes
(Whilst on the subject, the National Express/ Flix/ Megabus links from Meadowhall to West Yorkshire seem fairly frequent but it's a real muddle of services - the 070 timetable included all of the other coach services on the corridor so it was easy to see just how many there were - I think NatEx could sell a lot more seats if they were interested in advertising them better today but they only seem bothered about people travelling longer distances beyond Yorkshire)
Yes, Matlock does well!
To increase the Sheffield-Chesterfield without breaking the half hourly Matlock service and have even headways it'd have to be a 15 minute frequency i guess with 2 extra buses per hour added on a short run. Maybe work those through to Stocksbridge replacing the 57/57a or through to Barnsley replacing the 2 and run jointly with Ecclesfield depot?
So the trick would be finding a way to serve areas not so easily accessible by train. The problem would be that both Sheffield Interchange, Meadowhall and Barnsley (assuming you are diverting via there) all have their bus station next to or very near the Railway station. Buses and Coaches, however, can start and end journeys elsewhere...
Leeds bus station actually seems better sited for parts of the city than the railway station so you could gain there, depending what the final destination of the potential customer was.
It's also £15 for a day return by train, so even if you charged £5 single (assuming not under the cap) and offered discounts for groups then you could take market even if the 'headline' journey time was longer. Google Maps is actually showing 48 minutes by car from Sheffield Station to Leeds bus station at the moment, call it a round hour if calling at Meadowhall and allowing 10 minutes margin. Would probably go out to 90 minutes during the peaks due to congestion though.
Maybe running from Chesterfield to Leeds Bradford might have scope? Offers some intermediate options, picks up traffic on the route that would otherwise need to catch a connecting bus thus making it more attractive? However that's about 1h45 by car, so you'd need to allow say 2h30 for the coach. Even every 2 hours would mean 3 vehicles (I think - not sure of the exact rules on driver breaks and whether that might cause scheduling issues)
Back sort of on topic for Stagecoach Yorkshire, 80177, the EV which made an appearance on the X17, only did a part day yesterday, and hasn't been out today. In contrast, a Yutong, 73087, did a full day on the X17 starting at 6:37, returning back to Chesterfield at 23:42. Pretty impressive battery life! One of the classic E400s which was operating this service (15690) was loaned to Holbrook over the weekend to cover for Silverstone duties, but looks like it failed and hasn't come back. Indeed bustimes is now showing it at a Holbrook bus, so maybe transferred? Only 9 E400s appear to remain in service at Chesterfield, 15646 hasn't tracked since May and 15190 since it was involved in an RTC in March.
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The times I've driven, I've not found it easy to park in central Leeds unless you are prepared to pay quite a premium. You highlight why I think a coach is more suitable - they can keep up with cars much better on the motorway.
I'm not sure seats on the fast train is the limiting factor for demand here. A coach service could compete on cost and convenience. If you can find 'concentrator' locations where local services can feed in to the coach, and thus avoid the need to travel to the railway station, then the convenience for potential passengers increases.
I'd suggest Buxton - Chatsworth - Chesterfield - Sheffield. Potentially taps in to the Manchester market as you can get on to the (much cheaper) Northern service at Buxton. Longer journey time from Chesterfield but the cost saving may be worth it to many. Really opens the Manchester to Chatsworth market. Not sure you are going to harm the 218 much as it would be around half an hour longer, but would open up the Woodseats and wider Chesterfield to Chatsworth corridor.
Buxton to Chesterfield alone would be a cracking open top route.
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Brightsidio
Member
Yeah, those Yutong E12's are a bit small for the X17, especially if you are going from Matlock to Barnsley!
Daft question, but how much cheaper are the Yutongs compared to the E400EV? I reckon that if you improved the seating (maybe losing 4 seats in the process to increase leg room) then enhanced the frequency to every 20 minutes on the core section then they could offer a decent solution.
They certainly have the range and endurance, and I feel single deckers are more accessible and comfortable for a route of this length. (Especially as Stagecoach favour low-height deckers)
I'm not sure if the lower cost of the vehicles (and presumably lower running costs) would offset the extra buses and drivers needed however.
Brightsidio
Member
Well, it depends on what you are going for and the amount of seats you want on the buses. I looked up the prices on Google, and it says a Yutong E12 is £295,000, while a E400EV is at least £500,000. Nearly double that price, huh?
mm3309219x
Member
Bustimes suggests that it had a short top up charge after the 18:03 trip to Chesterfield, as it last tracked at Stonegravels according to the map
Possibly, although the 18:03 seems to be the end of the 'day' duty for that bus, which then goes back to the depot. Often goes out again in the evening, but the duty varies.
If it was for a top-up, then it was a pretty short one, can't have been more than 20 minutes as it got there at 18:40, and was back out for a duty at 19:07 from the coach station. It tracked again at 18:52, but you can't tell if that was it being taken off charging or just the ticket machine being logged off.
It does also show that if facilities are provided for opportunity top-up charging then these buses could be kept out all day on the longest duties. As an aside though, do bus companies allow / expect drivers to attach buses to chargers? I can see there being arguments that this is the job of a mechanic or someone specialised, even though it's a pretty simple operation.
The bus routes did well until the trains were increased in frequency from Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley which sank the routes
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If you were going to Clay Cross on say an X18 you might as well extend through to East Midlands Designer Outlet
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The Yutong’s are ok but short capacity wise, particularly if the trains encounter problems so everyone uses the bus as standing isn’t allowed on the M1, if running all Yutong’s you would have to run duplicates or increase the frequency on the Sheffield to Barnsley section to compensate if this happens
psmith2023
Member
80182 on x17 at the moment only short run so they must be bedding them in slowly
And 80146 and 80153 as well new one for the full length x17 so progress is being made
And 80146 and 80153 as well new one for the full length x17 so progress is being made
Hyebone
Member
One of the unions requested Yutongs be banned from the X17 citing capacity concerns due to passengers being left behind.
To put it simply, Stonegravels do not have enough of the correct vehicles. It seems office pencil pushers are sending vehicles to other depots without a care for the requirements of the X17 route. As it stands, the X17 requires 20 vehicles total throughout the day. We have a total of 11 functional closed-top diesel deckers.
Some have said we may end up with diesel deckers from elsewhere, some have said we'll be keeping diesel deckers. All rumours, the only thing confirmed is that ADL are engaging and actively looking to solve the faults the E400EVs have had.
Rant over...
Surely being able to run a functional service is at least as important as being able to carry everyone? That does make sense though as to why the Yutongs suddenly disappeared from the service.
I do agree with you that moving vehicles away, especially within the division, does not make sense while this problem is ongoing. It's worrying that the approach seems to be muddle on until ADL manage to come up with a fix - which, if it requires any recertification, could take some time.
Which are all getting on and can't really be relied on for any length of time for such a long distance, demanding service. There are bound to be things like MOTs coming up that will take ones off the road and limit the ability to run the service even further?
The planners seem to be doing a good job at the moment though. From what I can glean from the diagrams on bustimes, while there have been / will be E400EVs on the Barnsley run, it's been at times when the motorway is likely to be quiet, so any speed limitation will have less of an impact.
While there are only a handful of them, would it not be possible to use the E300s on the X17 and use the Yutongs on the 63/65 they are normally seen on? I wonder also if the council will permit use of an E200 on the 63 during the school holidays to free up a larger bus for elsewhere.
Hyebone
Member
Not sure about the 63, but the 65 graphs are too long for EVs mon-sat
Only one out today anyway, 27206 was replaced part-way through a 65 yesterday and 27208 was swapped out from the 63s.
Looks like 15690 might have had an issue on the X17 - unless it's just stopped tracking. Does seem intermittent at times.
There was a Yutong did a full day early to late on the X17 recently - possibly a 10 minute top-up charge, but it feels like they have the range for the 65. It's E200s today anyway, which presumably are big enough?
The E200’s are better than when Solos have been used as they are sometimes full after leaving Sheffield Interchange as I have seen myself towards Buxton.
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The first of the StreetLite’s based at Ecclesfield depot has been repainted into the new ‘We’ve got you’ livery which is 39113. Picture below
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That explains why No Yutong’s have run for a few days on day boards, they looked pretty full in Sheffield.
The movement of diesel deckers to other depots (in particular 15194 & 15537) has seemed a little strange with the issues of the E400EV’s. Sure some could be temporarily swapped back from say Barnsley instead of running them empty on the 38 or strangely on 93/95 as seen recently.
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Some Yutongs have reappeared today. Not as many as previously during the day, but the evening service is mainly E12s.
As 15646 only lasted part of the day, and 15690 and 15828 seemed to head back to the depot during the day yesterday and haven't reappeared I suspect there was little alternative. Can't keep running old buses on a service like the X17 and not get the odd failure, not matter how good the engineering team is.
As 15646 only lasted part of the day, and 15690 and 15828 seemed to head back to the depot during the day yesterday and haven't reappeared I suspect there was little alternative. Can't keep running old buses on a service like the X17 and not get the odd failure, not matter how good the engineering team is.
It did look like someone had taken notice of the issues... in the evening commuter peak the Chesterfield bound X17s were leaving passengers behind in Sheffield as the Yutongs were too small to fit them all on!
Incidentally the last 43 of the day from Sheffield on a Friday night is a Yutong that leaves Sheffield full and standing although that does highlight the poorly coordinated timetables along the Abbeydale Road / Chesterfield Road corridors - in the evening the 75/76e, 97/98, 20, 24, 43/44, 218 and X17 between them provide quite a few departures an hour but bunched so still a frequency of about once every half hour (and no service to Bradway after 8pm when the 25 packs up!) so that packed 43 is usually followed by a few empty double deckers!
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I stayed overnight in Chesterfield the other day. I spent half a day sampling Stagecoach’s services. Seems an impressive operation, and every driver I had was friendly.
It’s also the first place I’ve ever been where almost all buses are electric.
Good evening service too, which I’m not used to in Kent.
What is also impressive is that they still have a travel office for enquiries, and even produce timetable leaflets and maps. I assumed Stagecoach stopped this across their operations, but obviously not. The map was slightly out of date, but they had timetables for most routes and even for the new 170.
This is a contrast to Stagecoach South East. No timetables, maps, anything. No enquiry offices any more, since Canterbury’s one closed. That was replaced by staff who roved the bus station, but that seems to have been quietly dropped as I haven’t seen them for months. Folkestone Bus Station is about to close down too, replaced by on-street stops. Sorry, off topic, but thought it shows the contrast with the seemingly decent operations at Chesterfield well.
It’s also the first place I’ve ever been where almost all buses are electric.
Good evening service too, which I’m not used to in Kent.
What is also impressive is that they still have a travel office for enquiries, and even produce timetable leaflets and maps. I assumed Stagecoach stopped this across their operations, but obviously not. The map was slightly out of date, but they had timetables for most routes and even for the new 170.
This is a contrast to Stagecoach South East. No timetables, maps, anything. No enquiry offices any more, since Canterbury’s one closed. That was replaced by staff who roved the bus station, but that seems to have been quietly dropped as I haven’t seen them for months. Folkestone Bus Station is about to close down too, replaced by on-street stops. Sorry, off topic, but thought it shows the contrast with the seemingly decent operations at Chesterfield well.
Fun tonight.. The 17:25 was a Yutong - they seem to be back on the service but in more limited numbers.
The 18:03 is cancelled at the bus on that duty went back to the depot at 16:20 off a 50, so the inbound 44 didn't run. It's bad enough that there is a 40 minutes gap in commuter time, but that one being cancelled not only means a gap of over an hour, but the 18:30 just fails to connect with the 91 at Chesterfield, meaning nearly an hour wait for my wife for the next one...
They cut the extra peak services during Covid and they've never come back, despite there being demand.