• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

HS2 Reset: Evidence to Transport Committee - 9 July 2025 "Total overspend on high-speed rail could be as much as 100%"

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
It seems to me that some defenders of HS2 have an unhealthy attachment to the scheme. So far I have been accused of being intellectually dishonest, ignorant, and prejudiced simply for raising doubts which are based on issues that are plain to see from the business case. You don’t have to have worked up solutions to question whether a project should have gone ahead. The business case suggested viable alternatives were available. But even if the alternatives were limited in effectiveness it does not follow the project should have been implemented. Not all problems have affordable, complete solutions, whether in transport or any other field.

To be honest, I don't particularly care if it's HS2 or some other new line, the main point in making is that whatever we do probably needs to cater for a doubling of passengers since 2009 (quite probably from now too) either at opening or soon after, most other options don't provide that.

A lot of the criticism of HS2 is about how it's been delivered, giving a different name or the new line being in a different route isn't likely to alter the management of that and so a lot of that criticism would be the same.

In an alternative universe where HS2 was dropped in 2011 in favour of another option, chances are there would be those calling for why there were cost overruns, why it was badly managed and why didn't we consider other options (including HS2).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

growse

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2010
Messages
75
It seems to me that some defenders of HS2 have an unhealthy attachment to the scheme. So far I have been accused of being intellectually dishonest, ignorant, and prejudiced simply for raising doubts which are based on issues that are plain to see from the business case. You don’t have to have worked up solutions to question whether a project should have gone ahead. The business case suggested viable alternatives were available. But even if the alternatives were limited in effectiveness it does not follow the project should have been implemented. Not all problems have affordable, complete solutions, whether in transport or any other field.
Whether or not we do HS2 does not exist in some sort of vacuum. If you're advocating that "doing nothing" would give better outcomes, then great! Make that argument! I'd love to hear it!

"Simply raising doubts" doesn't actually contribute anything to the dialogue of how we solve what basically everyone agree are the main upcoming capacity issues the network faces now and it the future. That's why I characterise it as "throwing rocks" and intellectually dishonest.

There's plenty of people out there who disagree with HS2 as an idea, and (to their credit) put actual effort into engaging with the problem and thinking up (what they think is) a viable alternative.
 

slowroad

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2021
Messages
371
Location
Wales
Whether or not we do HS2 does not exist in some sort of vacuum. If you're advocating that "doing nothing" would give better outcomes, then great! Make that argument! I'd love to hear it!

"Simply raising doubts" doesn't actually contribute anything to the dialogue of how we solve what basically everyone agree are the main upcoming capacity issues the network faces now and it the future. That's why I characterise it as "throwing rocks" and intellectually dishonest.

There's plenty of people out there who disagree with HS2 as an idea, and (to their credit) put actual effort into engaging with the problem and thinking up (what they think is) a viable alternative.
Based on the figures in the business case and what has happened since, spending the funds on other projects, solving other problems, would give society a much better return on its limited funds. This is not throwing rocks - it is just pointing out that there is basic hurdle in respect of value for money that we should expect any project that uses taxpayer funds to pass. Some of those other projects might partially address the capacity issues HS2 was designed to address. I guess prioritising the projects identified in the alternatives report would be a good place to start.

If anything is intellectually dishonest it is ignoring the opportunity cost of public funds by considering the case for a favoured project in isolation - as if money was free.
 

Tezza1978

Member
Joined
22 May 2020
Messages
312
Location
Warrington
Based on the figures in the business case and what has happened since, spending the funds on other projects, solving other problems, would give society a much better return on its limited funds. This is not throwing rocks - it is just pointing out that there is basic hurdle in respect of value for money that we should expect any project that uses taxpayer funds to pass. Some of those other projects might partially address the capacity issues HS2 was designed to address. I guess prioritising the projects identified in the alternatives report would be a good place to start.

If anything is intellectually dishonest it is ignoring the opportunity cost of public funds by considering the case for a favoured project in isolation - as if money was free.
Doing so on "other projects, solving other problems" ignores the problem in discussion - WCML being at maximum capacity, M6 at maximum capacity - which are blocking economic growth. We can't spend every £ on schools and hospitals.

Others (not you ) have come out with simplistic ideas like "upgrade the WCML" [we've done that as far as we can, a few passing loops or 140mph signalling/running will cause 10 years of disruption for very little benefit]. Or "build another motorway" [laughable really, would cost as much as HS2 once all the court cases and buying up houses are complete and the environmental impact would be enormous , doubt it would be finished before 2040 - and it still wouldn't help decarbonise freight either]

As I said earlier in the thread - "we are where we are". IMO it needs to be completed to Crewe and then joined up to NPR/ the defacto phase 2b....
 

slowroad

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2021
Messages
371
Location
Wales
I’m
Which projects? Which problems?


You mean the ones that were analysed to give worse value outcomes than HS2?
Nope, they had better BCRs and lower costs, leaving resources over for other projects with high BCRs. From the total budget, that would give higher NPV.
 

ole17

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2015
Messages
19
All transport networks and systems should be built by engineers and town planners, not accountants or politicians at the end of the day.

In USA, their obsession with having cars move freely postwar, led them to "efficient" fast-flowing interstate networks and large grade-separated junctions, because engineers designed them as for high traffic flow. Their local road network are wide with multiple lanes (and less people-friendly), because engineers were much more concerned with traffic flow than people-friendly cities. Because of their more-'developed' road building manual, it is just 'easier' for their state 'DfT's' to just continue widening or building more roads.

In mainland europe as a equiv rail example, there are new rail "bypasses" around small towns in some countries' rail networks to speed up journeys between large and smaller cities, if there wasn't already a HS line. And HSLs were not built in just a decade or two in much of france/germany etc. Germany and switzerland especially continue to have their dedicated freight corridors NOT ruined by having to flight in-between stopping and semifast trains.

A point being, you need a transport network that functions at all levels at different speeds for different purposes. For us, this means when to build any projects put forward, not whether, in order to also keep costs down and people in any job in the next 50 yr.

Treasury has long held back on significant spending on any transport projects (and continues to), so it is right to start off with the most effective first.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
To take on the "other projects" argument, let's look at a list provided by StopHS2, taken from here:


(Note this is from 2011)

Increasing Local Rail Provision
Local rail services play a major part in sustainable transport policies and there are plenty of places on the existing network where investment could make a big difference. If we are going to spend money on railways, there are lots of alternatives to HS2 which would benefit more people.

OK, let's see the examples given.

For instance, the Campaign for Better Transport has a list of 36 railways to reopen, to make the rail network work better.

Some of these (listed as a priority on their website) are things which are likely to happen.
1)
Totton – Hythe – Fawley

We think this line is a #1 priority. Reintroducing passenger services on this recently-retired freight-only line would offer services to Southampton.

This is subject to an open access application and so is possible.

2)
Portishead – Bristol

We think this line is a #1 priority. This seven-mile reopening would connect the commuter town to Bristol, avoiding the busy M5. Update: this project has been given final approval by the government and is being taken forward as part of the MetroWest project.

3)
Cambridge – Bedford

We think this line is a #1 priority. This is part of plans for a reopened, partially re-routed Oxford – Cambridge line. The Bedford – Sandy – Cambridge route is being developed by Network Rail.

(Back to the StopHS2 list)

These include the Leamside Line (Darlington/Newcastle)

This is on the list of projects for the local mayor to deliver, so is likely to happen on a similar timeline to HS2.

and the East West line (Oxford/ Cambridge).

Phase 1 has been running since 2016 with phase 2 open to freight with passengers due to start later this year.

Reopening lines like these would open up job opportunities and reduce the number of passengers forced to travel by car or train via London.

True, however they can happen as well as HS2.

HS2 would need more money spent on London transport but the Northern Hub proposals focuses spending on transport projects in the North.

Northern Hub opened in 2020, with further improvements across the Pennines due to be delivered ina similar timeline to HS2 with some elements being delivered much sooner than that.

92% of medium and long distance passengers in Britain are happy with the time tabled speed of their journeys, according to a recent EU survey - the need is to increase and improve commuter services, not long distance. And the top ten most over-crowded trains are on the Great Western Line into Paddington, not the West Coast Main Line.

Paddington got upgrades via Crossrail and the delivery of the 80x's.

There are still no plans to electrify large parts of the UK’s mainline railway network: if a modern railway is our goal, full electrification should be a priority.

Agreed, however there has been progress on electrification since 2010.

It is no use arguing for both HS2 and these other investments – the money is just not there.

It appears that there was, as many of the things on the list have happened as well. It's also worth noting that first almost all of the intervening time was under the Tories who aren't necessarily as pro rail as other political parties.

I wouldn't be surprised if more of those projects were delivered over the next 10-15 year period (10 years being broadly when HS2 is expected to start operating and 15 years being the same timeline since the linked list was first published.
 

growse

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2010
Messages
75
I’m

Nope, they had better BCRs and lower costs, leaving resources over for other projects with high BCRs. From the total budget, that would give higher NPV.
*All* of them? You're saying that HS2 was the *worst* option?

You're also presumably saying that Network Rail (whose job it is to operate the network and who asked for HS2 in the first place) are fundamentally misguided in understanding their needs and projections?


Given that upthred you proposed increasing capacity by making trains faster and reducing calling points (both of which reduce capacity), I'm..... not convinced that you're right and NR are wrong.

True, however they can happen as well as HS2.

This seems to be something that passes people by. Let's "electrify everything" (or whatever) *and* have HS2.
 
Last edited:

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,095
Location
London
It seems to me that some defenders of HS2 have an unhealthy attachment to the scheme. So far I have been accused of being intellectually dishonest, ignorant, and prejudiced simply for raising doubts which are based on issues that are plain to see from the business case. You don’t have to have worked up solutions to question whether a project should have gone ahead. The business case suggested viable alternatives were available. But even if the alternatives were limited in effectiveness it does not follow the project should have been implemented. Not all problems have affordable, complete solutions, whether in transport or any other field.

You are in venting mode not solution mode.

When presented with facts and logic you repeatedly choose to ignore them and stick to your ill informed feelings. Despite being called out multiple times you continue to trot out the line that HS2's BCR has been cooked.

Given the demand profile on the WCML corridor a 6-track railway catering for 3 market segments (local, regional, long-distance) should be hygiene. Building HS2 only puts us in line with European norm. The idea that the railway is 'highly subsidised' in the context of the WCML, commanding some of Europe's highest train fares and generating whopping premia, is plain wrong. The UK is lagging the rest of Europe when it comes to public transport infrastructure. We are the sick man or Europe once again especially in the last 10 years. We think we are rich country and we can just continue to bask in past glory when in actual fact we are being left further and further behind. That your comfort zone is within the British Isles that you refuse to step beyond is telling. As a country we have to snap out of this Little Englandism.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,262
Are we so cerebrally challenged that we can only deal with one thing at a time?!

Just because the primary driver is capacity doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing other benefits. Most major rail schemes rely on multiple benefit streams to make the business case stack up. Journey time benefits and demand elasticities to journey times are well understood since BR days, and there's no point in not going for a standard European high-speed which *should* have commanded very little marginal cost over a 200km/h railway. Where things went wrong was the blind pursuit for 360-400km/h design speed even in areas where it probably did drive significant marginal cost, and the management of the D&B contracts where HS2 Ltd under-designed and passed too much risk which contractors then costed an arm and a leg for (for example HS2 Ltd should have taken the risk of specifying piling depth itself). And once again politicians specifying unnecessary cuttings and tunnels was a big source of cost escalation, not the scheme output specification.
But 360-400km/h running was baked into the project specification.
They were never going to stop pursuing it once the decision was made in 2009/10 to pursue such high speeds.

The concept that 300kph costs little more than 200kph, as in HS1, isn't really applicable when you start trying to push the frontiers of steel wheel technology in speed terms.

Additionaly, they did this despite the fact that selecting 360kph rather than 300kph reduced capacity, as shown by the Bombardier ETCS studies conducted very early in the programme.
They get 18 trains per hour at 360kph, they would get more like 20 at 300kph (the exact figure will depend on the signalling section length assumed).

The high speed requirement was not only separate from the claimed capacity argument, it actively reduced HS2s ability to meet that requirement.

As for "unnecessary cuttings and tunnels", they might unnecessary in some sort of narrow engineering sense, but they were always going to be needed to make the selected alignment buildable.
Anyone with sense should have known that attempting to cross an AONB on the surface was going to be untenable.
 
Last edited:

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,095
Location
London
But 360-400km/h running was baked into the project specification.
They were never going to stop pursuing it once the decision was made in 2009/10 to pursue such high speeds.

That needn't have been so. The business case was only ever predicated on 330km/h. HS2 was a large and inexperienced organisation and somewhere in the process things got very lost in translation. The 330-360/400km/h increment was always intended as a 'nice to have' and should always have been recognised as such.

The concept that 300kph costs little more than 200kph, as in HS1, isn't really applicable when you start trying to push the frontiers of steel wheel technology in speed terms.

Additionaly, they did this despite the fact that selecting 360kph rather than 300kph reduced capacity, as shown by the Bombardier ETCS studies conducted very early in the programme.
They get 18 trains per hour at 360kph, they would get more like 20 at 300kph (the exact figure will depend on the signalling section length assumed).

The high speed requirement was not only separate from the claimed capacity argument, it actively reduced HS2s ability to meet that requirement.

Alas as soon as all those things became obvious the engineering specification should have been relaxed to only what the business case required. Appears the engineering disciplines forgot that every bit of (substantial) marginal cost should be justified by marginal benefits identified in the business case. Or it could simply be a case that the 330-360/400km/h increment drove substantial marginal costs only became apparent when contractors submitted their costs - a reflection of the D&B contract mechanism used.

As for "unnecessary cuttings and tunnels", they might unnecessary in some sort of narrow engineering sense, but they were always going to be needed to make the selected alignment buildable.
Anyone with sense should have known that attempting to cross an AONB on the surface was going to be untenable.

That's just justifying feudalism. Mansions in the Chilterns are sacred - all the properties in Leagrave backing up to the M1 are fair game?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,262
That's just justifying feudalism. Mansions in the Chilterns are sacred - all the properties in Leagrave backing up to the M1 are fair game?
HS1 demonstrates that you can stay close to roads without requiring mass demolitions. Essentially all of HS1 is within a few hundred metres of a dual carriageway or motorway or is in tunnel.
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,762
HS1 demonstrates that you can stay close to roads without requiring mass demolitions. Essentially all of HS1 is within a few hundred metres of a dual carriageway or motorway or is in tunnel.
Nowhere on the A2 or M20 goes through the middle of a conurbation
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,897
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Derailed: The Story of HS2 is an analysis of the HS2 project, and how it got into the current state.
It is being serialised in 10x15-minute programmes on BBC Radio 4 at 1345 after the news, and available on BBC Sounds.
The first episode today ("The Railwayman") included a large contribution from Andrew McNaughton, the original engineer for the line.
The politics starts in tomorrow's episode 2.
 

growse

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2010
Messages
75
HS1 demonstrates that you can stay close to roads without requiring mass demolitions. Essentially all of HS1 is within a few hundred metres of a dual carriageway or motorway or is in tunnel.
Following the M1 is a reasonable thing to do, but I think you have a hard job making the argument that it's cheaper than the current alignment (given what you'd need to tunnel under).
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
3,326
Location
Nottingham
Following the M1 is a reasonable thing to do, but I think you have a hard job making the argument that it's cheaper than the current alignment (given what you'd need to tunnel under).
The M40 would have been a better choice than the M1
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,624
The M40 would have been a better choice than the M1
Same issues as the current HS2 route has, you would end up with multiple mitigation measures as you went through Buckinghamshire and the Chilterns. The M40 was rerouted from its original planned route at Otmoor which is why it has the big kink in it.
 
Joined
2 Feb 2019
Messages
1,039
But 360-400km/h running was baked into the project specification.
They were never going to stop pursuing it once the decision was made in 2009/10 to pursue such high speeds.

The concept that 300kph costs little more than 200kph, as in HS1, isn't really applicable when you start trying to push the frontiers of steel wheel technology in speed terms.

Additionaly, they did this despite the fact that selecting 360kph rather than 300kph reduced capacity, as shown by the Bombardier ETCS studies conducted very early in the programme.
They get 18 trains per hour at 360kph, they would get more like 20 at 300kph (the exact figure will depend on the signalling section length assumed).

The high speed requirement was not only separate from the claimed capacity argument, it actively reduced HS2s ability to meet that requirement.

As for "unnecessary cuttings and tunnels", they might unnecessary in some sort of narrow engineering sense, but they were always going to be needed to make the selected alignment buildable.
Anyone with sense should have known that attempting to cross an AONB on the surface was going to be untenable.
Has anyone actually done the calculations of the power supply needed and the total cost of the electric energy used for running HS2 train services at these different speeds to see which speeds are affordable and deliverable?

With the power supply needed increasing as the cube of the speed and the total electric energy used and therefore the cost increasing as the square of the speed, small increments in speed lead to big increases in the total cost of the electric energy used and even bigger increases in the power supply needed. Selecting 360kph instead of 300kph leads to a 44% increase in the total cost of the electric energy used and a 73% increase in the power supply needed.

In view of the cost of generating more electricity and the cost of supplying it to the railway I think the trains will run on HS2 at 250kph or even 225kph because it will prove too difficult to supply enough electric power and too expensive in electric energy costs to run the trains at any higher speeds.
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
3,326
Location
Nottingham
I see they're trying to renegotiate contracts now.
High Speed 2 Ltd (HS2 Ltd) and the Department for Transport (DfT) have detailed the specifics and process for the renegotiation of its contracts for the construction of the railway from London to Birmingham.

 
Joined
2 Feb 2019
Messages
1,039
I see they're trying to renegotiate contracts now.

This was covered at the Transport Committee on 9 July. Mark Wild and Lord Hendy gave the following answers to Q32 on this issue.
Mark Wild: I wasn’t there, but, with the benefit of hindsight, the only way to mobilise the project was to remove the risk from the contractors, because, as has been envisaged, the crystallisation of the risk, even with some of the biggest contractors in Europe, could have destroyed their companies. I would have done the same if I was in their shoes. To proceed meant that the contractors could not price the risk. The risk, therefore, had to be priced and retained in the Government. That has subsequently been proved to be an inefficient provision—back to your P50 or P75.
We are where we are. We are now 60% into the project. The reasons to be confident we will get a reset are in three things: first, at 60% complete and with over 75% of the consenting, there is a lot of clarity about the risk crystallisation. The risk problem has greatly reduced. Secondly, with the emergence of a coherent programme everybody can see their part in it, where they will play, and where they are to end. I have engaged with all the CEOs. All of them are willing to engage in a conversation to rebalance the risk and reward. Clearly, we are not going to be able to put all the risks straight back on to them, but those contractors are in the business of getting the job done. They want to take their resources to Sizewell. They want to build national grid. Staying on our job for a long time is not in their mindset.
Thirdly, and the Minister and the SRO might want to comment, all of these contractors work across Government, building hospitals, schools, prisons, the grid and Sizewell C. We are working across Government to make sure the contractors understand they are part of a much bigger game than just HS2. To date, all of the CEOs have given me their firm commitment that in the autumn, when we have a programme, they will enter into a conversation and look at the rebalance of risk and reward. I am not saying it will be perfect, but I am confident we will get there. If we don’t get there I will just manage the contracts anyway. I am considerably increasing the commercial resources in HS2 and the scrutiny. It is not that this is the only chance, but it is now very important to try to rebalance risk and reward and incentivise the contractors to get off this job and get on to their next one.
Lord Hendy: One of the benefits of the ministerial taskforce is that we can share with the Chief Secretary what Mark is doing and where he is with these things. The Chief Secretary is looking at the effective management of costs of projects across Government. As Mark says, we can share this because the same contractors want to do and are doing many other things for Government as well.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,262
Has anyone actually done the calculations of the power supply needed and the total cost of the electric energy used for running HS2 train services at these different speeds to see which speeds are affordable and deliverable?

With the power supply needed increasing as the cube of the speed and the total electric energy used and therefore the cost increasing as the square of the speed, small increments in speed lead to big increases in the total cost of the electric energy used and even bigger increases in the power supply needed. Selecting 360kph instead of 300kph leads to a 44% increase in the total cost of the electric energy used and a 73% increase in the power supply needed.

In view of the cost of generating more electricity and the cost of supplying it to the railway I think the trains will run on HS2 at 250kph or even 225kph because it will prove too difficult to supply enough electric power and too expensive in electric energy costs to run the trains at any higher speeds.
The cost of electricity is not normally considered to be a serious component of running a high speed railway.

Worth noting that a TGV Duplex at 320kph requires a similar amount of electricity per seat kilometre as a Class 390 at ~200kph.

A TGV Duplex trainset (I have the figures to hand) consumes about 22kWh to move a kilometre on French HSLs at up to 320kph. That would imply something like 3520kWh to get the train from London to Birmingham. Now I don't know what Network Rail pays for electricity, but that's about £1100 worth of electricity at my day rate.

Or £2 per seat. And that's with the traditional TGV seat layout from the 1990s, which is restricted by the size of electrical and HVAC equipment of the period - a TGV M would do much better from lower energy use and many more seats on a set.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
Has anyone actually done the calculations of the power supply needed and the total cost of the electric energy used for running HS2 train services at these different speeds to see which speeds are affordable and deliverable?

With the power supply needed increasing as the cube of the speed and the total electric energy used and therefore the cost increasing as the square of the speed, small increments in speed lead to big increases in the total cost of the electric energy used and even bigger increases in the power supply needed. Selecting 360kph instead of 300kph leads to a 44% increase in the total cost of the electric energy used and a 73% increase in the power supply needed.

In view of the cost of generating more electricity and the cost of supplying it to the railway I think the trains will run on HS2 at 250kph or even 225kph because it will prove too difficult to supply enough electric power and too expensive in electric energy costs to run the trains at any higher speeds.

The cost of electricity is not normally considered to be a serious component of running a high speed railway.

Worth noting that a TGV Duplex at 320kph requires a similar amount of electricity per seat kilometre as a Class 390 at ~200kph.

A TGV Duplex trainset (I have the figures to hand) consumes about 22kWh to move a kilometre on French HSLs at up to 320kph. That would imply something like 3520kWh to get the train from London to Birmingham. Now I don't know what Network Rail pays for electricity, but that's about £1100 worth of electricity at my day rate.

Or £2 per seat. And that's with the traditional TGV seat layout from the 1990s, which is restricted by the size of electrical and HVAC equipment of the period - a TGV M would do much better from lower energy use and many more seats on a set.

The other factor is the journey time, as that then had an impact on the number of coaches and amount of staff needed.

The faster you travel the less that costs.

Using the current journey times but running 16 coach trains you would need 240 coaches to run 3tph to Manchester.

Using HS2 journey times you need 144 coaches to run the same service.

Assuming a cost of £100,000 per coach (historic lease costs, but likely to be higher, but I've used this number as it'll result in a lower cost difference), just to run those services with no spare units would cost £24,000,000 or £14,400,000.

Assuming that they run 3tph, 18 hours a day, 360 days a year, with 1,100 seats and in both directions (3*18*360*1,100*2= 42,768,000 passenger seats per day) then the cost difference per seat is 23p.

Likewise, to run an 18 hour service using current journey times would require 90 person hours per member of staff, using HS2 that would be 54 person hours per member of staff.

Over a year you have to have 20 single person staff for the current services and 12 single person staff for HS2, if we assume 3 staff per train (driver, guard and catering staff with an average cost (not just wages, so again probably low) of £60,000 per member of staff the extra cost is 1p per seat.

That means that in a per seat basis you can spend an extra 24p in energy costs (about 12%) and it not actually make a difference.

However, by running faster services you make train travel much more attractive and so you're likely to fill more of those seats. That changes the maths, however, generally there's likely to be some advantage.

Although, the overall difference (even if the electrical cost for the slower train was zero) is not significant.
 

FMerrymon

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2024
Messages
362
Location
Reading
Same issues as the current HS2 route has, you would end up with multiple mitigation measures as you went through Buckinghamshire and the Chilterns. The M40 was rerouted from its original planned route at Otmoor which is why it has the big kink in it.
and its a lot less straight than the m20 and A2 in many other areas too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The cost of electricity is not normally considered to be a serious component of running a high speed railway.

Worth noting that a TGV Duplex at 320kph requires a similar amount of electricity per seat kilometre as a Class 390 at ~200kph.

A TGV Duplex trainset (I have the figures to hand) consumes about 22kWh to move a kilometre on French HSLs at up to 320kph. That would imply something like 3520kWh to get the train from London to Birmingham. Now I don't know what Network Rail pays for electricity, but that's about £1100 worth of electricity at my day rate.

Or £2 per seat. And that's with the traditional TGV seat layout from the 1990s, which is restricted by the size of electrical and HVAC equipment of the period - a TGV M would do much better from lower energy use and many more seats on a set.

Supposedly, the hs2 rolling stock is lighter and more energy efficient, although I can't find any numbers around this.


I would have thought with fewer speed changes throughout the route should help as well over what the Pendolinos manage on the existing lines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That needn't have been so. The business case was only ever predicated on 330km/h. HS2 was a large and inexperienced organisation and somewhere in the process things got very lost in translation. The 330-360/400km/h increment was always intended as a 'nice to have' and should always have been recognised as such.

The need for a higher difference between the operational expectation and the top speed is somewhat driven by the high frequency spec - I believe TGV is permitted to reach 330 when late, but the headways involved here require the ability to bunch up if a service missed its slot. Had they gone for 300 top speed, we might be looking at 275 operational.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Additionaly, they did this despite the fact that selecting 360kph rather than 300kph reduced capacity, as shown by the Bombardier ETCS studies conducted very early in the programme.
They get 18 trains per hour at 360kph, they would get more like 20 at 300kph (the exact figure will depend on the signalling section length assumed).

The high speed requirement was not only separate from the claimed capacity argument, it actively reduced HS2s ability to meet that requirement.

20 would involve further costs though - might even need another 2 platforms at OOC. Would definitely require more platforms at Euston and perhaps an even more complex approach. The specified service schedule wasn't completely full with a couple of 200m and a free slot, so there was room to grow. The main difference between HS1 and HS2 is the slab and that would have still been needed for 300kph and the tonnage expected.
 
Last edited:

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,095
Location
London
The need for a higher difference between the operational expectation and the top speed is somewhat driven by the high frequency spec - I believe TGV is permitted to reach 330 when late, but the headways involved here require the ability to bunch up if a service missed its slot. Had they gone for 300 top speed, we might be looking at 275 operational.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'd still spec the line at 330km/h - the observed and proven top end of existing European high-speed lines - and run the line at 330km/h.

My understanding is HS2 is spec'd for a planning headway of 3 minutes, and at 18tph you still have a spare minute every 10 minutes. The performance risk is only really in the southbound where everything has to converge at various places. When all trains run at the same speed it doesn't really matter if a late-running train knocks subsequent paths out by 3 minutes. HS2 doesn't need to be a right-time railway but it will be a very good PPM railway - this will still be far better than today's WCML performance and HS2 doesn't need to be better than that.

I also understand that the technical headway is at little 2.5 minutes, so the ability for late trains to bunch up is there already.
 

Nottingham59

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
3,326
Location
Nottingham
I also understand that the technical headway is at little 2.5 minutes, so the ability for late trains to bunch up is there already.
Though I believe there is a constraint in the tunnels, where trains are not allowed to bunch up even if they are going more slowly than linespeed. Which will make recovering from delays very much difficult than it would be on open line.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
7,978
Location
Surrey
Mark Wilde gives a simple explanation of the consequences of the project rushing to get started before it was ready which i take to be simply that HS2 had mobilised civil contractors but didn't have a design or the consents to commence construction not a good place to be on a cost plus contract. Mind you I find it hard to believe HS2 Ltd instructed a civils contractor to mobilise fully with that knowledge but that hasn't been explored and why was the design so far behind given billions had been expended on design consultants already from 2016.

So this is why the civils are behind in places by up 2-3 years exactly where and what is on the critical path is not explained. What we can see is that the tunnels (oh the bit that is accused of driving up the costs!!) are actually progressing well and the longest viaduct (well documented on here) is built. He also says Old Oak Common is going to plan so its not all doom and gloom. WIide states construction is 60% complete and design is at 84% whats not clear is that the whole project or just the civils which is what they were talking about at that point in the committee.

Hendy then goes onto say the railway is too fast and Wilde explains that resulted in needing a very stiff structure presumably to ensure the slab track stays where it is and that has had design implications. Thing is the choice was made for 360 km/h over a decade ago and the engineering design principle were defined shortly after so its consequences should have been understood by now. Design management appears to be less than satisfactory between 2015-2020.

The nett impact of lack of consents and design and contractors on a risk free cost plus contract is that the civils costs have already spiralled from 19.5B to 26B which with several more years to go is generating the headline of a 50-100% cost increase. I'd be surprised at 100% as the big civil engineering is well under way now but still a n unhealthy increase.

Wilde also notes the central team is far too large and there hasn't been enough resources focussed on contract delivery so he's adding 150 people to contractor oversight and doesn't want to rely upon consultants for those roles (good). He also suggest some gold plating will be removed and technology first of a kind will come out shame he doesn't give examples.

So we now have to wait till Autumn 2026 potentially before there is a new baseline for delivery for HS2 and with Wilde saying its predominantly a civils project for several more years does now seem like middle of 2030's is a reliable opening window. He does seem jaded by Crossrail trying to mix railway systems and civils as being one of the bigger issues with that job but that was a confined space 10 mile tunnel HS2 is open countryside so I hope someone puts a challenge in about whether sequencing the project based a civils completion is the most appropriate.

Wilde is enthusiastic pragmatic and has the Crossrail track record to know this project will get built. However, you do have to wonder at what's gone before and the vast amounts of money expended on the previous HS2 delivery executives the CEO of which has been the highest paid person in the whole UK government for over a decade how they ever got the jobs and the failure of DfT oversight and scrutiny has been abysmal. Wilde and Hendy don't want to point fingers and there is little mileage in doing so but the outcome is reputation of railway investment has taken a generational knock and the funds to enhance the classic network now remain constrained for at least another five years.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
7,978
Location
Surrey
If only so much of it wasn't in tunnels for silly NIMBYist reasons......
The tunnels are one of the few areas where construction is proceeding very satisfactorily and as they don't need the level of consents open air sections do it hasn't been the subject of local opposition and planning committees making excessive demands which has frustrated progress elsewhere and caused delays which is key driver in cost escalation.
 

SynthD

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
2,014
Location
UK
The concept that 300kph costs little more than 200kph, as in HS1, isn't really applicable when you start trying to push the frontiers of steel wheel technology in speed terms.
What is this, is 300 really pushing technology forward?

Running the trains faster means more people use it, while there's lower capacity. When do these two numbers meet, is there room for decades of growth? Has any railway with a single operating speed (all trains at the same average speed on a common section) chosen to improve capacity by going slower?

This thread about HS1's poor BCR makes me wonder whether we worry too much about a BCR being over 1, when we like the results of something apparently below 1.
 

Top