Northern Class 331 East:West unit swap

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's already making me angry and upset hearing the News. This better not be the case.

It'd be a shame to see Leeds-Ilkley/Skipton services become 331 exclusive, with 333s no longer working them at all.

What if I want to get a 333 to Ilkley or Skipton from Leeds?

What about it? Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if that's what you want. I want to go to Euston on a Pendolino still operated by Virgin. Unfortunately, I can't. That's just how the world works. Far more pressing matters in life to be "angry and upset" about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

2+2 seating and tables in place of the discomfort of a 333.

Agree with this. As a regular user - lovely as the 333s are compared to a lot of Northern stock and whilst I'll miss "Welcome to the Skipton train" the idea of longer trains, with more (and more usable) seats, tables and more standing room appeals far more.

Even during the day the Leeds - Skipton line is getting busier and busier with shoppers and whatnot, so creating more room to service and grow that demand further makes a lot of sense to me. Not to mention the massive step change in quality it will enable at peak times when trains are often standing room only from Bingley onwards. Here's to more (and better) seating!

Yes, also agreed. Unfortunately over here in Salford we've got the opposite with majority 331 worked Blackpool Manchesters set to become almost all 323s!

 

[47434]

As has been stated many, many times previously:

• Services to Bradford are to be 333
• Services to Doncaster are to be 333
• Services Leeds to Ilkley/Skipton are to be 331x2

Units will remain coupled throughout the day.

333's will continue to operate Skipton/Ilkley - Leeds. There aren't enough 331's to cover all diagrams.

 

[JDAWC]

I don't know if this has been discussed on here before but is anyone aware what will happen with the south Manchester electric services. Already at the moment no Crewe or Stoke services are actually booked as 331s but sometimes they randomly turn up on these routes. One of the two Alderley Edge shuttles is booked and is always a 331 with the other interchanging between 331s and 323s. It's starting to beg the question of some Piccadilly drivers potentially lapsing on traction knowledge moving forward. Even link 1 drivers at Piccadilly who sign to Preston will be losing alot of 331 work now with the blackpools pretty much all becoming 323s. As things stand going forward Piccadillys only actual booked work on 331s with be on around 10-20 services dependent on link which considering Piccadilly has around 90 SX diagrams with 2-6 services per diagram usually this is slightly worrying.

 

[p1ash]

The NW currently has 18 331s & 20 323s diagrammed daily.
Losing circa 7 331s to Yorkshire would suggest that 27 323s will then be required from 34.
Historically, 5 323s are generally out of service at a time (from the original fleet of 17) so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to allow 7 323s out at any one time from the new larger fleet, meaning that 27 323s could be diagrammed.
There’s circa 16 Blackpool diagrams, so if they are fully covered by 323s, that would leave 11 323s on other services.
This looks like a like-for-like carriage swap…

 

[JDAWC]

The NW currently has 18 331s & 20 323s diagrammed daily.
Losing circa 7 331s to Yorkshire would suggest that 27 323s will then be required from 34.
Historically, 5 323s are generally out of service at a time (from the original fleet of 17) so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to allow 7 323s out at any one time from the new larger fleet, meaning that 27 323s could be diagrammed.
There’s circa 16 Blackpool diagrams, so if they are fully covered by 323s, that would leave 11 323s on other services.
This looks like a like-for-like carriage swap…

I thought most but not all of the Blackpools were becoming 323s? 11 323 diagrams for other services is not a lot at all. Stoke require 3, Crewe requires 4, Hadfield requires 3 and Alderley Edge requires 1. That’s your remaining 11 on just Manchester electrics leaving none for Lime St. or this proposed Wigan NW-Stalybridge service which is supposed to be a 323 afaik.

 

[p1ash]

If all 16 Blackpools are 323, then the other NW diagrams would be covered by 11 323s, 11 331/0 & 10 331/1… (after ones on maintenance)

Or if 8 331/0 are on Blackpools releasing 8 323s…. Meaning that half (of the 16) Blackpools are 331/0s and the other half 323s…

Being completely fair with allocations - this leaves the NW with c.20 331s, and Yorkshire with c.16 331s… (exc. ones on maintenance).

Lets see what the diagrams say…

But there doesn’t seem to be much slack in the NW electric fleet… unless Andy Burnham can get some of the spare 9 323s (which apparently Northern can’t afford)

 

[Geeves]

There's a 331 going onto the Glossop line all day when the issues have been ironed out.

 

[JDAWC]

There's a 331 going onto the Glossop line all day when the issues have been ironed out.

Interesting, I was told the issue with that was 4 car units at Dinting as the Conductor cannot see the whole PTI clearly. 3 cars can run on the line and there has been 3 cars on occasion so I wonder what the issues are.

 

[Harvey B]

Being completely fair with allocations - this leaves the NW with c.20 331s

Are you including the 4 car units in this?

 

[childwallblues]

Currently around the Liverpool area they use 331/1 on Blackpool North (3), Manchester Airport (4) Wigan North Western (1) and Wigan to Victoria (1). Also there are 331/0 on Wigan North Western (3) and the peak Manchester Victoria plus 1 x 323 on Wigan North Western. Some three and four car 331s interwork in the peak hour

 

[Harvey B]

Are there anymore 331s due to come over? & how many will be coming?

 

[jonnyfan]

Are there anymore 331s due to come over? & how many will be coming?

I think there are 10 currently, 2 more are needed before the May timetable change. There will be 3 diagrams running as double 331s.

May 2025 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you send through a copy of the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2025 timetable, many thanks. Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[reecestrains]

In that case, I presume it'll be 010 and 011 coming over.

 

[JDAWC]

I think there are 10 currently, 2 more are needed before the May timetable change. There will be 3 diagrams running as double 331s.

May 2025 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you send through a copy of the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2025 timetable, many thanks. Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Seems to be a lot more 331s running about south of Piccadilly. Extra peak time Stoke in each direction as well as 21.43 off Picc to Stoke, one on the Crewes all day as well as 22.06 off Picc to Crewe and now both Alderleys are 331s by the looks of things. Great news for me!

 

[oscarthecat92]

I think there are 10 currently, 2 more are needed before the May timetable change. There will be 3 diagrams running as double 331s.

May 2025 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you send through a copy of the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2025 timetable, many thanks. Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

How many of the Leeds - Skipton and Leeds - Ilkley's will be 6 car then, would have thought this would need more than 3 diagrams?

 

[Geeves]

How many of the Leeds - Skipton and Leeds - Ilkley's will be 6 car then, would have thought this would need more than 3 diagrams?

Yes as Johnny fan says 3 6 car 331 diagrams, all starting and ending at Skipton sidings, 0625, 0701 and 0715 off the sidings. One of the diagrams swaps the units at Neville Hill so from 0900 to roughly 1400 there will be two 6 car trains running round.

 

[xotGD]

Yes as Johnny fan says 3 6 car 331 diagrams, all starting and ending at Skipton sidings, 0625, 0701 and 0715 off the sidings. One of the diagrams swaps the units at Neville Hill so from 0900 to roughly 1400 there will be two 6 car trains running round.

Looks like the 17:19 Leeds - Skipton is booked a 6-car, which is nice. Hopefully this will throw up more cheap Advances for the higher capacity service.

 

[Adam0984]

Looks like the 17:19 Leeds - Skipton is booked a 6-car, which is nice. Hopefully this will throw up more cheap Advances for the higher capacity service.

I hope they're sensible with the allocation of the number of advance tickets and don't base it on a 6 car, say they allocated 50% to advance tickets at various price levels and was then short formed of a 3 car you are then in trouble as the train will be pretty much full with the people who can only travel on that train without the flexible tickets wanting to board

 

[xotGD]

I hope they're sensible with the allocation of the number of advance tickets and don't base it on a 6 car, say they allocated 50% to advance tickets at various price levels and was then short formed of a 3 car you are then in trouble as the train will be pretty much full with the people who can only travel on that train without the flexible tickets wanting to board

We already have that issue when the 05:49 Carlisle - Leeds is a 2-car rather than a 4-car. Passengers with Advances have to let the 07:44 Skipton - Leeds depart with empty seats and then have to squeeze onto the 158.

 

[Harvey B]

I think there are 10 currently, 2 more are needed before the May timetable change. There will be 3 diagrams running as double 331s.

May 2025 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you send through a copy of the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2025 timetable, many thanks. Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Only 2 more units due over? Are you aure about that?

Isn't the final number supposed to be 16 units? What happened to the plan of getting 16?

 

[jonnyfan]

Only 2 more units due over? Are you aure about that?

Isn't the final number supposed to be 16 units? What happened to the plan of getting 16?

12 is the total allocated over in Leeds according to the diagrams I've linked to (up from 10). Maybe there will be further changes in December.

 

[Geeves]

Only 2 more units due over? Are you aure about that?

Isn't the final number supposed to be 16 units? What happened to the plan of getting 16?

Just to add to Jonnyfan, a few things likely affecting the amount going east including additional drivers on 323s required, more 331s on the Blackpool work vs the total swap that was planned. Also 323s that came from WM have required more work than previously thought including units not yet seeing passenger service like 323 243

 

[Halish Railway]

331002 and 331008 are doing 6 carriage test runs on the triangle tonight.

 

[xotGD]

Has anyone spotted any paths for movements of extra 331s to Yorkshire?

 

[Adam0984]

Rumours are that initially there will be only 1 6 car diagram which would push back any moves of additional sets to a later date

 

[Geeves]

You can imagine they are going wait and see how the roll out of all the extra 323s go on the Manchester - Blackpool work goes before the any more 331s depart for sunnier eastern climbs. The 323s have had quite a few "sit down" incidents while out and about recently.

 

[childwallblues]

You can imagine they are going wait and see how the roll out of all the extra 323s go on the Manchester - Blackpool work goes before the any more 331s depart for sunnier eastern climbs. The 323s have had quite a few "sit down" incidents while out and about recently.

I suffered 323205 and 323228 on the1354 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport on 24 April. Problems on arrival at Kirkham & Wesham which the driver resolved however more problems at Preston which blocked Platform 2 which resulted in the following Liverpool train being diverted to platform 5, not the easiest transfer at this station.

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 0N36 0647 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Allerton Depot | 14/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 0N36 0647 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Allerton Depot on 14/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q17 1117 Allerton Depot to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 14/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q17 1117 departure from Allerton Depot to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 14/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[david l]

331011 not in use today, 331010 currently on 21.17 MIA-Blackpool N.

 

[childwallblues]

There is a booked movement from Allerton to Neville Hill tomorrow.
331010 was on Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services this morning paired with 023.